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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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 Posted: Sat Jul 04, 2009 6:31 pm Post subject: Sarkozy says burqas are 'not welcome' in France |
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PARIS (AP) � President Nicolas Sarkozy declared Monday that the Islamic burqa is not welcome in France, branding the face-covering, body-length gown as a symbol of subservience that suppresses women's identities and turns them into "prisoners behind a screen."
But there was a mixed message in the tough words: an admission that the country's long-held principle of ethnic assimilation � which insists that newcomers shed their traditions and adapt to French culture � is failing because it doesn't give immigrants and their French-born children a fair chance.
In a high-profile speech to lawmakers in the historic chateau at Versailles, Sarkozy said the head-to-toe Muslim body coverings were in disaccord with French values � some of the strongest language against burqas from a European leader at a time when some Western officials have been seeking to ease tensions with the Muslim world.
"In our country, we cannot accept that women be prisoners behind a screen, cut off from all social life, deprived of all identity," Sarkozy said to extended applause of the lawmakers gathered where French kings once held court.
"The burqa is not a religious sign, it's a sign of subservience, a sign of debasement � I want to say it solemnly," he said. "It will not be welcome on the territory of the French Republic."
Some Muslim leaders interpret the Quran to require that women wear a headscarf, niqab or burqa in the presence of a man who is not their husband or close relative.
France is home to Western Europe's largest population of Muslims, estimated at about 5 million. A small but growing group of French women wear burqas and niqabs, which either cloak the entire body or cover everything but the eyes.
Critics fear the issue of full-body coverings, which only involves a tiny minority of French Muslims, could increase discrimination against all Muslims who display their faith in any way.
Dalil Boubakeur, director of the largest Paris mosque, said Sarkozy's push to keep out the burqa is typical of French culture, but worried that he might inflame tensions with Muslims.
The president wanted to show that "the rules of life in France � and that you can just bring in unjustified traditions," Boubakeur said.
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http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5gTDeMBzBjdcCOuhzymBE1QDK9eIQD98VVGT83
Women who wear it are unlikely to be doing so out of their own desire. If you ban it, then the women who are currently being forced or otherwise coerced into wearing it will simply stay in their homes.
The muslim "communities" in Europe are actually worse in some respects than muslim nations:
http://www.stockholmnews.com/more.aspx?NID=3522
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Nalin Pekgul confirmed that this was in line also with her own experience from Tensta, a suburb in Stockholm. Some people of the community acts like �thought police�, trying to control the behavior of other residents. Especially women and young girls are exposed and it is not uncommon that young girls are forced to marry with men they do not know.
�Some said in the interviews that they had lived a freer life in their home country�, Magnus Ranstorp said, and Nalin Pekgul once again agreed.
�I was able to wear shorter dresses in Kurdistan than I can do in Tensta. Men from the garage mosques harass you and say bad things about me to my children�, Pekgul said.
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RJjr
Joined: 17 Aug 2006
Location: Turning on a Lamp
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| Posted: Sun Jul 05, 2009 7:07 am Post subject: |
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| As long as public nudity in France is punishable by a 10,000 Euro fine or one year in jail, Sarkozy is just another Christian hypocrite. |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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| Posted: Sun Jul 05, 2009 7:58 am Post subject: |
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| RJjr wrote: |
| As long as public nudity in France is punishable by a 10,000 Euro fine or one year in jail, Sarkozy is just another Christian hypocrite. |
Ah, no. France will be a majority muslim country by 2020, even if all muslim immigration halted today (according to Stanford's Sam Harris). They're freaked out about the prospects of this. They've tried the welfare free-everything model and merely aggravated the problem of low levels of assimilation. Now, the state will take a more heavy hand. This will be the first of many attempts by the state to shape the muslim population into something that the French will identify as marginally French. In fact, this is similar to the Turkish model of maintaining secularism in a large muslim population. Until recently, Turkish women could not wear the headscarf in a public building.
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| Christian hypocrite |
http://www.brusselsjournal.com/node/3591
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"(Arabic is the) language of the future, of science and of modernity," and expressed the hope that "more French people share in the language that expresses great civilizational and spiritual values."
"We must invest in the Arabic language (because) to teach it symbolizes a moment of exchange, of openness and of tolerance, (and it) brings with it one of the oldest and most prestigious civilizations of the world. It is in France that we have the greatest number of persons of Arabic and Muslim origin. Islam is the second religion of France," |
Arabic as the language of science and the future.. Yes, Sarkozy is silly. |
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RJjr
Joined: 17 Aug 2006
Location: Turning on a Lamp
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| Posted: Sun Jul 05, 2009 8:47 am Post subject: |
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| mises wrote: |
| low levels of assimilation. Now, the state will take a more heavy hand. |
Well, it's not the first time Europeans have done it to non-Christian religious people.
http://www.newyorksocialdiary.com/socialdiary/2005/05_31_05/images/P1080127.jpg
| mises wrote: |
| In fact, this is similar to the Turkish model of maintaining secularism in a large muslim population. Until recently, Turkish women could not wear the headscarf in a public building. |
A lot of people in the Western world consider it as "secularism vs. Islam" when it isn't. It's a "Muslim vs. Muslim" debate on their conflicting interpretations of the Koran. Here's a cut and paste from an e-mail a female Turkish friend of mine recently wrote during an e-mail to me:
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| there is not any rule of turban/scarf in koran but bigot persons who have no mind and logic and who admirer of Iran supports turban/scarf. |
And she's very much a Muslim. |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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| Posted: Sun Jul 05, 2009 9:13 am Post subject: |
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| Well, it's not the first time Europeans have done it to non-Christian religious people. |
Sure isn't. I'm sure they can be kept at bay via pejoratives and clever references to the past. Good luck.
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| there is not any rule of turban/scarf in koran but bigot persons who have no mind and logic and who admirer of Iran supports turban/scarf. |
That is true. The head/body covering is from tribal Arab traditions that pre-date islam. In the koran, allah (hakuna matadda) demanded women dress with modesty. The hadiths get into more detail but aren't clear.
But you've missed the point of the OP. This is a sign that France is dropping the voluntary assimilation model and moving more towards a forced (or pushed) assimilation model. This will, of course, make things worse. The population will be further alienated, fractured along sane/insane lines and vulnerable to violent activity. |
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RJjr
Joined: 17 Aug 2006
Location: Turning on a Lamp
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| Posted: Sun Jul 05, 2009 11:17 am Post subject: |
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| mises wrote: |
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| Well, it's not the first time Europeans have done it to non-Christian religious people. |
I'm sure they can be kept at bay via pejoratives and clever references to the past. Good luck. |
I'm not going to keep them at bay or even try to. A leopard can't change its spots. Not for me. Not for Sarkozy either. |
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