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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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 Posted: Sun Jul 05, 2009 10:20 pm Post subject: |
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| ubermenzch wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
I've worked with many people in many situations. Not a single person that I knew ever publicly proclaimed their sexuality whether hetero or homo. This is a private matter, so keep it private. It's nobody else's business so don't make it theirs.
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Of course people don't go around publicly proclaiming their sexuality. But if you think about it for more than a passing second, you'll realize there are subtler ways of getting the news out than blaring it out on a megaphone. In every workplace I've ever been employed at, heterosexuality is basically smeared in my face. It cannot be escaped. And this is to be expected. I just don't like your pretending it's as easy as "keeping it a private matter" and not making it other people's business.
Your posts betray an immense ignorance. |
So personal experience is now ignorance? And yes there are "subtler ways of getting the news out". There was however, no subtlety in Mr. Choi's approach. He practically dared the army to cashier him. Given military policy, they had no choice.
And let's not get into a discussion of whether or not this should be the military's policy...it's academic at best.
It's easy keeping it a private matter. I have never discussed anything pertaining to my sex life with my co-workers either here or back in the West. Ever. |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Sun Jul 05, 2009 10:32 pm Post subject: |
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| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| Fox wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| He made the choice to be discriminated against. Being gay or for that matter straight is not something you have to publicize to the entire world. |
Others also made the choice to discriminate against him. It's not like this policy is some unalterable fact of life, people are chose to implement, are choosing to allow it to continue exist, and are choosing to enforce it. These people are actively discriminating against homosexuals. Our society stopped tolerating that in it's private sector, why on Earth should we tolerate it in the military sector? |
See, that's not the thing though. We can all wave our hands in horror "oh why should we tolerate this>" |
We can and should, yes. Choi made a choice here, but so did the people who oversee our military and dictate military policy. It's time to let them know their choice was not okay. |
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Xerapis
Joined: 19 Nov 2007
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| Posted: Sun Jul 05, 2009 10:35 pm Post subject: |
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TheUrbanMyth: You have quite obviously never served in the US military.
Army life in the barracks can be very easily compared to a bunch of frat boys living in a dormitory together. The heterosexuality is very much in your face, and inescapable.
If you don't have a girlfriend or don't hit the titty bar every chance you get, you will be labeled a homo by your coworkers. Aren't interested in watching porn all the time and perusing Maxim, FHM, etc: homo. Don't physically evaluate every passing female: homo.
Anecdotal: Just arrived in Korea. Being shown around by new boss and subordinate. Invited to a club apparently notorious for easy chicks. Politely declined. Asked directly, by my new boss, in complete violation of Army regulation "What are you, gay?". I responded that that question was not permitted. Response from him: "Only gays say that"
Civilians just don't know, sorry. You clearly didn't. Neither does any other person signing up to join the military unless a close friend or family member warns them. It's reasonable to assume that Mr Choi had no idea before becoming 2LT Choi. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Sun Jul 05, 2009 11:05 pm Post subject: |
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| Xerapis wrote: |
TheUrbanMyth: You have quite obviously never served in the US military.
Being Canadian I shall have to say I have not.
Army life in the barracks can be very easily compared to a bunch of frat boys living in a dormitory together. The heterosexuality is very much in your face, and inescapable.
As I have two brother-in-laws who are in the Canadian military, I am very aware that this is the case for many people...but not all.
If you don't have a girlfriend or don't hit the titty bar every chance you get, you will be labeled a homo by your coworkers. Aren't interested in watching porn all the time and perusing Maxim, FHM, etc: homo. Don't physically evaluate every passing female: homo.
See above. And would it really be that hard for a gay person to go along on a few trips with his "coworkers"?
Anecdotal: Just arrived in Korea. Being shown around by new boss and subordinate. Invited to a club apparently notorious for easy chicks. Politely declined. Asked directly, by my new boss, in complete violation of Army regulation "What are you, gay?". I responded that that question was not permitted. Response from him: "Only gays say that"
Civilians just don't know, sorry. You clearly didn't. Neither does any other person signing up to join the military unless a close friend or family member warns them. It's reasonable to assume that Mr Choi had no idea before becoming 2LT Choi. |
Nice assumption about me, but wrong.
As for Mr. Choi, that policy of don't ask don't tell has been around for a long time and every now and then gets in the headlines. He'd have to been living under a rock not to be aware that the military discriminates against gays. |
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ubermenzch
Joined: 09 Jun 2008
Location: bundang, south korea
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| Posted: Sun Jul 05, 2009 11:12 pm Post subject: |
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| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
So personal experience is now ignorance? |
I guess what I am charging is an ignorance of your own personal experience. You suggest that all of your workplaces have housed you in a void of sexuality. Could someone please inform me when this poster is prepared to be serious?
And then suggesting that such a thing is possible when in the U.S. military and living in the barracks! |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Sun Jul 05, 2009 11:13 pm Post subject: |
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| Fox wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| Fox wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| He made the choice to be discriminated against. Being gay or for that matter straight is not something you have to publicize to the entire world. |
Others also made the choice to discriminate against him. It's not like this policy is some unalterable fact of life, people are chose to implement, are choosing to allow it to continue exist, and are choosing to enforce it. These people are actively discriminating against homosexuals. Our society stopped tolerating that in it's private sector, why on Earth should we tolerate it in the military sector? |
See, that's not the thing though. We can all wave our hands in horror "oh why should we tolerate this>" |
We can and should, yes. Choi made a choice here, but so did the people who oversee our military and dictate military policy. It's time to let them know their choice was not okay. |
Tonto and The Lone Ranger were out riding, when suddenly a bunch of Native Americans (being PC here) came riding up on them from all sides. There was no way out. The Lone Ranger turns to Tonto and says "Well, Tonto, it looks like we have had it this time."
Tonto turns to the Lone Ranger and says "What do you mean, WE?"
I'll have to echo Tonto's question here. Not being American I doubt that I have very much influence on U.S military policy. But that begs the question...what are YOU doing?
And let's be serious. He didn't get in trouble for being gay, he got in trouble for going on television and politicizing it.
Last edited by TheUrbanMyth on Sun Jul 05, 2009 11:23 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Sun Jul 05, 2009 11:17 pm Post subject: |
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| ubermenzch wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
So personal experience is now ignorance? |
I guess what I am charging is an ignorance of your own personal experience. You suggest that all of your workplaces have housed you in a void of sexuality.
I am saying that I neither discussed my personal life nor participated in the discussion of the personal lives of other people.
Could someone please inform me when this poster is prepared to be serious?
And then suggesting that such a thing is possible when in the U.S. military and living in the barracks! |
Choi managed to hide the fact that he was gay for more than three years.
Last edited by TheUrbanMyth on Sun Jul 05, 2009 11:25 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Sun Jul 05, 2009 11:23 pm Post subject: |
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| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| I'll have to echo Tonto's question here. Not being American I doubt that I have very much influence on U.S military policy. |
The "we" I refer to is American citizens; if you are not one, you are correct in not including yourself.
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| But that begs the question...what are YOU doing? |
Making my opinion known to those I discuss the subject with, questioning my acquaintances views on the matter in hopes of challenging those who support the current rules viewpoint and perhaps changing their mind, and trying to give my support to legislative representatives who agree with my views. I would be hard pressed to do much more from the South Korean mountains, and if every citizen were to do as much, this issue would long ago have been resolved. |
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ubermenzch
Joined: 09 Jun 2008
Location: bundang, south korea
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| Posted: Mon Jul 06, 2009 1:00 am Post subject: |
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Random samplings (ramplings!) from TheUrbanMyth's posts:
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| And I don't buy the nonsense about him being forced to lie for more than a year. What, are people repeatedly coming up to him and asking him "are you gay?" |
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| He made the choice to be discriminated against. Being gay or for that matter straight is not something you have to publicize to the entire world. |
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| It's easy keeping it a private matter. I have never discussed anything pertaining to my sex life with my co-workers either here or back in the West. Ever. |
In my personal experience, it is not "easy" keeping it a private matter. Perhaps for the less social among us, it presents no challenge. But in all of my previous workplaces I've been cornered into a position of either coming out, or lying. IN ALL OF MY PREVIOUS 17 WORKPLACES. And 'cornered' is a verb I use quite deliberately. Of course I don't have people coming up to me and asking, "are you gay?" But as another poster pointed out, when working with a group of young males, almost as much is implied by what one omits from conversation and from what one says. For example, I'm working in the back with two guys as a kitchen stewart for a big hotel. It's down time as we are waiting for the banquet to begin. As might be expected (though it would doubtless come as quite a shock to TheUrbanMyth) the bored young males began to chat about girls, and having sex with girls, and you know where this is going. Are you suggesting, wise poster, that such a situation should present no challenge for the gay co-worker who both wishes to be truthful AND wishes for his sexuality to remain secret?
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| ubermenzch wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
So personal experience is now ignorance? |
I guess what I am charging is an ignorance of your own personal experience. You suggest that all of your workplaces have housed you in a void of sexuality.
I am saying that I neither discussed my personal life nor participated in the discussion of the personal lives of other people.
Could someone please inform me when this poster is prepared to be serious?
And then suggesting that such a thing is possible when in the U.S. military and living in the barracks! |
Choi managed to hide the fact that he was gay for more than three years. |
What I meant is that you are downplaying the in-your-face nature of the heterosexuality one faces in the barracks.
Another rampling to prove my point:
| Quote: |
| And would it really be that hard for a gay person to go along on a few trips with his "coworkers"? |
This is how TheUrbanMyth summarizes the ordeal of Mr. Choi and other gays in the military.
Based on the arguments you've provided thus far, I pronounce you unworthy of being taken seriously. |
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mole
Joined: 06 Feb 2003
Location: Act III
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| Posted: Mon Jul 06, 2009 2:36 am Post subject: |
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d00dz.
I remember I was so shocked in '88; got to my unit 82D ABN.
It was like a witch hunt! No joke. One ole boy, married with children [coincidentally when that show was current] told stories of following suspected <insert politically correct term for queer> at night, just to try and catch him picking up and necking with another guy.
And presumably to report the incident.  To whom? I suppose I'll never know. And that's a good thing.
Not like we had fancy SAMSUNG video cameras like you can pick up nowadays. Night vision, touch screen, editing, etcetc..
Now I wonder if they [hunters] were using military equipment for this task?>
YES, kiddies, that was before Clinton's "Don't Ask Don't Tell" thingy.
"Clinton's NEW ARMY," they called it. And so many of us highly motivated dedicated airborne paratroopers from the mighty Eighty Deuce just didn't want any part of it.
Don't salute, just wink at each other. And if you make a mistake that needs some correctional personnel to make an appearance well, you have a "Stress Card" you can pull out and present to your instructor to indicate that you are uncomfortable with the training methods you believe may be employed.
Whiner.
Honestly though.
Any man qualified to jump out of an airplane at 0300 1000 ft agl with full combat load is ok in my book. |
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Xerapis
Joined: 19 Nov 2007
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| Posted: Mon Jul 06, 2009 2:37 am Post subject: |
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| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
As I have two brother-in-laws who are in the Canadian military, I am very aware that this is the case for many people...but not all.
See above. And would it really be that hard for a gay person to go along on a few trips with his "coworkers"?
Nice assumption about me, but wrong.
As for Mr. Choi, that policy of don't ask don't tell has been around for a long time and every now and then gets in the headlines. He'd have to been living under a rock not to be aware that the military discriminates against gays. |
Oh really? Because I experienced it DIRECTLY for 8 years. Please, share with me how you know the extent of the inescapability of heterosexuality in the AMERICAN military better because of your brothers-in-law in the CANADIAN military?
And seriously, once you start saying that gay people should just go along on a few trips (to strip clubs, for example), I realize that there is actually no point in discussing this with you further. How about you pretend to be gay for your job, huh? Let's see how much you enjoy it after a few years and you start a relationship with a woman. Let's make it basically a job requirement for you to go visit the Chippendales and gay bars. A job requirement that you were quite unaware of before joining the workforce.
I didn't say he was unaware of discrimination. Like you, he was unaware of how PERVASIVE that discrimination was UNTIL HE ACTUALLY EXPERIENCED IT. |
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RJjr
Joined: 17 Aug 2006
Location: Turning on a Lamp
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| Posted: Mon Jul 06, 2009 5:29 am Post subject: |
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Given the laws and rules in Germany at the time, what should the Germans have done to this soldier fighting for his country if he had stopped hiding what he was?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solomon_Perel |
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sharkey
Joined: 12 Oct 2008
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| Posted: Mon Jul 06, 2009 6:44 am Post subject: |
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| Daniel Choi's sister was in Korea working until earlier this year, FYI.. we're good friends =) |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Mon Jul 06, 2009 5:44 pm Post subject: |
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| ubermenzch wrote: |
Based on the arguments you've provided thus far, I pronounce you unworthy of being taken seriously. |
And just when were you appointed arbitrator of who gets to be taken seriously and who doesn't? 
You will doubtless be glad to know that the feeling is mutual and as such I will not be replying to anymore of your posts. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Mon Jul 06, 2009 5:49 pm Post subject: |
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| Xerapis wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
As I have two brother-in-laws who are in the Canadian military, I am very aware that this is the case for many people...but not all.
See above. And would it really be that hard for a gay person to go along on a few trips with his "coworkers"?
Nice assumption about me, but wrong.
As for Mr. Choi, that policy of don't ask don't tell has been around for a long time and every now and then gets in the headlines. He'd have to been living under a rock not to be aware that the military discriminates against gays. |
Oh really? Because I experienced it DIRECTLY for 8 years. Please, share with me how you know the extent of the inescapability of heterosexuality in the AMERICAN military better because of your brothers-in-law in the CANADIAN military?
I never said that.
And seriously, once you start saying that gay people should just go along on a few trips (to strip clubs, for example), I realize that there is actually no point in discussing this with you further.
If you are going to put words into my mouth, then yes, there is not much point in discussing this.
I didn't say he was unaware of discrimination. Like you, he was unaware of how PERVASIVE that discrimination was UNTIL HE ACTUALLY EXPERIENCED IT. |
[b] But why apply for the job in the first place if he KNEW he was going to be discriminated against?
And this is getting away from my original point which was if you violate an organization's rules (regardless of the morality of the rules) you should expect to face the consequences. That was all. I don't get why people are acting so outraged and surprised by this...this has been long-standing policy. |
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