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Goku
Joined: 10 Dec 2008
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 Posted: Thu Jul 09, 2009 9:50 pm Post subject: |
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| The Bobster wrote: |
Goku
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| Frankly, I know this may be offensive to some, but I don't want my children with a teacher who has AIDS, TBE, or any other disease. Even if it's 1/1000000 chance, I wouldn't risk putting my children in a situation where their life could potentially could be in danger. |
You should be embarrassed to display your ignorance so openly. Neither of the diseases you mentioned are ones which would pose even the slightest danger to your children in the normal course of teaching them, not even that one in a million chance you mentioned.
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It's not ignorance, it's an irrational fear. A parent is not going to put their children at risk with someone who has a life threatening disease. I think you can probably ask all the parents around the world and they'll give you the same answer.
Do you want your teacher to have aids?
Check Yes or No?
| |--->Yes | |-->No
You could argue, that so many more kids die by cars everyday. It's different because one is controllable but the other is not. The amount of effort it would take to control and shield children from cars all the time is unreasonable and impossible. However, in the case of a teacher iwth aids, moving hagwons or getting the teacher removed from the school is very doable and easy. A parent can easily "shield" and protect their child from harm in this case.
For drugs:
I also don't want a teacher who does drugs for my kids. Do drugs pose an immediate threat to my child? No, but if I found out the kindergarten teacher was smoking a doobie in the back of a hagwon I would definatley report him/her. Most parents are going to act the same way. Do I think weed is an ethical or moral travesty? Not really. But it's just not what I want my children to be influenced around. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Thu Jul 09, 2009 9:56 pm Post subject: |
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The Korean constitution grants all legal residents the same rights as citizens have. You probably didn't know that.
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Where's the right to vote in that? The right to engage in political action?
Or the obligation towards military service?
Or taxes?
As for quibbling over immi vs. SMOE vs. EPIK vs. GEPIK vs. Epic-Fail
It's all silliness. Same with F-2 Visas, E-2 Visas, R2-D2 Visas.
The only point is should a teacher have to go through drug and Aids testing and a health check. I think yes. Whether or not someone else has to is irrelevant. I, I should have to.
As an F-4 visa holder through EPIK I had to go through all those checks.
If you don't like it, you can choose not to go to Korea.
This HIV/Drug testing whining is so silly. No one forced you to work here, no one forced you to leave your country and choose to be subject ot he laws of another country. Do you want that free rent and decent pay and no taxes? Well then deal with it. Do you want equality? Then start paying taxes to the Korean govt and go do your military service.
For all the talk about immature and sissy Koreans, I sure don't see them putting up much of a fuss over having to spend two years of their lives in uniform for the safety and security of the nation. |
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The Bobster
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Thu Jul 09, 2009 10:25 pm Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
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The Korean constitution grants all legal residents the same rights as citizens have. You probably didn't know that.
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Where's the right to vote in that? The right to engage in political action?
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Sorry. We're talking about not being discriminated against. I thought that part had been made clear enough times ...
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The only point is should a teacher have to go through drug and Aids testing and a health check. I think yes. Whether or not someone else has to is irrelevant. I, I should have to.
No one forced you to work here, no one forced you to leave your country and choose to be subject ot he laws of another country. |
These are not laws, though. They are regulations targeted specifically at you. The courts are going to decide if that is merely unfair, or it it is also illegal and unconstitutional.
Goku
| Quote: |
| It's not ignorance, it's an irrational fear. A parent is not going to put their children at risk with someone who has a life threatening disease. I think you can probably ask all the parents around the world and they'll give you the same answer. |
Whether you want to call it ignorance or irrational fear (personally, I think they are close enough to be indistinguishable much of the time) the cure for each is the same - educate yourself about how HIV and tuberculosis are communicated, then base your actions on that knowledge rather than unreasoning terror. |
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Goku
Joined: 10 Dec 2008
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| Posted: Thu Jul 09, 2009 11:52 pm Post subject: |
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| The Bobster wrote: |
Goku
| Quote: |
| It's not ignorance, it's an irrational fear. A parent is not going to put their children at risk with someone who has a life threatening disease. I think you can probably ask all the parents around the world and they'll give you the same answer. |
Whether you want to call it ignorance or irrational fear (personally, I think they are close enough to be indistinguishable much of the time) the cure for each is the same - educate yourself about how HIV and tuberculosis are communicated, then base your actions on that knowledge rather than unreasoning terror. |
We all know how it's transferred and we all know the % is low. There is no ignorance about the disease or how it's spread. It's not like I think teachers are going around opening wounds in kids and rolling their cuts together. I know it requires liquid transfer, which is why I said low %.
It's the same kind of irrational thinking about being bitten by a shark. The % is ridiculously low of it ever happening. But people are still worried about being bitten by sharks.
Ask any parent here, even on these forums, nobody wants a teacher with aids for young children (specifically). For college or uni, I think it's irrelevant... But definately not thinking kindegarten and elementary school
But let's say something more likely with a teacher could occur, if he/she was a pedophile (which is a low probabilty but maybe likely) if let's say the teacher had aids too and decided to rape the child. The child would have aids. Now this is very unlikely in all circumstances, but that would make any parent freak out. Just the thought of that possibility. .
Well, not like he couldn't snap and just kill your children at any moment either with a box cutter knife. But parents are parents. We want to protect children by any means possible. |
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PatrickGHBusan
Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Location: Busan (1997-2008) Canada 2008 -
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| Posted: Fri Jul 10, 2009 4:54 am Post subject: |
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How many times do some people have to be told that there are teachers here not working in the public school system?
How many times do some people have to be told that the justification for the checks on the E-2 applicants is "to protect the children"?
How many times do some people have to be todl that E-2 applicants aren't the only ones teaching the children? |
How many times will it have to be repeated that an E-2 Teacher is a Temporary foreign worker on a sponsored visa?
How many times will it have to be explained that a Foreign worker, a Resident and a Citizen are not the same under the law?
How many times will it be explained that a country has every right to impose the checks it wishes on people who will work here as foreign labor?
It is astounding how people confuse citizen rights with immigration and visa issuance rules.
It is astounding how people see discrimination everywhere.
But continue to cry foul and racism on this issue all you want. Or do like the woman who refused the test. All up to you.
By the way, if you are a foreign teacher working with kids in a hakwon..the testing might apply (HIV and drug) because you still are not a citizen...your korean co-workers however are citizens. I know thats hard to grasp but maybe one day it will dawn on some people that they are in Korea as foreign labor, nothing more...unless they become RESIDENTS in the legal sense.
Honestly, Korea should save itself a huge headache and move all testing off shore. Make the drug and HIV test part of visa issuance in the home countries of the applicants. Have the testing done there. This would end this silly debate.
For the record, as a parent of two young kids and as a former public school teacher in Canada and Korea...I support medical and drug tests for teachers who will work with kids. If korea chooses to ask a few more tests from its foreign labor...thats understandable. My Korean wife just went through permanent residency application for Canada. She had to provide a detailed medical that covered all sorts of contagious diseases including HIV, Hep A and B....along with a detailed criminal records check. Mind you she is immigrating. The contagious disease check is a public health issue...it is a governments right to try and stem the proliferation of such diseases or at least to know if a person they are letting in has such diseases. Your personal little rights to be what you want to be end where the rights and health of others begin...a small rule to remember. |
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The Bobster
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Fri Jul 10, 2009 6:09 am Post subject: |
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| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| The Bobster wrote: |
| [Yes, I know you are going to try to shout me down and explain, equivocate some more, argue definitions, but you, TUM, have never seen racism in the world and called it that, not real racism. You and I have been together on these forums for a while, so if you can show me some discussion thread I've missed somewhere, I'll apologize for the slander, but until then, this is what I see from you. |
http://forums.eslcafe.com/korea/viewtopic.php?t=127280&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=199 |
I think TUM deserves a public apology, and I want to give him one.
Though I did not call him a racist here, it's possible I might have done so at some time in the distant past. I doubt it, offhand - my general tendency is to point out what seems to me to racist thought patterns rather than label a person in that way ... it's a distinction that seems important to me, but to others it might seem like mere quibbling.
I've said a few things on this thread that might lead people believe that I think TUM is a racist, and I'm sorry if anyone came away with that. I think every one on the planet harbors opinions that could be described in this way, and most of the time they are things we don't even realize are there - I also, and especially, include myself, The Bobster, in this indictment.
Definitions of racism often vary, sometimes wildly, from individual to individual. That's okay, and it's worth our time to talk about it. I might feel that someone who primarily sees racism as something that hurts white people when affirmative action is practiced is so far off-base as to unique category of self-serving willful blindness - but I could be wrong. I might also see xenophobia among Koreans as so similar to the fear-laden bigotry among white southerners in America that the distinctions re insignificant, especially when the result is the kind of visa regulations that have been put into effect over the last year and a half - but again, I could be wrong.
As for TUM, I've come to have much more respect for him over the years than when we first encountered each other in these forums. He's wrong sometimes, and he seldom does admit it, no matter how hard-pressed - well, so am I sometimes, and I hope I'll admit it when I need to. I will say this much about him: even when he's wrong and won't admit it, he is sincere and he means well. And I think he is honest. He's telling things as he really does see them. I can respect that, and I want him and everyone to know that I do.
One more thing he's got a leg up on me for: a lot of the things he says on these forums are good bits of advice to new people who could use a handle on things. I seldom bother doing that very much anymore, and I think he's pretty cool for giving a damn enough to make the effort. |
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CentralCali
Joined: 17 May 2007
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| Posted: Fri Jul 10, 2009 6:48 am Post subject: |
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| Medically, how much of a risk is it to a student that a teacher has HIV or AIDS? |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Fri Jul 10, 2009 6:54 am Post subject: |
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| Medically, how much of a risk is it to a student that a teacher has HIV or AIDS? |
If they contract it, huge. AIDS is an infectious, often fatal, communicable virus. The treaments are extremely costly, and not always succesful. Other viruses that fall into this category include ebola and African hemorragic fever. Would you quarantine someone for ebola? |
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CentralCali
Joined: 17 May 2007
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| Posted: Fri Jul 10, 2009 6:56 am Post subject: |
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| Well, I doubt many, if any actually, people who've had the misfortune to contract HIV intend to have sex with or share hypodermic needles with their students. |
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PatrickGHBusan
Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Location: Busan (1997-2008) Canada 2008 -
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| Posted: Fri Jul 10, 2009 7:02 am Post subject: |
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| Cali I do not think this debate is about the intent of people but rather about a government enacting measures to try and prevent or limit risks.... |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Fri Jul 10, 2009 7:20 am Post subject: |
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| Well, I doubt many, if any actually, people who've had the misfortune to contract HIV intend to have sex with or share hypodermic needles with their students. |
No to the second part, possibly to the first.
If you don't want to believe part #1, keep your head in the sand. |
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The Bobster
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Fri Jul 10, 2009 7:31 am Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
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| Medically, how much of a risk is it to a student that a teacher has HIV or AIDS? |
If they contract it, huge. AIDS is an infectious, often fatal, communicable virus. The treaments are extremely costly, and not always succesful. Other viruses that fall into this category include ebola and African hemorragic fever. Would you quarantine someone for ebola? |
Amazing that there is so much we still need to teach each other ...
WHO on eboloa
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Incubation period: two to 21 days.
Symptoms
Ebola is characterized by the sudden onset of fever, intense weakness, muscle pain, headache and sore throat. This is often followed by vomiting, diarrhoea, rash, impaired kidney and liver function, and in some cases, both internal and external bleeding. |
How about AIDS/HIV, then?
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| The incubation period is the time between infection and the onset of symptoms of disease. The incubation period between HIV infection and the onset of AIDS can vary anywhere from six months to an unknown period of time. Some people who are HIV antibody positive may never develop AIDS. CDC has stated that the average length of incubation at this time is seven years or more, however, this number continues to change due to various factors. |
In reality, there are probably not many diseases with less similarity to each other.
It's what I was talking about when I used the word ignorant ... but, you know, it took me about 7 minutes to google this. With the internet at your fingertips, there's really no excuse for saying stupid things in public. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Fri Jul 10, 2009 8:12 am Post subject: |
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And the part about fatal?
If AIDS isn't so bad, go and infect yourself with it then.
Can't be much worse then the flu. 3-7 days off your feet sweating, coughing, and eating chicken soup.
Have a blast with AIDS.
Seriously. If you are saying it's not a big deal, go and infect yourself with it.
Or how about this, if you found out tommorow you had AIDS, what would your reaction be? would it be like being told you have the flu?
That being said man, way to go and stick up for TUM.
So, don't take the above too personally, but come on man, saying AIDS isn't a big deal and shouldn't be watched for? Please. |
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The Bobster
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Fri Jul 10, 2009 8:52 am Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
| If AIDS isn't so bad, go and infect yourself with it then. |
Oh, it's a very big deal. But it's pretty difficult to get infected with it from just being around people. Someone called it infectious and communicable. Somebody seemed to be saying the same thing about TB.
Ignorance is also highly infectious when people go around saying stuff that isn't true, comparing HIV to ebola and talking about quarantines and crap like that. But it's pretty easy to cure - like I said, 7 minutes with a web browser, that's all it took me. |
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PatrickGHBusan
Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Location: Busan (1997-2008) Canada 2008 -
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| Posted: Fri Jul 10, 2009 9:19 am Post subject: |
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Bobster sorry but I think you are missing the point here. I agree about people reacting with ignorance of the facts sometimes but I will venture to say that no one is talking about the risk of passing on the disease through casual contact but rather about the huge consequences of passing this disease on accidentally.
Aids is deadly, it is as of now incurable and it remains contagious. As such it not just a matter of how it gets transmitted but also of what it does if transmitted.
I am sure you can see the issue there. It took you 7 minutes to google information on the disease but it is a life sentence to someone if they catch it....sorry but in a school setting and with the possible consequences Aids is a serious issue. Screening for it is in my view a reasonable precaution. A country trying to limit the exposure of its citizens to Aids is also reasonable. no matter what those 7 minutes told you about how hard it is to transmit aids. Also you read(accurately) that the disease is can lay dormant for months or longer before manifesting itself. This can lead an infected person to transmit it to others without even knowing he or she has it.
This is a public health issue not a teachers rights issue. |
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