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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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 Posted: Wed Jul 15, 2009 10:03 am Post subject: The more things change.. |
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�The budget should be balanced, the Treasury should be refilled, public debt should be reduced, the arrogance of officialdom should be tempered and controlled, and the assistance to foreign lands should be curtailed lest Rome become bankrupt. People must again learn to work, instead of living on public assistance.
- Cicero, 55 BC
Whatever happened to Rome, anyways? |
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Chambertin
Joined: 07 Jun 2009
Location: Gunsan
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| Posted: Wed Jul 15, 2009 12:11 pm Post subject: |
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Not sure, I tried asking the Dutch, the English, and the Chinese, to no avail.
The USA seems to be working really hard on finding out though.
Until they find a cure for stupid, or put an end to greed its just going to keep on spinning. |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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| Posted: Fri Jul 17, 2009 10:42 am Post subject: |
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| It would be nice to live for a thousand years and read the way future historians profile our age. Maybe then people will be putting quotes by Ron Paul on message boards (or the future equivalent) about spending, foreign aid and the arrogance empire. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Fri Jul 17, 2009 9:04 pm Post subject: |
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| The Roman Empire failed for a lot of reasons. Budget strains were a symptom of a greater problem: slavery to an Emperor. |
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Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994
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| Posted: Sat Jul 18, 2009 1:39 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| Whatever happened to Rome, anyways? |
The rich kept getting richer and the Christians withdrew loyalty to the state.  |
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ED209
Joined: 17 Oct 2006
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| Posted: Sat Jul 18, 2009 2:55 am Post subject: Re: The more things change.. |
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| mises wrote: |
Whatever happened to Rome, anyways? |
HBO cancelled it after two seasons. Watch The Tudors instead. |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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| Posted: Sat Jul 18, 2009 6:24 am Post subject: Re: The more things change.. |
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| ED209 wrote: |
| mises wrote: |
Whatever happened to Rome, anyways? |
HBO cancelled it after two seasons. Watch The Tudors instead. |
I only watched season 1. S2 is downloading now. The Tudors? |
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Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994
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| Posted: Sun Jul 19, 2009 5:48 am Post subject: |
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| Download 'I, Claudius' instead. A much better series. |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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| Posted: Sun Jul 19, 2009 7:10 am Post subject: |
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| Kuros wrote: |
| The Roman Empire failed for a lot of reasons. Budget strains were a symptom of a greater problem: slavery to an Emperor. |
Was he an investment banker? |
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weebil
Joined: 24 May 2009
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| Posted: Tue Jul 21, 2009 9:07 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
Whatever happened to Rome, anyways? |
history nerd here. i'll field this one.
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| The Roman Empire failed for a lot of reasons. Budget strains were a symptom of a greater problem: slavery to an Emperor. |
wut? are you saying that the fact that everyone had to pledge fealty to the emperor somehow caused rome's demise? the citizens of the empire were hardly slaves, otherwise why would the border land barbarians beg to be allowed the right to immigrate in all the time?
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| The rich kept getting richer and the Christians withdrew loyalty to the state. |
not quite. christianity became legalized under constantine, then given official status under theodosius, and byzantium stood for another thousand years. you've fallen for ed gibbon's false diagnosis.
it's certainly fair to say that rising tax burdens and economic weakness (lack of resources and taxable citizens) contributed to the fall of rome (the western half, which is obviously what we're talking about). as far as i know, the leading theory is that steady population decline caused by pandemics and, later, barbarian wars led the roman empire to enter a terminal state.
you could argue that in many ways the (western) roman domain lived on well past alaric's invasion in 410 or the removal of the last emperor in 476, especially when you consider the adoption of latin as the language of erudition, the title of holy roman emperor being passed down the carolingian / ottonian line, and rome's place as the seat of the papacy until 1300, with roman (the city's) control over the papacy until about the year 1000. the people of the middle ages in france, italy, and germany actually thought they had inherited the roman empire in an unbroken tradition. only now, looking back from the modern period, do we have a concept of a single, dramatic "fall of rome." |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Tue Jul 21, 2009 11:11 pm Post subject: |
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| weebil wrote: |
| Quote: |
| The Roman Empire failed for a lot of reasons. Budget strains were a symptom of a greater problem: slavery to an Emperor. |
wut? are you saying that the fact that everyone had to pledge fealty to the emperor somehow caused rome's demise? the citizens of the empire were hardly slaves, otherwise why would the border land barbarians beg to be allowed the right to immigrate in all the time?
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I didn't mean literal shackles-and-chains slavery. C'mon. 
I meant the Romans lost the virtues that won them their domain, and surrendered their fealty to an Emperor. Once that happened, the strength of the Empire resided entirely with the virtue of the individual Emperor. The Romans were lucky enough to have a string of capable Emperors at various points in their history, but this couldn't serve them as well as had the free Senate in the past.
This answer was also meant to relate back to Mises comparison of Rome to modern America. I'm trying to say that when the American people complacently accept dominion by the financial sector, that's when we can call the beginning of the decline. Its far too early to make that determination, however. |
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djsmnc
Joined: 20 Jan 2003
Location: Dave's ESL Cafe
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| Posted: Wed Jul 22, 2009 5:32 am Post subject: |
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I call it the de-ballification of society, with such ideas as feminism and "social justice" taking control. You need hard-ass raunchy men holding things together.
http://www.pbs.org/empires/romans/empire/family.html |
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