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Homer
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 Posted: Tue Feb 03, 2004 7:48 am Post subject: |
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Wow this has evolved into a royal rumble!
Itaewonguy...not to pry but you have brought most of this on yourself by making one-sided comments that leave you way open for criticism.
Gord has done what Gord does: hammer you with facts.
Matko has risen to the defence of his lady Japan  and quite a gallant effort he has made of it...nicely done my man!
In the end, you guys are comparing apples and oranges and tossing insults at one another because apples are not orange and oranges are not red.
Agree on some sort of standard and then compare. Actually Gordie has come up with one in one of his hammer blows of a post: standardized tests.
At the very least this is highly entertaining! |
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itaewonguy
Joined: 25 Mar 2003
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| Posted: Tue Feb 03, 2004 7:51 am Post subject: |
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| matko wrote: |
I'm not a Japan expert but Nobel Laureates has been won by Japan. Agreed?
What are the categories?
Economics? The Arts? Sports? Science and Technology? I don't know! This is your fight, not mine. |
ok..
1.ECONOMICS
2. Music
3. SPORTS
4. science
5. technology
6. literature.
7. exploration
8. academics
9. film
10.?????
this cool with you?
and no mat this is not a war.. but a game..
im not hating.. just playin.. |
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wylde
Joined: 14 Apr 2003
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| Posted: Tue Feb 03, 2004 7:58 am Post subject: |
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| This is the answer to all the questions. |
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matko
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: in a world of hurt!
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| Posted: Tue Feb 03, 2004 8:00 am Post subject: |
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First of all, Homer, my lady is not Japan. My lady is Croatia and the ever so beautiful Joe Sakic!!! .
Itawonguy, fire away.
Do you honestly think you'll win?
PS. it was never a war for me. Just seemed like one for you though. I think most people would agree that Japan has contributed more to the world and has influenced the world more than New Zealand ever has.
What's the point? |
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itaewonguy
Joined: 25 Mar 2003
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| Posted: Tue Feb 03, 2004 8:22 am Post subject: |
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| Gord wrote: |
| itaewonguy wrote: |
| perhaps you should write a book gord! |
What a great idea. I think I will do that. If I do that, I bed I'll sell thousands. In fact, I think I'll write a book about me and call it "The Book of Gord." The Book of Gord: Volume 1. I think I'll get started on it. Would you like to buy a copy?
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| maybe an Ex girl friend of yours was a kiwi and you hate kiwis for that! I dont know.. but you seem to write like you are certain.. just because you read it... |
Horrible lies. I rather like the place.
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| thats funny.. when considering I posted a stat ranking 3rd in the world for math! right behind japan, korea!! |
Your source did not explain how it reached it's results, unlike mine which broke it down by age, level, and explanations. Plus my link was endorsed by your goverment.
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| AN UNEDUCATED SOCIETY??? I see no no we are not NEw Zealand bashing are we!!!? |
We were talking about third world countries in Asia, which you seem to have forgotten.
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so korea is better than NEW ZEALAND GORD????
well well well.. can you explain to why NEW ZEALAND is considered to be one the highest countries in the world for standard of living and KOREA!!!
RANKS DOWN THERE WITH MEXICO!!!
for a country so well educated how can this be ???
shouldnt it be the other way around??? HELLO??? |
We were talking about education, not standard of living.
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HOW SO??
in what way are they smarter?
what in math?
in science?
in history?
geography?
economics?
arts?
I would really love to know... thank you.. |
Start reading, it's all there.
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GORD. get to your real point!! what is it? are you saying that JAPAN and KOREA are the greatest nations on the earth at the moment???
ohh no you would never say that directly.. you would respond with something like.. no, what I am saying is,, that those nations have contributed far more to this world than other nations at this present time..
or something like that.. |
You were insulting your students in Korea for not knowing people in influence with western names, so I simply noted how your knowledge of Asians of great influence is just as limited.
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seems to me.. you are looking for an arguement from patriotic kiwis!!
if thats your motivation then you really have issues gord!! |
How many times would you like me to say I'm not trying to insult your country and have only posted facts directly relating to your claims?
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maybe you should not even mention NEw Zealand unless you acually have been there or do know first hand about it !
OR YOU CAN BACK UP YOUR WORDS WITH REAL QUOTES!!
you still havent listed the government offical who said it!!
when, why, etc... if you can do this,..this I will forgive you for talking badly about NEw Zealand.. if you cant.. then so be it!
I will consider you a bigot!!!! |
The report was commissioned by Education Minister Nick Smith and was chaired by former Labour MP Margaret Austin. The words I quoted in my first posting were directly from Margaret.
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| you and your stat sheet can go blow in the wind for all I care.. |
Curse me and my proof.
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all I know Is.. we do 17 years of school!! koreans dont!!!
I dont care how you want to break it down. or how you want to add it up
what ever~ we do more than koreans.. and we learn more topics than they do!!! I have a stronger opinion on this than you because...
I went to school in New Zealand for 7 years, lived there over 12 years.
schooled in australia for 6 years. and Italy. where I am originally from!
I have lived here and worked for 7 years in education!
you list theories... I list practical facts!! |
I fail to see the value in clinging something that you have misrepresented.
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I dont get involved in canadian topics, or american topics.. because its none of my business.. and I dont know anything about it..
regarding korea or japan or other nations.. we all can express what we like. because we are foreigners!!! |
I was simply noting that people who know far more about education than you do and who were paid to evaluate the NZ education system disagree with your assestment of the value of that system as an overall.
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I stated a fact that new zealand kids do more hours in a classroom than koreans then you came on board and started this whole parade! then you later agree with me, but through in some jargon to make it sound better for you.. like guitar lessons, repeated years blar blar.. doesnt matter either way I was right.. but you couldnt let go...
entertaining though.. |
Actually, I was referring to years, not hours. Korean students at the end of their educational lives will have spent more than twice as many hours in an educational setting that a NZ student.
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| but this arguement is over!! |
It was only meant to highlight a mistake .
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| do you think korea and japan are the greatest nations alive today??? |
I don't believe so, but I do respect the final products of the education system. |
I no longer wish to debate this topic. thank you gord it has been fun.
but lets meet in other topic.. this one has been beaten to death!
The entire report is based on the dishonest and selective use of international research. While noting that instructional time for OECD countries is "very difficult to assess accurately owing to the dubious nature of the data on which it is based", it proceeds to use OECD figures to "prove" that New Zealand has one of the shortest school years in the OECD. In some subjects such as mathematics and science, the figures are broken down to purportedly measure the number of minutes students are under instruction per year.
The document quotes extensively from reports by the Education Review Office, which has a history of attacking teachers. It gives the impression that schools willfully organise themselves to deprive students of time spent in class. Its underlying outlook is based on a narrow view of education that teachers' time not spent in activities directly related to delivering the curriculum is wasted time. As a result, a whole range of administrative and pastoral activities is likely to suffer, as will important activities for the social development of young people, such as sport and cultural pursuits.
The entire discussion is designed to direct criticism away from the effects of government policies on the educational development of the country's youth and to blame schools and teachers. The most recent research shows that there has certainly been a deterioration in educational results, but that this is impacting most particularly on working class students.
The Third International Mathematics and Science Study (TIMSS, 1995) showed that New Zealand now has the greatest gap between high and low achievers in these two subjects among OECD countries. The research is supported by recent studies into the country's levels of literacy which demonstrate that at the top end of the range New Zealand is still among the highest levels of literacy in the OECD, but at the bottom end, particularly among impoverished Maori and Pacific Island students, it has the lowest literacy levels internationally.
The TIMMS reports are unequivocal that the social and economic situation of students is the most significant factor which influences levels of educational achievement. This conclusion is readily apparent in the "League tables," published in the media, which set out the public examination results of the country's secondary schools.
Recently released data shows that the country's "top" school, Marsden College, a private fee-paying all-girls' college in the capital city of Wellington, last year gained 37 percent 'A' passes and 34 per cent 'B' passes in School Certificate, the national examination in year 11. At year 13, the last year of secondary school, Marsden students gained 58 per cent 'A' passes and 33 per cent 'B' passes in the Bursary exam, which is used for entry to university. In contrast, Porirua College, which serves a poor working class area of the same city, with a roll composed mainly of Pacific Island students, gained only 2 per cent 'A' passes and 1 per cent 'B' passes in School Certificate with no 'A' or 'B' passes at all in Bursary
NOW GORD. because your whole arguement is based on maori and islanders and the poor citizens of new zealand. which I didnt know when you first posted im sorry.. I will retire this debate..
you are right gord.. the lower class of new Zealand are slipping below standard. no doubt about that!!!
I thought you were talking about all new zealand. I'm sorry I was wrong!
I agree with you.. the lower class is pretty bad..
but then again arent all nations like that? the poor seem to be the ones we all most criticize and look down on?
korea and japan im sure have many poor children too. and they are not so bright, and they dont get to go to hakwons..
anyway gord.. I agree with you..
until next time we cross paths,.
cheers.. |
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itaewonguy
Joined: 25 Mar 2003
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| Posted: Tue Feb 03, 2004 8:34 am Post subject: |
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| matko wrote: |
First of all, Homer, my lady is not Japan. My lady is Croatia and the ever so beautiful Joe Sakic!!! .
Itawonguy, fire away.
Do you honestly think you'll win?
PS. it was never a war for me. Just seemed like one for you though. I think most people would agree that Japan has contributed more to the world and has influenced the world more than New Zealand ever has.
What's the point? |
do I think I will win? no probably not!
but I can list a person/team in any catagory and stand proud of it..
I just cant be f u c k e d right now.. hahahahaha
if you want to start go ahead.. hey maybe we can start somekind game in open forum.. like this..
list some catagories.. and everyone can list a team/person from that country to out beat the other persons post..
what you reckon?
anyway just downloaded Cold mountain.. so gonna watch that,.,.
catch ya later.. |
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gmat
Joined: 29 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Tue Feb 03, 2004 8:40 am Post subject: |
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Getting back to the original question:
Here are stats from selected countries:
http://money.cnn.com/2003/10/06/pf/work_less/
Average Annual Working Hours:
South Korea 2,447
Japan 1,848
Australia 1,824
United States 1,815
Canada 1,778
However in the working smartest category, look at productivity as Haggard has correctly already done.
U.S. Workers Are World's Most Productive
Study Covers Jobs in Agriculture for First Time
U.S. productivity grew in 2002, surpassing both Europe and Japan in annual output per worker for the first sustained period since World War II and further widening the productivity gap with the rest of the world...
Americans are producing more with fewer workers in the labor market." At the same time, he explained, "labor market flexibility in the United States may be one of the factors allowing employers to adjust more quickly to changing economic conditions by shedding or adding jobs."
The study attributes much of the growth in output per person employed in the U.S. to two other factors: the production and use of information technology and the growth of service industries dependent on information technology. With the exception of Finland, most EU countries were unable to match the U.S. in such developments during the 1990s.
(Souce UN International Labour Organization)
http://www.us.ilo.org/regions/uscanada/kilm_03.cfm |
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indiercj
Joined: 30 Jan 2003
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Tue Feb 03, 2004 11:34 am Post subject: |
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Itaewonguy I really love reading your posts. You sound so much like a...
Korean Ajoshi!
Good job anyway folks.  |
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Deconstructor
Joined: 30 Dec 2003
Location: Canada
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| Posted: Tue Feb 03, 2004 12:32 pm Post subject: |
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Having worked with Koreans for many years, in and out of Korea, I can tell you that they have no concept of working effectively, at least as far as learning a language goes. They memorize vocabulary and grammatical patterns like gangbusters but when it comes down to actually using the language, they fundamentally fail. No one studies the English language more than the Koreans and no one wricks havoc with the English language more than the Koreans.
Even when one introduces a new method of learning, they become extremely suspicious: "Huh, there is no grammar? no memorization, just reading, listening and talking???!!! |
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Gwangjuboy
Joined: 08 Jul 2003
Location: England
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| Posted: Tue Feb 03, 2004 6:00 pm Post subject: |
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| Gord wrote: |
| matko wrote: |
| First of all, I didn't make a statement that was innacurate, the website did. |
http://web.hhs.se/personal/suzuki/o-English/ed06.html
This has a breakdown by country on the numbers. Basically most websites credit NZ with zero because of the three people who have won awards, their only real involvement with NZ was that they were born there and that their research/contribution that lead to the prize was almost exclusively down in another country |
You are wrong. According to my sources Mcdiarmid got his first degree in New Zealand. He graduated from the University of Victoria in 1947. Rutherford gained a BSc degree (Canterbury College NZ), and a Master of Arts mathemetics and physics(same university) in New Zealand. Both later went on to work abroad, but only did thanks to their acheivements in New Zealand.
http://www.nzedge.com/heroes/rutherford.html |
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ryleeys
Joined: 22 Dec 2003
Location: Columbia, MD
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| Posted: Tue Feb 03, 2004 6:09 pm Post subject: |
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Define working hard for me please...
Are we going by monetary output?
I think the construction worker making $7.50 an hour works just as hard as the doctor making $300,000 a year...
Are we going by hours worked?
I think the waitress pulling double shifts all week works just as hard as the semi-conductor engineer putting in 40 and going home...
Are we going by physical exertion?
I think the taxi driver sitting on his rear works just as hard as the police man chasing down criminals...
Are we going by what type of job?
I think the guy that's unemployed but sending out 300 resumes a week is working just as hard as the hagwan teacher...
Are we going by stress level?
I think the librarian filing books works just as hard as the airport traffic controller...
Finally, I think that Americans, Koreans, Mexicans, Chinese, Dutch, you name... they all work hard unless they're sitting on a couch drinking beer 7 days a week. What's the point in trying to argue who works harder when everyone is just trying to provide for their family in one way or another? |
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kiwiboy_nz_99
Joined: 05 Jul 2003
Location: ...Enlightenment...
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| Posted: Tue Feb 03, 2004 7:41 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| This has a breakdown by country on the numbers. Basically most websites credit NZ with zero because of the three people who have won awards, their only real involvement with NZ was that they were born there and that their research/contribution that lead to the prize was almost exclusively down in another country |
Well if we're discussing education I don't think it's relevant that New Zealand prize winners were not counted as New Zealanders on some website because of where their research was done. If they were educated in New Zealand then for the purposes of the debate thier achievement reflects the New Zealand education system and so they should be counted as New Zealanders. |
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Gord
Joined: 25 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Tue Feb 03, 2004 7:50 pm Post subject: |
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| Gwangjuboy wrote: |
| You are wrong. According to my sources Mcdiarmid got his first degree in New Zealand. He graduated from the University of Victoria in 1947. Rutherford gained a BSc degree (Canterbury College NZ), and a Master of Arts mathemetics and physics(same university) in New Zealand. Both later went on to work abroad, but only did thanks to their acheivements in New Zealand. |
He received his early education in New Zealand, but it wasn't until he was shipped off to Canada where he was in the company of other physicists and given greater opportunities to explore his theories and expand on the ideas of others that he started to come up with the work that lead to his greatest contributions to science.
Technically, he was a guy from New Zealand and was being held back by New Zealand as NZ did not have the supporting material and supporting staff necessary, and had he not left to Canada it is unlikely he would have ever had the financial backing to pursue the theories he would later arrive at.
Ergo my statement of "that their research/contribution that lead to the prize was almost exclusively done in another country", because this is what happened.
Same deal with MacDiarmid. The heavy lifting of this studies, experiments, and theories were all done overseas and in the company of other overseas researchers.
Let's say I wrote a book and it went on to sell eleventy bazillion copies. Should my kindergarten where I learned to read at be cited in the credits? I ask because, ironically, I've stumbled across many a forum where people have cited they are a friend of mine and I can't remember them, but apparantly we used to spent much of our free time after school together. Everyone wants to be a player on the winning team. |
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Gwangjuboy
Joined: 08 Jul 2003
Location: England
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| Posted: Tue Feb 03, 2004 9:18 pm Post subject: |
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| Gord wrote: |
| He received his early education in New Zealand, but it wasn't until he was shipped off to Canada where he was in the company of other physicists and given greater opportunities to explore his theories and expand on the ideas of others that he started to come up with the work that lead to his greatest contributions to science. |
How do you define early? I wouldn't refer to one's university years as early, certainly not at Masters level. I didn't argue about their later work in other countries, your references to that are correct. But, they were awarded those scholarships as New Zealanders. They were proud of their New Zealand roots. I think we should leave it to them to decide where they are from.
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| Technically, he was a guy from New Zealand and was being held back by New Zealand as NZ did not have the supporting material and supporting staff necessary |
I never once argued about the standards of the education system in New Zealand, so I hope those jibes weren't for my benefit. I disputed Matko's evidence, and I think any reasonable man would concede they are from New Zealand. Especially the two that finished their higher education in New Zealand.
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| Let's say I wrote a book and it went on to sell eleventy bazillion copies. Should my kindergarten where I learned to read at be cited in the credits? |
We are talking about degrees obtained from institutes of higher learning. The dichotomy between your analogy, and the facts, are stark. Remember, those degrees obtained in New Zealand were good enough to secure the scholorships abroad.
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| Ergo my statement of "that their research/contribution that lead to the prize was almost exclusively done in another country", because this is what happened. |
Should we strip Japan of their award because the inventor of the blue LED did a lot of his research at the Uiversity of Florida? |
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Gord
Joined: 25 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Tue Feb 03, 2004 9:38 pm Post subject: |
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| Gwangjuboy wrote: |
| How do you define early? I wouldn't refer to one's university years as early, certainly not at Masters level. I didn't argue about their later work in other countries, your references to that are correct. But, they were awarded those scholarships as New Zealanders. They were proud of their New Zealand roots. I think we should leave it to them to decide where they are from. |
The awards were awarded to the person and the country the work was done in. If you hit the awards page, http://www.nobel.se/chemistry/laureates/1908/ for example, you'll see that it cites Rutherford as doing the actual work in the UK they tacted on New Zealand at the end because he was born there.
Same time people in this thread are saying "NZ won a nobel prize", they are disregarding that the award went to other countries, with the other country earning the greater credit.
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| I never once argued about the standards of the education system in New Zealand, so I hope those jibes weren't for my benefit. I disputed Matko's evidence, and I think any reasonable man would concede they are from New Zealand. Especially the two that finished their higher education in New Zealand. |
It wasn't an insult. It was simply a note that at the time, NZ post-secondary institutions simply lacked the R&D buget and supporting staff that allowed the people from NewZealand to make their discoveries, so they had to travel abroad.
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| We are talking about degrees obtained from institutes of higher learning. The dichotomy between your analogy, and the facts, are stark. Remember, those degrees obtained in New Zealand were good enough to secure the scholorships abroad. |
Happens all the time. My girlfriend got a fully paid scholarship to attend university in New York, yet some people on this forum trash talk Korean universities as accomplishing nothing and worthless. Not an attack.
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| Should we strip Japan of their award because the inventor of the blue LED did a lot of his research at the Uiversity of Florida? |
Unlike the NZ award winners, the Japanese guy returned to Japan and did all his research and theories in Japan, coupled with using Japanese resources in building it. |
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