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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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 Posted: Fri Jul 17, 2009 8:57 pm Post subject: |
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| mithridates wrote: |
| Maybe there's a problem with the word perfect itself. Perfect could imply that nobody ever suffers harm, or it could just mean that there is a kind of perfect order in the way the universe works. I wonder if you two aren't talking about two different things here when you use the word. |
If Julius cares to define the word perfect, or the term "best possible," I'd happily discuss the meaning with him.
| mithridates wrote: |
| Castlevania: Symphony of the Night is considered to be just about a perfect game, but it has one flaw: it's a bit too easy. Especially when you get that sword called the crissaegrim. If you get that then you just walk around and watch as everything disintegrates before you, and the game can get a bit boring when that happens. Removing that sword probably would have made the game a bit more satisfying. Ignoring the subject of God for a moment, I've always thought the universe has just about the right amount of difficulty for humans as a whole, and I find it immensely satisfying that we as humans are capable of taking formerly life-threatening situations and illnesses and turning them into something close to a paradise. |
Well -- without passing judgement on whether or not that's true -- I think in addition to judging the world's "difficulty level" regarding the human race collectively, it needs to be judged regarding individual humans as well, and I think we can agree there is a vast disparity in that regard. My own life has been incredibly easy, while the lives of many humans have been brutally difficult. If the world is a video game we're playing, our difficulty level is randomly chosen for us based on where we're born and who we're born to, and I'm not sure how many people would want to play a game like that.  |
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ED209
Joined: 17 Oct 2006
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| Posted: Fri Jul 17, 2009 11:07 pm Post subject: |
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| If a perfect indestructible world without suffering can't exist, what is Heaven? |
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Julius
Joined: 27 Jul 2006
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| Posted: Sat Jul 18, 2009 9:07 am Post subject: |
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| Fox wrote: |
| If the world is a video game we're playing, our difficulty level is randomly chosen for us based on where we're born and who we're born to, and I'm not sure how many people would want to play a game like that. |
Of course there are inequalities, suffering and all kinds of evil in this fallen world. This is of mankinds doing, who has given in to the temptation of the evil one. None of this is of Gods will. This is what mankind has done with his free will and choices, the results of disobedience to God's plan. The world is condemned, living under condemnation, until it wakes up and repents. But that is not what the world wants to do: people do not want to obey God. They want to live their own way.And so it continues.
I don't pretend to know the deepest wisdom or plans of God. there are gaps in my understanding, and the perceptions of all christians. But we do know that God is not a sadist nor is he unjust. And in faith, we trust in his wisdom and authority. If everything on every level was crystal clear, and God appeared in the sky on a daily basis to prove to everyone he existed, then there would be no prizes for believing in him. It would take no faith to believe. Do you reward someone for notifying you that the sky is blue or that water is wet? No. Would you commend lets say a girlfriend who has stuck by you through good times and bad, when there was at times no reason to believe in you? yes.
Naturally, people who demand proof before they believe do not please God. To those who demand "a sign", as the bible says, no sign shall be given, except for Jesus himself who was sent to the earth to deliver the message personally. Its 2000 years later and the message has been told to virtually the whole earth in every language, the bible is intact and we have 10X more evidence to prove that it is intact than for any other historical document. The world has had fair warning, has been alerted to its perilous situation and what it should be doing to turn back. God has allowed abundant time for the earth to repent.
If you want more evidence of a creator, its all around. In creation, in e.g. any random flower you could find- is greater complexity, design, awesomeness and beauty than any scientist can fathom or replicate. yet we take it for granted, we fail to appreciate it. Its staring you in the face. The fact that even with this people still dmand more proof tells me that to such people, no amount of proof would satisfy them. Because its their will that needs to change. |
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RufusW
Joined: 14 Jun 2008
Location: Busan
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| Posted: Sat Jul 18, 2009 1:21 pm Post subject: |
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| Julius wrote: |
| If everything on every level was crystal clear, and God appeared in the sky on a daily basis to prove to everyone he existed, then there would be no prizes for believing in him. |
Oooo....prizes!!! |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Sat Jul 18, 2009 3:38 pm Post subject: |
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| Julius wrote: |
| Of course there are inequalities, suffering and all kinds of evil in this fallen world. This is of mankinds doing, who has given in to the temptation of the evil one. None of this is of Gods will. |
God intentionally created both Humanity and your "evil one" knowing exactly what would happen. If God exists, and God is omniscient and omnipotent, everything is God's will.
| Julius wrote: |
| This is what mankind has done with his free will and choices, the results of disobedience to God's plan. |
God knew they would be disobedient. If I make a poison cup cake, and put it in the middle of a Kindergarten class, and say "Don't eat this, it's poison," but I'm perfectly aware the children will eat it anyway, would you seriously say, "Hey, Fox, it wasn't your will that those children died by means of poison cup cake."? Of course not, you'd blame me, everyone would blame me, and I'd go to jail. Yet you let God off the hook for the exact same thing.
| Julius wrote: |
| I don't pretend to know the deepest wisdom or plans of God. |
Yet you ceaselessly defend those plans.
| Julius wrote: |
But we do know that God is not a sadist nor is he unjust.
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Not by any reasonable definition of knowledge you don't.
| Julius wrote: |
| If everything on every level was crystal clear, and God appeared in the sky on a daily basis to prove to everyone he existed, then there would be no prizes for believing in him. |
Why on Earth should there be prizes for believing in something you've never seen, have no proof exists, and even to a certain extent defies logic? At this point you're virtually arguing God is running a cosmic gameshow.
| Julius wrote: |
| Do you reward someone for notifying you that the sky is blue or that water is wet? No. |
No. I also wouldn't reward someone for insisting that there is a magical, invisible unicorn living under my bed.
| Julius wrote: |
| Would you commend lets say a girlfriend who has stuck by you through good times and bad, when there was at times no reason to believe in you? |
Not if she had no reason to believe I even existed, no. I would think she was totally crazy. None of these analogies you keep making are at all analogous, because they keep leaving out one basic, key factor: you have no rational reason whatsoever to believe God exists. The people in your analogies all have reason to believe the other people in the analogy exist, that puts them in a totally different class of action.
| Julius wrote: |
| Naturally, people who demand proof before they believe do not please God. |
Then God is an unjust sadist who hates rational thought.
| Julius wrote: |
| If you want more evidence of a creator, its all around. |
No, it isn't.
| Julius wrote: |
| In creation, in e.g. any random flower you could find- is greater complexity, design, awesomeness and beauty than any scientist can fathom or replicate. |
Come on, man. You're willing to assert that an infinitely complex, immortal, all powerful, omniscient being can exist without being created, but you're not willing to concede flowerscan exist without being created?
| Julius wrote: |
| The fact that even with this people still dmand more proof tells me that to such people, no amount of proof would satisfy them. Because its their will that needs to change. |
That's ridiculous. I accept that you exist with the amount of evidence I have right now. I accept Rufus exists. I accept my desk exists. I accept my parents exist. If God provided a similar amount of evidence for his own existence, I would also accept he existed. No one requires an unlimited amount of evidence to believe something exists. If God came down, did some God stuff, and made an announcement to the world, everyone except bacaspar would believe he existed. Bacaspar would say it was a government trick. |
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Rteacher
Joined: 23 May 2005
Location: Western MA, USA
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| Posted: Sat Jul 18, 2009 4:59 pm Post subject: |
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While there is essential agreement among monotheistic religions that God is the original Father of all living beings and ultimate Creator of both material and spiritual worlds, it's clear to me that the Vedic view expounded by Krishna in Bhagavad-gita bridges at least some philosophical gaps that are left unanswered in the Bible and popular forms of modern Christianity.
In the Vedic view, the material universes function as a type of prison for the spiritual universes. There may be various classes of prisoners - some enjoying more privileges than others - but everyone is suffering due to disobeying/neglecting basic rules or orders of the Supreme Father.
No parent wants to see their children suffer in prison, but if a grown child breaks the law, a good father understands that such an institutionalized state of imposed suffering may be necessary to gradually reform criminal mentality and conduct.
Even in the case of so-called "innocent children", the laws of nature don't discriminate - if a child puts his hand in fire, it will get burned.
And since an individual spirit-soul never ceases to exist, death is philosophically understood to be a change of body, and the intricate laws of karma are not limited to just the present lifetime.
So, one who apparently gets away with murder in one life may later get the karmic reaction by being killed himself in his next life (perhaps by the same person he killed previously.)
Accordingly, in Vedic culture capital punishment is recommended for those actually guilty of murder - so that they won't have to suffer for it in their future life.
Moreover, the basic moral principle of not unnecessarily killing applies (with various degrees of karmic reaction) also to lower forms of life.
The karmic reaction can also be collective, and the unnecessary slaughtering of billions of animals may result in horrendous wars that no one really wants.
It doesn't pay to defy the Supreme Will, and Nature is an agent of God. Our position is always subordinate, so the more that we try to conquer nature (and kill other living beings) the more we become entangled in its complex chain of reactions.
To think ourselves (individually or collectively) to be the master of nature is an illusion - we are always controlled.
The scope of our free will is to choose whether to be controlled by the material nature or by the spiritual nature.
Basically, the material nature means repeated birth, death, disease and suffering, while the spiritual nature means enjoying everlasting transcendental bliss in the association of God and his liberated devotees.
In this cosmic age, everyone has the tendency to be both a demon and a devotee. A demonic activity is one which takes you further away from God, and a devotional activity is one that brings you closer to God.
So, one may be acting like a demon one moment and like a devotee the next.
Sometimes devotional service to God is considered to be like a fire that can burn up all sinful reactions. However, if we again engage in demonic activities it's like putting out the fire with water and getting karmicly implicated again.
Because of the perplexities of life, intelligent people are strongly advised to take guidance from a realized spiritual master who can deliver them from this material world of suffering to the transcendental world of happiness.
http://www.prabhupadaconnect.com/Asitis1.html |
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Julius
Joined: 27 Jul 2006
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| Posted: Sat Jul 18, 2009 5:36 pm Post subject: |
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| Fox wrote: |
| If God came down, did some God stuff, and made an announcement to the world, everyone except bacaspar would believe he existed.. |
But he already has done precisely that.Jesus performed numerous miracles, and also taught the message of the way to salvation. people believed.
Jesus mission was to rescue people, to provide a way back to God for humans by becoming a sacrifice. Thus by his crucifixion, death and ressurection, the atonement for human sin is complete. We no longer have to suffer the consequences of sin, if we accept him as our saviour.He has provided a way out.
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| God knew they would be disobedient. |
Yes. But it was still their decision. They knew not to sin, and they knew the consequences. But they went ahead.
If you raise your child with the instructions e.g not to take something that doesn't belong to him, and explain why this is wrong and why it would anger you. Then maybe at some point in your boys life he will disobey your instructions. Maybe he will steal a bottle of vodka from the shop at age 14. maybe he will joyride your car at age 16 to impress his mates.
Either way, he will probably make his own mistakes and decisions regardless of your instructions. Will that be your fault? Would it be your will? No, because he has free will to make his own decisions.
You're saying that all your sons mistakes will be your fault because you were the one who decided to have a child in the first place? |
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Rteacher
Joined: 23 May 2005
Location: Western MA, USA
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| Posted: Sat Jul 18, 2009 6:21 pm Post subject: |
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There's a difference between being a pure representative of God and being God.
A pure representative may be empowered to accept sinful reactions of fallen souls and accept worship on behalf of God, but he is still a servant of God - perhaps a very big servant - but still a servant.
As it's the duty of the son to serve the father, Jesus - as the perfect son of God - serves as a Spiritual Master, empowered by God to uplift many fallen souls (at least to the platform of goodness where they can make further spiritual progress).
There is no harm in worshiping and considering such a great soul and perfected being "as good as God" or even "more merciful" than God if he is one's personal savior, but my understanding is that Jesus is an individual jiva soul who has perfectly realized his relationship to God and is canvassing on His behalf.
I don't think that Jesus - the "son of God" - would accept (or tolerate) being called "God", and when I was a kid most Christians seemed to understand that "son of God" means partial manifestation of God - as the father is said to "live" in his sons.
All of us are part of (and children of) God.
The difference is that an exalted personality like Jesus is so pure - being one in desire with God - that God can act and speak through him (like a marionette or puppet pulled by strings from above ...) |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Sat Jul 18, 2009 10:33 pm Post subject: |
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| Julius wrote: |
| Fox wrote: |
| If God came down, did some God stuff, and made an announcement to the world, everyone except bacaspar would believe he existed.. |
But he already has done precisely that. |
Prove it. Less pointless words, more hard evidence. An ancient book isn't proof anything; we have ancient writings speaking of many religions, most of them totally incompatible with yours.
| Julius wrote: |
| Quote: |
| God knew they would be disobedient. |
Yes. But it was still their decision. They knew not to sin, and they knew the consequences. But they went ahead. |
And God went ahead as well. You'd blame me for the poison cup cake. You'd blame me for unleashing the killer robot who technically has free will. Yet you're reticent to blame God for functionally identical actions. I understand the cult you've been indoctrinated into demands this of you, but it doesn't make it more rational. |
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Stones1962
Joined: 26 Nov 2008
Location: Europe/Asia
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| Posted: Sun Jul 19, 2009 1:11 am Post subject: |
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| Sadly FOX, your arguments are all wrong....hopefully someday you will find the truth |
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SeoulFinn
Joined: 27 Feb 2006
Location: 1h from Seoul
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| Posted: Sun Jul 19, 2009 1:40 am Post subject: |
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A bit OT, but what the heck:
Someone mentioned that unbelievers and sinners will be sent to Hell to be tortured forever by Satan and his minions. As we know, the Bible supports this interpretation. There's just one thing I don't get.
Why would the ruler of Hell torture and punish those who end up in his domain? Satan (aka. Lucifer, used to be an angel) rose against God and got kicked out from Heaven. Why would he "work" for his enemy and punish those who end up in his realm? These people obviously sinned against God, did not follow His rules, did not paid homage to Him, preyed on their own people in very unchristian way etc. You'd think that Satan would do the opposite and reward them for disobeying God! Just like he did so many years ago.
Anyway, Hell's going to be one helluva crowded place. All those Hindus, Muslims, Buddhists, idol worshipers etc. will be there. As will all those who died before "The one true God" really came along. These people are going to be tortured for eternity just because they believe(d) in the wrong God (competition), didn't believe in any god, or were/are born in a place and time where the good people of the Church had not (and haven't) spread the Gospel yet. Brilliant! |
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ED209
Joined: 17 Oct 2006
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| Posted: Sun Jul 19, 2009 2:30 am Post subject: |
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| Fox wrote: |
| Julius wrote: |
| In creation, in e.g. any random flower you could find- is greater complexity, design, awesomeness and beauty than any scientist can fathom or replicate. |
Come on, man. You're willing to assert that an infinitely complex, immortal, all powerful, omniscient being can exist without being created, but you're not willing to concede flowerscan exist without being created? |
Nettles are the Devil's work! |
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Rteacher
Joined: 23 May 2005
Location: Western MA, USA
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| Posted: Sun Jul 19, 2009 3:15 am Post subject: |
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| SeoulFinn wrote: |
A bit OT, but what the heck:
Someone mentioned that unbelievers and sinners will be sent to Hell to be tortured forever by Satan and his minions. As we know, the Bible supports this interpretation. There's just one thing I don't get.
Why would the ruler of Hell torture and punish those who end up in his domain? Satan (aka. Lucifer, used to be an angel) rose against God and got kicked out from Heaven. Why would he "work" for his enemy and punish those who end up in his realm? These people obviously sinned against God, did not follow His rules, did not paid homage to Him, preyed on their own people in very unchristian way etc. You'd think that Satan would do the opposite and reward them for disobeying God! Just like he did so many years ago.
Anyway, Hell's going to be one helluva crowded place. All those Hindus, Muslims, Buddhists, idol worshipers etc. will be there. As will all those who died before "The one true God" really came along. These people are going to be tortured for eternity just because they believe(d) in the wrong God (competition), didn't believe in any god, or were/are born in a place and time where the good people of the Church had not (and haven't) spread the Gospel yet. Brilliant! |
The Vedic scriptures also describe various types of hell, and the powerful demigod (Lord Shiva) in charge of universal destruction and the mode of ignorance may correspond to the idea of Satan. (He also carries a trident and smears his body in ashes...)
It's understood, however, that punishment in a particular hell only lasts for one lifetime - though it may seem like forever.
And Lord Shiva is considered one of the greatest devotees of God. |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Sun Jul 19, 2009 3:31 am Post subject: |
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| Because you simply can't have an omnipotent deity without said omnipotent deity ordering people to be mercilessly tortured. I hope Rteacher is at least reasonable enough to avoid Julius' "It isn't God's fault, people decide to be tortured!" assertion and just admit that his God knowingly and willingly chooses to have people tortured. |
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Rteacher
Joined: 23 May 2005
Location: Western MA, USA
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| Posted: Sun Jul 19, 2009 3:57 am Post subject: |
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My understanding of the Vedic model is that the majority of living entities never fall from the spiritual world and enjoy uninterrupted peace and harmony.
Only a small fraction causelessly desire to imitate God in trying to enjoy and lord it over material nature.
God reluctantly lets them try to enjoy separately from Him, but the catch is that the material world is basically set up to be a place of suffering - so they'll come crawling back after trying to sow their oats and becoming miserable.
From the spiritual perspective, horrific suffering and death - while certainly not pleasant - don't have any finality attached to them since the spirit-soul is indestructible.
The misery is caused by falsely identifying the physical body as being the real self when it's really just a temporary vehicle on a never-ending journey of eternal life.
In the material world, we're just like fish out of water - no amount of wealth, beauty, or education can solve our basic problem of not being in our natural habitat. |
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