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catman
Joined: 18 Jul 2004
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 Posted: Thu Jul 23, 2009 6:28 pm Post subject: |
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| ubermenzch wrote: |
| ManintheMiddle wrote: |
ubermensch mentioned:
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| So he showed a little attitude |
That's an understatement; he swore, yelled, screamed, insulted the man's mother and called him a racist--all before being asked to step outside.
Obama called the police--not only this cop--stupid but said absolutely nothing critical of his running buddy, Skip. Which shows you where his sympathies lie. Everyone is so quick to give Gates the benefit of the doubt but not the cop. Real nice.
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Yeah, the president should have kept out of it. It's one guys word against another. Gates' driver was there with him, no? I wonder what his version of the events is?
I guess my point is that the policeman, once he found out that it was actually Gates' house, might have chosen to just leave, and ignore the personal attacks and histrionics coming from the professor. I agree they were over-the-top, but given the circumstances, it seems to me his behaviour warranted leniency.
Does this episode say something about the larger black population? There does seem to be a portion of the black population in America which is overly hasty is crying "racism!" at the slightest provocation, but we shouldn't generalize, especially with this sensitive subject. And it seems presumptuous to assume this case to be an example of such black over-sensitivity. |
There is also a significant portion of the white population who believe the police can do no wrong. |
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catman
Joined: 18 Jul 2004
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| Posted: Thu Jul 23, 2009 6:29 pm Post subject: |
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To the apologists, did you notice that the charges were quickly dropped? Why would that be?  |
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pkang0202
Joined: 09 Mar 2007
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| Posted: Thu Jul 23, 2009 6:34 pm Post subject: |
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| Hater Depot wrote: |
| pkang0202 wrote: |
| kabrams wrote: |
For the record, it is not against the law to speak your mind to a police officer, nor is it against the law to yell at at police officer. Once Gates handed over his identification, the investigation was over. |
Really? I'll tell you what, I want you to go to the first cop you see in America and jsut start yelling at him. Call him a pig and just yell at him. Lets see what happens. You say its not against the law. Put your money where your mouth is. |
kabrams is right, and the scenario you paint is obviously too different from the Gates case to be relevant. Gates had proved he was not a burglar, and said a few intemperate words. The professional thing for the cop to do would have been to leave, but instead he abused his power by making a legally unsupportable arrest. |
No, the professional thing would've been for a Harvard Professor to say, "Alright Officer, I've proven that I live here. Unless there is any other business, I would like to get inside the house and take a rest. I just had a LONG trip."
IF Gates had said THAT, I extremely doubt that the cops would've stuck around.
How hard is it to say that? You simply tell the officer politely that he has no more business there.
Maybe for some of YOU, it is really difficult to be polite and respectful. Turning to a cop and berating him would not be something Dr. Martin Luther King would condone. |
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proustme
Joined: 13 Jun 2009
Location: Nowon-gu
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Hater Depot
Joined: 29 Mar 2005
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| Posted: Thu Jul 23, 2009 7:08 pm Post subject: |
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| yawarakaijin wrote: |
| We are living in one fucked up world where those who put their life on the line daily (especially american police officers) are expected to have to sit there and take crap from anybody, Cambridge professor or run of the mill crackhead. |
Better take it up with the Supreme Court. Constitutionally, police officers are held to a higher standard than ordinary citizens when it comes to withstanding rude speech. |
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Hater Depot
Joined: 29 Mar 2005
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| Posted: Thu Jul 23, 2009 7:11 pm Post subject: Re: Maninthemiddle, monomania about black people |
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| proustme wrote: |
| ManintheMiddle, what's with your monomania about black people? You're quite keen on posting about them. |
Notice that for all his professed concern for them, he has never started a thread about where he decried a black man being the victim of racial injustice, rather than a white man. Selective outrage rings hollow. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Thu Jul 23, 2009 7:47 pm Post subject: |
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| Only among Blacks are there Blacks like you who would make such a claim. |
First off I ain't black.
Second off the reason there were quotations around black America was because I don't believe in the concept of black America.
Note in the police report, which yes I failed to read, although it revealed nothing explosive towards Mr. Gates, that the officer asked an ALREADY disorderly (according to the officer) Prof. Gates to go outside. Once outside the officer then tried to decalre him A disorderly nusiance.
If the officer was concerned about noise and the public, why did he ask Mr. Gates to go outside?
The officer claims he was leaving the residence at the time the noise escalated.
He then contradicts himself- He claims that the noise was interfering with his communications and that's why he left.
Which was it officer? Were you finished with the investigation and leaving the residence or did you need to continue it and question Mr. Gates further outside?
Sounds to me that the officer tried to lead Gates outside so that he would have cause to arrest him for disorderly conduct.
Note also the use of the cordless phone showing that Gates was familiar with its location, implying that it was his residence.
Of course the officer portrays himself as innocently as Mr. Gates does himself.
The truth is somewhere in the middle or on the outside, but it is not the officer's version of events.
BTW you have no cluse about my political leanings, you would be quite surprised at what I have voted for.
Someone can lean to the right and still side with Mr. Gates. |
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ubermenzch
Joined: 09 Jun 2008
Location: bundang, south korea
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| Posted: Thu Jul 23, 2009 7:55 pm Post subject: |
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[quote="Steelrails"]
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Of course the officer portrays himself as innocently as Mr. Gates does himself.
The truth is somewhere in the middle or on the outside, but it is not the officer's version of events.
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This seems exactly right to me. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Thu Jul 23, 2009 8:30 pm Post subject: |
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I should also clarify that I use "Gates' side" in the sense of a private citizen being able to enjoy his own property in peace, and cops leaving ASAP.
I fundamentallydisagree with Gates' carrying on and on after the arrest.
Buck up man.
maninthemiddle should just be honest and admit he dosen't like black people/culture.
Honesty is where it all starts. |
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MollyBloom
Joined: 21 Jul 2006
Location: James Joyce's pants
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| Posted: Thu Jul 23, 2009 8:42 pm Post subject: |
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I personally know Professor Gates. I think he is in general a nice guy, but I am not in any way surprised that he reacted the way he did. While I admire his passion for academics, I cannot support him in this matter.
From what I have heard from staff/faculty I know, and from reading the police report, Gates had an attitude from the start about the incident. Dropping that he was a "Harvard professor" I think is pretty lame, as were the "don't you know who I am" comments. Also, when Gates said "ya, I'll speak to your mama outside" to the officer, there was no mention of arrest at that point, just warnings that he was becoming disorderly. He kept on taunting and saying s**t, and that's what got him arrested.
While he has the support of many, many people, a lot of people in the HU community are really embarrassed of Gates, including black faculty/staff members. I'll also add that the latter members are making the point to state their disappoinment of hearing Gates's words and actions; it's those exact representations of black people that they are trying to change. They see it as one step back when Gates himself pulled the "race card."
Here's an article in the Harvard Crimson. The comments section is intersting.
http://www.thecrimson.com/article.aspx?ref=528587
I don't know if anyone posted the arrest record, but here it is again:
http://www.amnation.com/vfr/Police%20report%20on%20Gates%20arrest.PDF |
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bacasper
Joined: 26 Mar 2007
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| Posted: Thu Jul 23, 2009 8:52 pm Post subject: Re: Maninthemiddle, monomania about black people |
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| proustme wrote: |
| ManintheMiddle, what's with your monomania about black people? You're quite keen on posting about them. |
Your post is not only ad hominem and thus a violation of the TOS, it is also WRONG.
A similar search using "liberal/liberals" reveals 241 hits, over 100 more than that for "blacks."
He is at least duomaniacal. |
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MollyBloom
Joined: 21 Jul 2006
Location: James Joyce's pants
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| Posted: Thu Jul 23, 2009 9:00 pm Post subject: |
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BACasper asked about the ID card:
It has a picture and name. No address or DOB. There is an ID #, but it's used mostly for library purposes. The ID card is used to gain access to buildings (by swiping the card), to load your "Crimson Cash" to pay for stuff, and to take out library materials. |
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ManintheMiddle
Joined: 20 Oct 2008
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| Posted: Thu Jul 23, 2009 10:05 pm Post subject: |
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richardlang responded:
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| Curiously, the officer in the report does not capitalize the race of the professor as you do. What's your reasoning behind this. |
There has been a shift in usage over the past two decades. I notice now that many publications do not capitalize racial descriptors. Just as African American is used with increasing frequency nowadays too. Both are indicative of political correctness, however, which is not consistently applied (i.e. one seldom hears "European American" used in the same conversation; instead it's usually "White"). In my time, racial descriptors were treated as proper nouns and adjectives--no more, no less. [This concludes this segment of Semantics 101].
ubermenzch discerned from SteelRails:
| Quote: |
| This seems exactly right to me. |
I concur. Usually in these situations neither party is guiltless. But I'll wager that it was Gates who got belligerent first and, unlike Gates, Crowley hasn't tried to belabor the issue, preferring to let it rest. And that is what I find so galling, not his trying to cover his own ass.
Steelrails surmised:
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| maninthemiddle should just be honest and admit he dosen't like black people/culture. |
Finally, you reveal your real feelings. You've no clue what you're talking about and I doubt from your comment that you're familiar with my recent posting history on this forum [which search]. It's more a matter of wishful thinking on your part so that you can dismiss me rather than deal with my bones of contention, eh? It's a typical liberal knee-jerk reaction to reasoned criticism from moderates and conservatives alike. Well done.
| Quote: |
| I fundamentally disagree with Gates' carrying on and on after the arrest. |
Uh, most of it occurred before his arrest.
Molly aptly discerned:
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| I personally know Professor Gates. I think he is in general a nice guy, but I am not in any way surprised that he reacted the way he did. While I admire his passion for academics, I cannot support him in this matter. |
I've heard him lecture. You've expressed my sentiments with this exception: It has reached the point in American society where any minority who is famous is almost immune from criticism for not taking personal responsibilty for their actions. That's why Jesse Jackson survived his anti-semitic remarks, why Sharpton survived his defamation suit against White cops (which a grand jury found not guilty), and why even now our President can call law enforcement officers "stupid" and get away with it. It is tolerated and leads to a sense of entitlement, which those like Gates, despite their intellectual stature, just don't get. One more thing: some of Gates' writing smacks of the victimhood mindset. But then no one would dare call into question his line of reasoning even through academic journals for fear of the wrath of the Left who dominate the campuses coming down on them.
The race card is the first resort of a coward who knows he's in the wrong. It's really bold of Gates to paint himself as a complete victim without fault in this matter. It doesn't speak well of his character at all, which is the real "teaching moment." Intellectuals who can't be reflective (especially days after an altercation) aren't really intellectuals, in my view.
And you're right: the Harvard ID card does NOT indicate addresses. I don't know of any campus ID that does; it's considered a matter of privacy under the 1974 Family Protection Act, which also governs student records. |
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MollyBloom
Joined: 21 Jul 2006
Location: James Joyce's pants
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| Posted: Thu Jul 23, 2009 10:14 pm Post subject: |
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^^ I agree with a lot of what you are saying concerning Jackson, Sharpton, etc.
I really want to make a specific comment, however, in discourse like this it would be technically "hearsay," so I don't know if I should mention it. I'll just say that a friend of mine was an Afro-American undergrad major at Harvard with Gates as her thesis adviser, and she told me some interesting things about him.
I was reading this: http://buckmire.blogspot.com/2009/07/skip-gates-appears-on-cnn-to-discuss.html
Gates's CNN interview. At one point he says:
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O'BRIEN: Originally they put the handcuffs behind your back.
GATES: They put the handcuffs behind my back. And I told them that I was handicapped, I used a cane. They had a debate. There was a black officer there who was very sensitive. He persuaded them to move the handcuffs from around the back to the front. They took me to the Cambridge Police station and booked me, fingerprints, mug shot, which has now been all over the universe.
.........................
Notice Gates is the only one who uses the words "black officer...white man...black man...." Even with Gates's own words, it is never mentioned that the officer calls himself "white" or Gates "black." Same in the police report. It seems Gates is the only one obsessed with assigning people colors! |
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ubermenzch
Joined: 09 Jun 2008
Location: bundang, south korea
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| Posted: Thu Jul 23, 2009 10:29 pm Post subject: |
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This article in Slate paints a clearer picture for us:
http://www.slate.com/id/2223379/
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Do Police Officers Have To Identify Themselves?
And other Henry Louis Gates Jr. arrest questions, answered by the Explainer.
By Brian Palmer
Posted Wednesday, July 22, 2009, at 5:07 PM ET
Prosecutors dropped all charges against Henry Louis Gates Jr. on Tuesday. The prominent Harvard professor had been charged with disorderly conduct after breaking into his own home in Cambridge, Mass. This bizarre episode, which some say is an example of racial profiling�Gates is African-American�raises all sorts of questions for the Explainer.
Gates repeatedly requested the arresting officer's name and badge number. Gates says the officer provided neither, although the officer claims that he did, in fact, state his name. Was the officer required to provide this information?
Yes. Massachusetts law requires police officers to carry identification cards and present them upon request. Officers are also required to wear a "badge, tag, or label" with their name and/or identifying number. The law is aimed at precisely the situation in question�suspects who feel their rights are being violated. Few other states impose this requirement on their officers as a matter of law, but many individual police departments, such as the New York Police Department, have adopted it (PDF) as a matter of policy.
Gates initially refused to emerge from his home and provide identification. Was he required to?
No. There's nothing to stop an officer from requesting your presence on the front porch or asking you questions, but he cannot force you to identify yourself or come out of your house without probable cause. (The rules are different for drivers and immigrants, who are required to provide identification upon request.) If you don't feel like chatting, ask the officer whether you are free to go about your business. If he answers no, you are being detained, which means the officer must acknowledge and abide by your full menu of civil rights, including the famous Miranda warnings.
The arresting officer alleges that Gates shouted at him and threatened to speak to his "mama." He then arrested Gates for disorderly conduct. What, exactly, is disorderly conduct?
Behavior that might cause a riot. Massachusetts courts have limited the definition of disorderly conduct to: fighting or threatening, violent or tumultuous behavior, or creating a hazardous or physically offensive condition for no legitimate purpose other than to cause public annoyance or alarm. (The statute, however, just says "idle and disorderly persons," a formulation that is, on its own, patently unconstitutional.) Violators may be imprisoned for up to six months, fined a maximum of $200, or both.
The stilted language in the Gates police report is intended to mirror the courts' awkward phrasing, but the state could never make the charge stick. The law is aimed not at mere irascibility but rather at unruly behavior likely to set off wider unrest. Accordingly, the behavior must take place in public or on private property where people tend to gather. While the police allege that a crowd had formed outside Gates' property, it is rare to see a disorderly conduct conviction for behavior on the suspect's own front porch. In addition, political speech is excluded from the statute because of the First Amendment. Alleging racial bias, as Gates was doing, and protesting arrest both represent core political speech. |
If we are to believe this article (and why wouldn't we?), the police officer did not perform his duties correctly. |
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