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E_athlete
Joined: 09 Jun 2009
Location: Korea sparkling
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 Posted: Fri Jul 24, 2009 12:41 am Post subject: |
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| Julius wrote: |
| E_athlete wrote: |
| A person of the 1st century writing about something like raising the dead can be explained by science, |
Walking on water can be explained by science? How was this elaborate trick achieved pray tell. In a way that even his closest disciples were fooled into devoting their lives forever after, undergoing imprisonment, persecution and death for their beliefs.
As I said..Jesus did not profit financially nor in any way from his miracles and sought no political advantage from them. he did not sign for his own TV show or conduct interviews, accept money or any other "reward". What possible motive are you insinuating exactly?
| Julius wrote: |
The point is that 100 or so all agreeing that these miracles were real doesn't stand up in the court of rational discourse. |
Your rational discourse deliberately excludes the possibility of the supernatural. Actually no evidence would be enough to you. Even if 1000 people today- rational people- doctors, professors etc all claimed seeing something supernatural at the same place and time...and their accounts matched....it would still be dismissed as "inexplicable'and discarded from record by society today.
You are denying the existence of something purely because you haven't personally experienced it. that is not a legal basis.
There is plenty, plenty out there that science and doctors cannot explain...with plenty of evidence to back it. Does then your scientific community recognize it? No. They only recognise what can be reliably performed and demonstrated in a controlled experiment.
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| people that don't know much compared to people in the 21st century. |
you're making them out to be complete imbeciles. I think people could tell that walking on water was not a natural phenomenon.
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| You admit that there were other miracle workers in Jesus' time. |
yes, his disciples who performed miracles on Jesus' authority.
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| If a miracle or God was real scientists and science would have no choice but to accept it. |
Doctors witness miracles fairly often. Things that should not happen by the laws of science.
Just because a team of scientists cannot reproduce them in a lab does not mean they did not happen. Of course they can't reproduce miracles. they are not God.
"He was clinically dead for 38 minutes"
http://www.thedaily.com.au/news/2009/jun/14/knocking-heavens-door-38-mins/
many Americans have experienced miracles...
http://www.aarpmagazine.org/people/mystery_of_miracles.html |
Isn`t it entirely possible that the people that wrote the bible may have exaggerated a bit about these miracles of Jesus. Is it possible? Think about it. You are jumping to conclusions about something based on the claims of people of the 1st century who were profoundly ignorant when compared to educated scientists of the 21st century.
You keep bringing up the fact that Jesus did not perform for any benefits. This is not even an argument if you want to convince someone that he really was God. But I wont even let you get away with saying that Jesus didn't benefit because by convincing other gullible people of the first century he was the real deal he obviously secured himself a following and a social support network. This translates into increased survival value for a magician living in the middle east. But again, even if he did not benefit at all for the sake of argument you convince nobody but others in your church camp.
Please do not assume that no miracle is enough for me. You do not know me, please stop cold-reading. I don't discount the possibility that the supernatural exists. However once the supernatural is tested and found to be real it just becomes part of our natural world and thus science. If tomorrow Jesus came back and flew around in the sky everyday like superman and we concluded he was the real deal, scientists and laymen would have no choice but to accept him as part of the natural world and science. Christianity would then become a science, not a religion as Sam Harris said.
Yes there is plenty of things science cannot explain but you and many other religious people jumped to the conclusion that `it has to be God`. This is not to insult you and other religious people because human beings have done this since they were cavemen. When something cannot be rationally explained we would ascribe the unknown to a fictional character, God. This God served as a placeholder for things humanity could not understand until science showed us the way. When cavemen saw fire, lightning or rain they could not explain it. Therefore they falsely claimed understanding of these phenomena by saying God was the cause. You are essentially doing the same thing by ascribing to God whenever a new unexplainable mystery pops up. You just don`t realize that you are repeating the same things cavemen have done before you. It`s like the possibility that there might be a rational explanation for the unknown does not enter your mind at all. A physician cannot explain why a clinically dead person came back to life and suddenly you say `aha!! see that!! You can`t explain it, the reason has to be something supernatural!!! suck on that atheists`. Obviously the cause of the mystery to you must be something related to the supernatural. You discount the possibility that it could be anything else, especially when all the evidence and research is not even in... Rather than looking for things that conform to your world-view like religions do, Id strongly suggest you look for things that disprove it, that`s what science does.
I never said science can explain everything. There are things we do not understand and even when they are explained there will always be new mysteries that will need explaining. Saying God is the explanation of anything is not a clever insight nor is it an explanation of anything.
Seriously this is like ground hogs day. Many religious people repeat the same arguments over and over even when they are continually demolished. The worst part is that they have very selective memory when it comes to this. I myself have repeated these counter arguments several times and that`s what this seems like to me. The religious spout a fallacious argument that is countered but even when this happens the religious cannot accept that their arguments have been pulverized and their logic is flawed. |
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Julius
Joined: 27 Jul 2006
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| Posted: Sat Jul 25, 2009 5:47 am Post subject: |
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I'd assumed this thread had finished...but still going I see..
| Manner of Speaking wrote: |
| Yeah right. Humans were made in God's image but we can't fly, ... and we DIE.. |
Humans have been degenerating in ability since the fall. Imperfections have entered in, disease, genetic flaws, cancer, all kinds of stuff that has left us less than what the original human must have been like. Add in the migration and diversification into localised populations, inbreeding etc and we've lost or stopped expressing a lot of our original perfect genetic range.We die because of sin. If a robot malfunctions one day it will stop working, it is less than perfect. In former times men lived centuries, they were closer to God. Now we've come pretty far from that time, to us is given "threescore years and ten" on average.
| Khenan wrote: |
| Oh sure, Christianity proved to be a truly valuable moral compass, what with the sacrifice of old women, the murder of Popes, the Papal-sanctioned inbred royal marriages, the multiple-attempted genocide of the Jews, and the encouragement of illiteracy. Thank God for Christianity! |
Theres a lot here to tackle but briefly, much of what you mention there ocurred in catholicism which I've already pointed out is to me and many others a deviant branch of christianity that has stopped following the essence of the faith centuries ago. A lot of their practises and beliefe systems are actually forbidden in the bible and its not really surprising when you consider the pope not only banned the bible for centuries but when they couldn't stop its literal translation, produced their own mistranslated versions to detract from its power.
Catholicism matches biblical descriptions of the antichrist in fact, historically persecuting genuine christians and masquerading as the true faith. So i will say again, do not blame the bible for human misrepresentations of its message. Catholicism is a business bent on political power.
| Fox wrote: |
| An omnipotent God could have provided more than 2 options. The fact that there are only 2 options is God's will. The facts regarding who gets sent where is God's will. Everything about this scenario is God's will. |
i see you've gotten very stuck on this concept of "God's will". By your rationale then if you decide to stab someone then it is God's will, he somehow pre-ordained it. You're denying that you have any free will whatsoever to make a choice. "Should I buy the blue shirt or the red one?". Oh i bought the red, God made me do it.
No. What is quite easy for me to accept is the concept of sacred free will. People were given the ability to make choices independent of God's will.
I don't really see the problem with this. Sure god knew what choices we will make but that doesn't mean he is accountable for our choice. To have made a failsafe creation where nobody could commit sin brings us back to the old robots theory again.
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| Further, he could choose not to send people to Hell, but does it anyway. |
A perfect God can't accept imperfection. it makes sense to me. A fundamental law. Start breaking all the laws and pretty soon everything is meaningless. If you've ever been on the door of a pub for example you will know not to let unrepentant axe murderers into the party.
| Ed209 wrote: |
| How can you be happy in heaven when all your friends are burning? |
This is why christians are trying to warn the world of the danger its in. Neither God nor any christian wants people to end up in eternal punishment. However in heaven the memory of our earthly lives fades i think.
| E-athlete wrote: |
| by convincing other gullible people of the first century he was the real deal he obviously secured himself a following and a social support network. This translates into increased survival value for a magician living in the middle east. |
I'm afraid Jesus doesn't fall into your projections of profiteering charlattan. A simple read up of the 4 separate accounts would make this much obvious.If you actually read them you will see that he willingly gives himself up to death, not tried to survive at all costs.That was his purpose- to be sacrificed for our sin, not to build a business empire.
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| When cavemen saw fire, lightning or rain they could not explain it. Therefore they falsely claimed understanding of these phenomena by saying God was the cause. |
Satan also has supernatural abilities -just his are designed to lure people into worshipping him or misleading people into any number of belief systems that lead away from the true God. All ancient cultures believed in ghosts, demons and all manner of harmful supernatural phenomena. There is plenty of evidence of demonic activity in the world today UFo's and possessions, curses and occultic practises. These are all a perversion of God's divine supernatural attriburtes and methods.
Ultimately science cannot replicate supernatural acts in the lab. That doesn't mean there is not a vast amount of evidence for them outside of the lab. Crop circles and UFO's are well documented btw..unless you think the videos are all doctored. Numerous perfectly sane and rational people attest to God's miracles in the name of Jesus, and even medical doctors agree although few can publicly state this for fear of being branded unprofessional and losing their licenses.
Ultimately you return me to the point of faith: if God became a scientific fact then there would be no reason to have faith, which is expressly stated as being indispensable to God's purpose. And..faith should never depend on proving miracles exist. The incomprehensible design and complexity of the universe is miraculous enough if you think about it. |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Sat Jul 25, 2009 9:22 am Post subject: |
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| Julius wrote: |
| Fox wrote: |
| An omnipotent God could have provided more than 2 options. The fact that there are only 2 options is God's will. The facts regarding who gets sent where is God's will. Everything about this scenario is God's will. |
i see you've gotten very stuck on this concept of "God's will". By your rationale then if you decide to stab someone then it is God's will, he somehow pre-ordained it. |
He certainly created everything that exists knowing it would happen, and acted anyway. By any rational standard, he bears at least some culpability. In any other comparable situation, you would likely agree.
| Julius wrote: |
| You're denying that you have any free will whatsoever to make a choice. |
No I'm not. I'm just also not oversimplifying the situation in order to try to prove my irrational, invalid point. One person bearing guilt with regards to a particular unethical event does not prevent other people from also bearing guilt if they too played a role in it occuring. An omnipotent, omniscient God that created everything is the ultimate reason anything happens, and was fully aware of every consequence of his action, and thus holds at least some responsibility for everything that happens.
| Julius wrote: |
| "Should I buy the blue shirt or the red one?". Oh i bought the red, God made me do it. |
God certainly created the world knowing I would buy the red one. If not for God's actions, a red shirt would not have been purchased by me at that time (or ever). Between the fact that God's own actions are part of the reason the shirt was purchased, and the fact that he knew that would be the result, yeah, God is at least partially responsible. When the outcome is me buying a shirt, that's not a particularly big deal. When the outcome is babies being killed, it's a bigger deal.
| Julius wrote: |
| What is quite easy for me to accept is the concept of sacred free will. |
Yes, it's very easy to accept. It's also easy to see that God, having created everything with 100% certainty of what would follow from his creation, and due to his omnipotence having the ability to have created a world in which such things wouldn't have happened, is partially responsible despite free will. God easily could have created humanity having free will but lacking the desire to do harm to others, for instance. He didn't. I don't care why you argue he didn't, if he exists at all, he didn't. That's sadistic.
| Julius wrote: |
| I don't really see the problem with this. |
I know you don't. You don't see anything which contradicts your Bible. You are totally unable to move beyond it, so much so that even simple, obvious facts of life like evolution must be denied. I genuinely wish abusive cultists hadn't turned you into what you are, but they did, and I'm sorry for that. I really am.
| Julius wrote: |
| To have made a failsafe creation where nobody could commit sin brings us back to the old robots theory again. |
No, it doesn't. You can have free will which could allow you to commit sin while still lacking the inbuilt desire to sin. I lack the desire to constantly bite my tongue until it bleeds. I could do it if I wanted, because I have free will and the physical capacity to do it, but I don't want to. I don't think that makes me a robot.
There's no reason an omnipotent, omniscient God couldn't have created humans with the ability to sin, but no desire to sin. In fact, giving humans the desire to sin is outright sadistic given the consequences God has put forth for sinning.
| Julius wrote: |
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| Further, he could choose not to send people to Hell, but does it anyway. |
A perfect God can't accept imperfection. |
1) All humans are imperfect. None the less, not all humans go to Hell according to you. Clearly, it is not logically necessary for God to send imperfect people to Hell. Alternatively, you're claiming Christians are perfect, which is so stupid that I don't believe you are claiming that.
2) If God doesn't accept sinners, that's fine. That doesn't mean he has to consign them to eternal torture. I don't accept your unproven beliefs or poor argumentation; I'm totally unable to, something in me recoils at it. None the less, I don't want you to come to harm. Yet for some reason, you insist that it's totally unreasonable for God to consign people he doesn't accept to eternal torture. Monsterous.
| Julius wrote: |
| it makes sense to me. A fundamental law. |
A fundamental, sadistic, monsterous law that only a totally evil being would d
| Julius wrote: |
| Start breaking all the laws and pretty soon everything is meaningless. |
Yeah, seriously. I mean without laws, the world is meaningless. Happiness, fun, love, learning, challenging yourself, improving yourself, all meaningless. Law is what make life meaningful.
| Julius wrote: |
| If you've ever been on the door of a pub for example you will know not to let unrepentant axe murderers into the party. |
Agreed. However, no one who is both ethical and in their right mind wants that axe murderer eternally tortured.
You're really, really bad at arguing by analogy, I don't know why you keep trying it. I know hard logic doesn't favor the Christian cause, but unfortunately analogies don't either, so perhaps you should look for another recourse.
| Julius wrote: |
| Ed209 wrote: |
| How can you be happy in heaven when all your friends are burning? |
This is why christians are trying to warn the world of the danger its in. Neither God nor any christian wants people to end up in eternal punishment. |
Your alleged God wants people to suffer in Hell. God created the entire system of punishment via Hell. It exists entirely at God's discretion. Nothing can force God to act against his own desires. It is logically obvious that yes, God wants people to end up in eternal punishment.
| Julius wrote: |
| However in heaven the memory of our earthly lives fades i think. |
You think. |
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SeoulFinn
Joined: 27 Feb 2006
Location: 1h from Seoul
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| Posted: Sat Jul 25, 2009 1:34 pm Post subject: |
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| Julius wrote: |
| Manner of Speaking wrote: |
| Yeah right. Humans were made in God's image but we can't fly, ... and we DIE.. |
Humans have been degenerating in ability since the fall. Imperfections have entered in, disease, genetic flaws, cancer, all kinds of stuff that has left us less than what the original human must have been like. Add in the migration and diversification into localised populations, inbreeding etc and we've lost or stopped expressing a lot of our original perfect genetic range.We die because of sin. If a robot malfunctions one day it will stop working, it is less than perfect. In former times men lived centuries, they were closer to God. Now we've come pretty far from that time, to us is given "threescore years and ten" on average. |
Just your 1st paragraph has so many things I'd like to comment about, but I'm afraid I'd be wasting my time by doing so. Your original humans, I give you that much, were a lot stronger, faster and of sturdier stock than we are today... but I'm sure you are referring to Adam and Eve, while I'm referring to the rise of homo sapiens.
Julius, you obviously believe strongly in what the Bible has to say about life expectancy in the past and the age of the Earth (5769 years) etc. Well, good for you! There's nothing I can say to make you change your mind, and why should you? No reason to do so as far as I'm concerned. May I ask one thing, though? Since you mentioned cancer, diseases and genetic flaws, could you humor me and tell be what causes them? All I hope to hear is that you don't contribute them to distance from God, sin and the devil.
Since you mentioned cancer, I'd like to post a short clip I found quite interesting although it is 100% OT material.
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"The First Documented Case of Cancer
The world's oldest documented case of cancer hails from ancient Egypt, in 1500 b.c. The details were recorded on a papyrus, documenting 8 cases of tumors occurring on the breast. It was treated by cauterization, a method to destroy tissue with a hot instrument called "the fire drill." It was also recorded that there was no treatment for the disease, only palliative treatment.
There is evidence that the ancient Egyptians were able to tell the difference between malignant and benign tumors. According to inscriptions, surface tumors were surgically removed in a similar manner as they are removed today."
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We know that cancer has been ailing and killing people for at least the last 3500 years. And remember that this is the first historical record of the disease that we know of: likely the people who were ancient even to the Egyptians were familiar with such a wasting disease. Interesting stuff, eh? |
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furtakk
Joined: 02 Jun 2009
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| Posted: Sat Jul 25, 2009 2:43 pm Post subject: |
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| Julius wrote: |
Humans are made in God's image. He made us to resemble him and entrusted us with the earth to look after. He gave us eternal souls, unlike the animals. And unlike any animals, he created us in order to have a relationship with him. Probably for the same reason you would have kids.He also gave us dominion over the earth and all its creatures.
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According to whom? Ignoring the absurdity of such certainty and indulging in the idea that the human species was created in God's image I think a number of problems arise.
How do you account for evolutionary progress? The human species in its present form is not identical to its predecessor and we have no way of knowing how evolutionary processes will change the human species over the course of the next X amount of years. If it is the case that human beings were created in God's image, then how do you account for the constant change? At which point in the history of our species can we be considered to be an 'image of God?'
The whole idea seems silly. If we were created in God's image, why not create us with the stroke of a finger in our final form?
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| Actually by the standards of human psychology you are required to demonstrate faith in numerous situations when applying for acceptance by an employer, borrowing money, getting married, and virtually everyother human relationship. What do you say at an interview? "I'm sorry but i do't believe in this company, your abilities or my abilities?"?? |
This is a horrible analogy for a variety of reasons, but the most important being that in each of these scenarios we have reasons for 'faith.'
Anyhow, this is irrelevant as the point I was trying to make was that it is just absurd that a supposedly omniscient being would demand faith in itself in order to win a prize.
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not exactly. Plenty of people become christians without any upbringing: plenty of muslims risk their lives to leave Islam and become christian. On the other hand plenty of people brought up as christian later desert it too.
It purely depends on personal conviction. |
You present the exception, not the rule. Of course there are individuals who later convert. However, to say that 'it purely depends on personal conviction' is just delusional. Statistically speaking, if you were born in Saudi Arabia, you would be a Muslim and most likely a genuine believer. Yes, it is possible that you may later convert, but it is HIGHLY unlikely.
The fact that you are a Christian is entirely due to a number of factors that were completely outside of your control. |
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furtakk
Joined: 02 Jun 2009
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| Posted: Sat Jul 25, 2009 2:53 pm Post subject: |
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| Julius wrote: |
i see you've gotten very stuck on this concept of "God's will". By your rationale then if you decide to stab someone then it is God's will, he somehow pre-ordained it. You're denying that you have any free will whatsoever to make a choice. "Should I buy the blue shirt or the red one?". Oh i bought the red, God made me do it.
No. What is quite easy for me to accept is the concept of sacred free will. People were given the ability to make choices independent of God's will.
I don't really see the problem with this. Sure god knew what choices we will make but that doesn't mean he is accountable for our choice. To have made a failsafe creation where nobody could commit sin brings us back to the old robots theory again. |
The concept of free will is not compatible with God. If God exists as we are to understand it, i.e. an omnipotent and omniscient being than you run into a problem.
God knows everything that will happen, when it wil happen, etc. Meaning the entire course of your life is known before you are born. Every decision you make, every action you partake in, etc.
Therefore, to act or decide contrary to what God knows would undermine his omniscience. Yet, to act exactly as you are supposed to undermines your free will. We either cannot be held responsible for our actions or God ain't as powerful as we think he is. |
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Sergio Stefanuto
Joined: 14 May 2009
Location: UK
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| Posted: Sat Jul 25, 2009 5:48 pm Post subject: |
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Islam goes a step further. Whilst in Christianity God arguably knows everything that will happen, he doesn't necessarily will it. Allaah, on the other hand, wills everything.
Allaah wills that the thief steals the bread and that the thief receives lashes. Allaah wills nonbelief - "Allaah hath blinded the unbelievers" - and wills that nonbelief be punished.
1.5 billion people believe this |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Sat Jul 25, 2009 6:06 pm Post subject: |
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| The internet is where theological discussion goes to die. |
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Sergio Stefanuto
Joined: 14 May 2009
Location: UK
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| Posted: Sat Jul 25, 2009 6:58 pm Post subject: |
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| Theological discussion is meaningless, pointless drivel to begin with |
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Manner of Speaking
Joined: 09 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Sat Jul 25, 2009 8:01 pm Post subject: |
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| Julius wrote: |
I'd assumed this thread had finished...but still going I see..
| Manner of Speaking wrote: |
| Yeah right. Humans were made in God's image but we can't fly, ... and we DIE.. |
Humans have been degenerating in ability since the fall. Imperfections have entered in, disease, genetic flaws, cancer, all kinds of stuff that has left us less than what the original human must have been like. Add in the migration and diversification into localised populations, inbreeding etc and we've lost or stopped expressing a lot of our original perfect genetic range.We die because of sin. If a robot malfunctions one day it will stop working, it is less than perfect. In former times men lived centuries, they were closer to God. Now we've come pretty far from that time, to us is given "threescore years and ten" on average. |
...there we go again, one lie compounding another. If humans were made in God's image, how could we be "degenerating in ability since the fall"? If we are "godlike", then we would be immortal and incapable of "degenerating".
It just goes on and on...the lying. When one falsehood is outed, another more elaborate rationalization and elaborate piece of hypothetical nonsense is brought in to try to explain the falsehood. Humans did not live "centuries" in previous ages. It's a flat-out lie as demonstrated by the archaeological record. Nor is there any archaeological evidence at all that humans could do "godlike" things like flying, parting the oceans, etc.
And another contradiction. If humans are made in God's image, why would he make something in his image and then later get jealous of man's potential abilities at the construction of the Tower of Babel and confuse their languages to scatter them on the face of the Earth? Either your god is schizophrenic. Or the simplest explanation is that no supernatural being ever had any influence over the evolution and history of Homo Sapiens. |
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Julius
Joined: 27 Jul 2006
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| Posted: Sun Jul 26, 2009 3:54 am Post subject: |
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| Fox wrote: |
| An omnipotent, omniscient God that created everything is the ultimate reason anything happens, and was fully aware of every consequence of his action, and thus holds at least some responsibility for everything that happens. |
This is obviously the entire crux of your point right now.
Ultimately, it is a mystery. Nobody can claim to know all of God's purpose. We are given only a blurry picture only of what and why. Our limited human minds, reason and logic cannot extend far enough to comprehend God fully. This is why we are supposed to have faith in God's purpose, justice and power rather than rely on our own understanding. In fact we cannot access God by our own logic or debate. I have been attempting to explain christian belief here only as a background. But in fact faith transcends human logic or understanding, its something you feel strongly that overrides all else. God is love, love need have no rational or logical justification in our limited perspective. Why would I believe in a God that appears to have some logical conundrums in our modern perspective? Because I realise our human perspective has never been 100% and never will be, that there is a higher knowledge that is beyond us. Thats where my faith lies. Sure we humans know a lot more than we knew 1000 years ago. but do we now know everything? Judging by the fact that even the most advanced scientists we have cannot make a single blade of grass in the lab, I think we're very, extremely far from that point.
| SeoulFinn wrote: |
| We know that cancer has been ailing and killing people for at least the last 3500 years. And remember that this is the first historical record of the disease that we know of: likely the people who were ancient even to the Egyptians were familiar with such a wasting disease. Interesting stuff, eh? |
Yes.. interesting. By my understanding diseases have increased and diversified with time due to the snowballing consequences of sin or mistakes entering the once-perfect creation. The spanner has slowly stuffed up the entire works, the earth is degrading. Species are being lost, ecosystems are increasingly damaged and flawed, humans and their genetic make & resistance is no longer as robust and effective as once was. We're on a scaled timeline from perfection towards destruction. How much longer can the system hold?
| Furtakk wrote: |
| The fact that you are a Christian is entirely due to a number of factors that were completely outside of your control. |
I would say that yes there is of course strong cultural programming, but that is still not enough to prevent an individual who earnestly seeks and desires within themselves to reach God. A sort of spiritual hunger. If e.g. a muslim finds themsleves inexplicably dissatisfied with their life and in their soul, they will naturally seek something else.If they seek relentlessly God will reveal himself to them. As the bible says..the problem is that so few people desire or seek God in the first place. They are content with what they're given.
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| Therefore, to act or decide contrary to what God knows would undermine his omniscience. |
I don't really get that. To me the fact that God knows what will occur does not eliminate our own free choices in the matter.If you decide to have kids i'm sure you know that one day they will make some mistakes somewhere. You can foresee that, does that mean you are responsible for their choices and actions?
| Furtakk wrote: |
| If it is the case that human beings were created in God's image, then how do you account for the constant change? At which point in the history of our species can we be considered to be an 'image of God?' |
Humans were created with all that they would need. A beneficient God, knowing the future and that people would need different strengths at different times to survive in a world that would change, created all that genetic variety present in the original humans. We just express different parts of that pre-existing original range. Humans that migrated to areas of rainforest needed to be smaller and more agile. They didn't acquire new genetic information to do this, they just expressed what was present but dormant.
| SergioStefanuto wrote: |
| Allaah wills nonbelief - "Allaah hath blinded the unbelievers" |
Christians would say that God does not will nonbeliefe, but "Satan has blinded the unbelievers".
| Kuros wrote: |
| The internet is where theological discussion goes to die. |
I would assert that any amount of academic debates you read, held in voluminous books may still not necessarily bring you any closer to faith..which cannot be accessed by strenuous exercises of ultimately limited human logic. Salvation is not to be accessed through multiple PhD courses, its a lot simpler and immediate than that. A spiritual transformation does not depend on logic.
| MannerOfSpeaking wrote: |
| If humans were made in God's image, how could we be "degenerating in ability since the fall"? If we are "godlike", then we would be immortal and incapable of "degenerating". |
"In his image" means in the same form. God has legs and arms just the same.
We were immortal until the first man made a mistake. If a single rivet is removed from your perfect jumbo jet it will ultimately cause it to crash by spreading weaknesses to the whole. Just a matter of time. |
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Manner of Speaking
Joined: 09 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Sun Jul 26, 2009 7:22 am Post subject: |
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| Julius wrote: |
| MannerOfSpeaking wrote: |
| If humans were made in God's image, how could we be "degenerating in ability since the fall"? If we are "godlike", then we would be immortal and incapable of "degenerating". |
"In his image" means in the same form. God has legs and arms just the same. |
Who cares. What honest difference would it make if a supernatural being created a biological being that also had arms and legs? Or an appendix or a navel or a receeding hairline for that matter? Your statement is is meaningless because it can be neither proved nor disproved.
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| We were immortal until the first man made a mistake. If a single rivet is removed from your perfect jumbo jet it will ultimately cause it to crash by spreading weaknesses to the whole. Just a matter of time. |
Since your previous assertion that humans lived centuries in earlier ages can be effortlessly demonstrated to be false, and since there is absolutely no archaeological record of a Garden of Eden or a Tree of Knowledge, this is obviously equally made up BS. |
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Julius
Joined: 27 Jul 2006
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| Posted: Sun Jul 26, 2009 8:34 am Post subject: |
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| Fox wrote: |
1) All humans are imperfect. None the less, not all humans go to Hell according to you. Clearly, it is not logically necessary for God to send imperfect people to Hell. Alternatively, you're claiming Christians are perfect, which is so stupid that I don't believe you are claiming that.. |
No. All humans are imperfect, of course. All have sinned, done wrong in some way, made mistakes or whatever.
The only difference is that people can be forgiven for their sin, if they ask Jesus for forgiveness, and to save them. Jesus was a sacrifice in your place, in place of mankind. If you believe and ask him to save you from sin and eternal death, grants salvation for you, to be presented acceptable to God. This rescue from hell and sin is not by your own effort. If salvation was by humans trying extra hard to be good, it would still never be good enough.
As Jesus was an innocent, blameless and pure sacrifice, he also justifies before God those who ask him. He is our mediator, our bridge back to God. These penitent and faithful become free from the condemnation that is on the earth, a spiritual transformation. They are freed from the natural penalty and consequences for their sin. |
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Proustian
Joined: 06 Jan 2008
Location: penniless in Pusan
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| Posted: Mon Jul 27, 2009 4:48 am Post subject: |
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Julius, my learned friend, ask yourself one simple question.
Would a 1st century working class Jew really care about your middle class white gentile ass?
Its time for Christians to leave Jesus to the history books and venerate your true puppet master...Saul, er Paul.
He is the true originator of your heresy, and it is under his guise that you will be 'saved'.
As for God, convert to Judaism if you fear hell 
Sorry for the history lesson but you seem to confuse fact with fundamental christian dogma - most people can differentiate between the two.
Have a nice day  |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Mon Jul 27, 2009 6:46 am Post subject: |
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| Julius wrote: |
| Fox wrote: |
1) All humans are imperfect. None the less, not all humans go to Hell according to you. Clearly, it is not logically necessary for God to send imperfect people to Hell. Alternatively, you're claiming Christians are perfect, which is so stupid that I don't believe you are claiming that.. |
No. All humans are imperfect, of course. All have sinned, done wrong in some way, made mistakes or whatever.
The only difference is that people can be forgiven for their sin, if they ask Jesus for forgiveness, and to save them. Jesus was a sacrifice in your place, in place of mankind. If you believe and ask him to save you from sin and eternal death, grants salvation for you, to be presented acceptable to God. This rescue from hell and sin is not by your own effort. If salvation was by humans trying extra hard to be good, it would still never be good enough.
As Jesus was an innocent, blameless and pure sacrifice, he also justifies before God those who ask him. He is our mediator, our bridge back to God. These penitent and faithful become free from the condemnation that is on the earth, a spiritual transformation. They are freed from the natural penalty and consequences for their sin. |
You keep responding as if you're either not fully understanding my point, or you are ignoring my point.
I don't care about God's hypothetical forgiveness. It's not about that. It's not about admission to Heaven or anything else. It's about the torture. I'm not saying God needs to accept imperfect people (though as you yourself say, under some circumstances he clearly does accept imperfect people). I'm merely saying that there are options between "I accept you into Heaven," and "I consign you to eternal torture in Hell." A benevolent, omnipotent deity has no need to have people tortured. Any being which consigns anyone to eternal torture is not benevolent, they are evil. This is especially true when said omnipotent, omniscient being deliberately and knowingly created a universe in which the vast majority of the humans he made would end up suffering in Hell. I don't care what reason he could have for such a thing, that's messed up.
You asked me once something along the lines of, "If God really wanted to hurt people, why didn't he just create them and immediately start torturing them?" From a timeless, immortal perspective like your alleged God's, he pretty much did! It's only in fairly recent times comparatively that people in any number started getting saved, and it was a substantial minority of the world's population. For God, it would have been the blink of an eye. |
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