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whome33
Joined: 08 Jun 2009
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 Posted: Mon Jul 27, 2009 7:48 pm Post subject: |
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| CentralCali wrote: |
| I'm talking about your opinion where you state the JWs aren't Christian. I've already mentioned the simple fact that there are a number of Christian denominations that don't consider Jesus to be divine. |
Such as? |
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teachergirltoo
Joined: 28 Oct 2006
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| Posted: Mon Jul 27, 2009 8:32 pm Post subject: |
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| whome33 wrote: |
| teachergirltoo wrote: |
Just to clarify a few points:
1. Jehovah's Witnesses are Christians. We believe in Christ and follow his teachings. This last year the conventions conducted worldwide for members and interested ones were titled: "Follow The Christ!"
2. We follow and accept the same Bible as all other Christians. NIV, King James, Living English and many others. We distribute the New World Translation only because we print Bibles to distribute free of charge to people that don't already have one, and it is recognized by Bible scholars as being accurate in translation. But a person is welcome to use whatever one they are comfortable with.
3. We don't believe we're going to heaven when we die, except as mentioned previously a small group. It has nothing to do with competition or getting points or how much good a person can do on Earth. That is not the reason we are out there doing volunteer work in Bible teaching, and in other ways in the communities.
I and my other Witness friends here totally respect the Mormons, Muslims, and Christian denominations here too. I have met a lot of people with strong faiths here in Korea, and really like seeing that something matters so much to them, and gives their lives that much more joy. |
Well I'm certainly not going to argue about what you personally believe. But what you said, and what is on the watchtower's website is a little contradictory. |
There are no contradictions in what I wrote. If you would like to read detailed explainations, here is the link to the website discussing our beliefs: http://watchtower.org/e/jt/article_03.htm |
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Captain Corea
Joined: 28 Feb 2005
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Mon Jul 27, 2009 9:04 pm Post subject: |
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| whome33 wrote: |
| teachergirltoo wrote: |
Just to clarify a few points:
1. Jehovah's Witnesses are Christians. We believe in Christ and follow his teachings. This last year the conventions conducted worldwide for members and interested ones were titled: "Follow The Christ!"
2. We follow and accept the same Bible as all other Christians. NIV, King James, Living English and many others. We distribute the New World Translation only because we print Bibles to distribute free of charge to people that don't already have one, and it is recognized by Bible scholars as being accurate in translation. But a person is welcome to use whatever one they are comfortable with.
3. We don't believe we're going to heaven when we die, except as mentioned previously a small group. It has nothing to do with competition or getting points or how much good a person can do on Earth. That is not the reason we are out there doing volunteer work in Bible teaching, and in other ways in the communities.
I and my other Witness friends here totally respect the Mormons, Muslims, and Christian denominations here too. I have met a lot of people with strong faiths here in Korea, and really like seeing that something matters so much to them, and gives their lives that much more joy. |
Well I'm certainly not going to argue about what you personally believe. But what you said, and what is on the watchtower's website is a little contradictory. |
Then by all means, quote them. I'd be curious to see them. |
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whome33
Joined: 08 Jun 2009
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| Posted: Mon Jul 27, 2009 9:40 pm Post subject: |
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[quote="teachergirltoo"][quote="whome33"]
| teachergirltoo wrote: |
Just to clarify a few points:
1. Jehovah's Witnesses are Christians. We believe in Christ and follow his teachings. This last year the conventions conducted worldwide for members and interested ones were titled: "Follow The Christ!"
There are no contradictions in what I wrote. If you would like to read detailed explainations, here is the link to the website discussing our beliefs: http://watchtower.org/e/jt/article_03.htm |
Well in my opinion, believing and following Christ's teachings includes what he claimed about himself. In the KJV and NIV translations ( since you recognize those) he says to his disciples ' if you have seen me, you have seen the Father" and he says "I am in the Father, and the Father is in me".
But on your website it states that Jesus is inferior to God. Seems to be a contradiction there.
In addition, I don't think that anyone can claim to be a Christian, but not believe that Jesus is divine. The entire belief hinges on this. His death and sacrifice is only relevant if he is divine. I'm not trying to preach on an esl message board, I'm just saying... if someone says they're a Christian, but doesn't believe Jesus is divine, it's as rediculous as a muslum not believing the prophet mohhomad was spoken to by the angel Gabriel in the cave, or a rabbi not believing Moses was given the 10 commandments on Mt Sinai.
Any argument contrary to this is just out of ignorance. |
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Captain Corea
Joined: 28 Feb 2005
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Mon Jul 27, 2009 9:50 pm Post subject: |
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| whome33 wrote: |
| Well in my opinion, believing and following Christ's teachings includes what he claimed about himself. In the KJV and NIV translations ( since you recognize those) he says to his disciples ' if you have seen me, you have seen the Father" and he says "I am in the Father, and the Father is in me". |
That could be read as 'they are one', or that they share many aspects. Is it not possible that there are different interpretations of passages in the bible?
| Quote: |
In addition, I don't think that anyone can claim to be a Christian, but not believe that Jesus is divine. The entire belief hinges on this. His death and sacrifice is only relevant if he is divine. I'm not trying to preach on an esl message board, I'm just saying... if someone says they're a Christian, but doesn't believe Jesus is divine, it's as rediculous as a muslum not believing the prophet mohhomad was spoken to by the angel Gabriel in the cave, or a rabbi not believing Moses was given the 10 commandments on Mt Sinai.
Any argument contrary to this is just out of ignorance. |
Divine = Godlike
Is there a specific belief/teaching of JWs that has said that Jesus is definitely not 'Godlike'? |
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AgentM
Joined: 07 Jun 2009
Location: British Columbia, Canada
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| Posted: Mon Jul 27, 2009 10:26 pm Post subject: |
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| whome33 wrote: |
Well in my opinion, believing and following Christ's teachings includes what he claimed about himself. In the KJV and NIV translations ( since you recognize those) he says to his disciples ' if you have seen me, you have seen the Father" and he says "I am in the Father, and the Father is in me".
But on your website it states that Jesus is inferior to God. Seems to be a contradiction there.
In addition, I don't think that anyone can claim to be a Christian, but not believe that Jesus is divine. The entire belief hinges on this. His death and sacrifice is only relevant if he is divine. I'm not trying to preach on an esl message board, I'm just saying... if someone says they're a Christian, but doesn't believe Jesus is divine, it's as rediculous as a muslum not believing the prophet mohhomad was spoken to by the angel Gabriel in the cave, or a rabbi not believing Moses was given the 10 commandments on Mt Sinai.
Any argument contrary to this is just out of ignorance. |
It was only at the Council of Nicaea that it was officially decided that Jesus was the literal son of God rather than a figurative one.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Council_of_Nicaea
These things are never as set in stone as you might think. |
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teachergirltoo
Joined: 28 Oct 2006
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| Posted: Mon Jul 27, 2009 10:30 pm Post subject: |
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[quote="whome33"][quote="teachergirltoo"][quote="whome33"]
| teachergirltoo wrote: |
/quote]
Well in my opinion, believing and following Christ's teachings includes what he claimed about himself. In the KJV and NIV translations ( since you recognize those) he says to his disciples ' if you have seen me, you have seen the Father" and he says "I am in the Father, and the Father is in me".
But on your website it states that Jesus is inferior to God. Seems to be a contradiction there.
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I have the scripture that you quoted on my lap in the NIV Bible at this moment. John 14:9. At the bottom of the page are the scholars footnotes that say: "Once more Jesus stresses the intimate connection between the Father and himself. Jesus brought a full revelation of the Father, so that the disciples had a full knowledge of him". All this reveals is that Jesus acted in such a way that his followers, by looking at him, knew how his Father also stood on matters. It totally supports John 14:28, where Jesus clearly states in the NIV Bible that he is going to his Father, and that is Father is greater than him, and Matt 3:17 and the other scriptures as listed on the website noting that Jesus is God's son. He represented his father to the T in action and words. Being inferior to someone is not a negative thing - it just means he has a different position.
Secondly, divine does not in every instance refer to the Almighty God. It also refers to beings and things that descend from God or are godlike in personality or mannerism. I have attached a link to an article that I thought was excellent in discussing the source of this word as used in various scriptures in the Bible: http://www.flickr.com/photos/19097291@N00/3765059014/sizes/o/
I am not a whiz at uploading links so I hope this works. |
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Lukychrm42
Joined: 09 Oct 2008
Location: Cheonan
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| Posted: Mon Jul 27, 2009 10:33 pm Post subject: |
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I'm used to being approached and to shooing away the cards/maps/etc.
But a friend of mine here who's studying English brought me an English magazine because she thought I'd appreciate something in English to read.... she didn't realize it was a Watchtower magazine (so she says, lol).
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wesharris
Joined: 10 Oct 2008
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| Posted: Tue Jul 28, 2009 12:13 am Post subject: |
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[quote="teachergirltoo"][quote="whome33"][quote="teachergirltoo"]
| whome33 wrote: |
| teachergirltoo wrote: |
/quote]
Well in my opinion, believing and following Christ's teachings includes what he claimed about himself. In the KJV and NIV translations ( since you recognize those) he says to his disciples ' if you have seen me, you have seen the Father" and he says "I am in the Father, and the Father is in me".
But on your website it states that Jesus is inferior to God. Seems to be a contradiction there.
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I have the scripture that you quoted on my lap in the NIV Bible at this moment. John 14:9. At the bottom of the page are the scholars footnotes that say: "Once more Jesus stresses the intimate connection between the Father and himself. Jesus brought a full revelation of the Father, so that the disciples had a full knowledge of him". All this reveals is that Jesus acted in such a way that his followers, by looking at him, knew how his Father also stood on matters. It totally supports John 14:28, where Jesus clearly states in the NIV Bible that he is going to his Father, and that is Father is greater than him, and Matt 3:17 and the other scriptures as listed on the website noting that Jesus is God's son. He represented his father to the T in action and words. Being inferior to someone is not a negative thing - it just means he has a different position.
Secondly, divine does not in every instance refer to the Almighty God. It also refers to beings and things that descend from God or are godlike in personality or mannerism. I have attached a link to an article that I thought was excellent in discussing the source of this word as used in various scriptures in the Bible: http://www.flickr.com/photos/19097291@N00/3765059014/sizes/o/
I am not a whiz at uploading links so I hope this works. |
Jesus is God
There are many approaches one can take when exploring this question in the New Testament. Here are some of them:
His remarkable claims (see Is Jesus really God).
He is constantly given the title "Lord", the word that was consistently used of God in the Greek translation of the Old Testament of the third century BC.
He is referred to as God a number of times (e.g. John 20:2 . Paul can declare, "in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form" (Colossians 2:9). John says, "He (Jesus) is the true God and eternal life" (1 John 5:20). In the Old Testament he is called "the mighty God" (Isaiah 9:6) the same two Hebrew words used of God in a number of places (e.g. Isaiah 10:21; Jeremiah 32:1.
His pre-existence before coming into this world is constantly assumed and sometimes directly stated (e.g. John 1:1,14).
He was involved in the creation of the universe and it is his power that sustains it (e.g. Colossians 1: 16,17; Hebrews 1: 2,3).
His role as judge of the human race (e.g. John 5:25-29; 2 Corinthians 5:10).
His achievements in reconciling men and women to God and meeting their needs on the journey through life are often described in the same terms as the achievements of God the Father. Their roles often overlap (e.g. 2 Corinthians 5:19; and compare Hebrews 8:12 with Mark 2:5-7). That Paul, an avowed monotheist, should attribute every imaginable activity to him that Judaism reserved for God alone is particularly significant.
There are numerous passages showing that we are to give him the same love, loyalty and devotion that we are required to give to God.
He receives the same worship of created beings, in heaven and on earth, as does God the Father (e.g. Revelation 5:11-14 - Jesus is constantly referred to as "the Lamb" in Revelation, the one who was sacrificed for us).
There are quite a number of passages from the Old Testament, quoted in the New Testament, where the original references refer to God, while the New Testament writers refer them to Jesus (e.g. Matthew 21:15,16/Psalm 8:1,2; Philippians 2:9-11/Isaiah 45:22,23).
There are numerous titles or metaphors used of Jesus that are also used of God, such as Saviour, Rock, Light, the Bridegroom, the first and the last, Alpha and Omega, I am, King of Kings and Lord of Lords, Shepherd, Master, etc.
The fact that Paul, a person steeped in the Old Testament understanding of the Spirit of God, should so easily call him the Spirit of Christ as well, is as strong a confirmation as one could get of Christ's full divinity (e.g. Romans 8:9). |
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FMPJ
Joined: 03 Jun 2008
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| Posted: Tue Jul 28, 2009 12:42 am Post subject: |
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JW's come to my apartment and wake me up at least one weekend morning per month (before 10 AM). I tell them I'm not interested and they should leave, but--and this is my favorite part--they only pretend to leave, waiting around the corner until I'm back inside, then they sneak back out and start ringing all the other apartments. I can clearly hear this, and I again chase them away (often with the help of my neighbors).
But they KEEP COMING BACK.
That's not only annoying, it's bad advertising: who wants to support a God who thinks it's a good idea to bother people on Sunday morning when they're trying to sleep in after a hard workweek?
If that's God's agenda, then count me out. |
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teachergirltoo
Joined: 28 Oct 2006
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| Posted: Tue Jul 28, 2009 1:55 am Post subject: |
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| It was not my intention to debate doctrine here. I just wanted to clarify a couple items that were said to be contradictions in my initial statement. As I said before, each of us can make an informed choice of a belief system, and then respect others that believe differently. It's nice to see others appreciate, and have strong founded spiritual beliefs also. |
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wesharris
Joined: 10 Oct 2008
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| Posted: Tue Jul 28, 2009 4:55 am Post subject: |
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| teachergirltoo wrote: |
| It was not my intention to debate doctrine here. I just wanted to clarify a couple items that were said to be contradictions in my initial statement. As I said before, each of us can make an informed choice of a belief system, and then respect others that believe differently. It's nice to see others appreciate, and have strong founded spiritual beliefs also. |
Oh my beliefs are the antithesis to most Christianic beliefs. Satan is the bringer of light. The Flying Spaghetti Monster is the bringer of creation.
And, the invisible pink unicorn is wonderful.
_+_
Wes |
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Captain Corea
Joined: 28 Feb 2005
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Tue Jul 28, 2009 5:06 am Post subject: |
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| wesharris wrote: |
His role as judge of the human race (e.g. John 5:25-29; 2 Corinthians 5:10). |
((I picked a scripture at random))
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| 24"I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life. 25I tell you the truth, a time is coming and has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who hear will live. 26For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son to have life in himself. 27And he has given him authority to judge because he is the Son of Man. |
Sounds like he is referring to two people (/entities) to me. |
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wesharris
Joined: 10 Oct 2008
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| Posted: Tue Jul 28, 2009 5:10 am Post subject: |
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I just google searched.
Much easier.
_+_+
Wes
| Captain Corea wrote: |
| wesharris wrote: |
His role as judge of the human race (e.g. John 5:25-29; 2 Corinthians 5:10). |
((I picked a scripture at random))
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| 24"I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life. 25I tell you the truth, a time is coming and has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who hear will live. 26For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son to have life in himself. 27And he has given him authority to judge because he is the Son of Man. |
Sounds like he is referring to two people (/entities) to me. |
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nuorange
Joined: 20 Jul 2007
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| Posted: Wed Jul 29, 2009 5:17 am Post subject: |
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Most orthodox Christians hold that Mormons and JW's are not Christians for the following reasons:
1. They both believe that salvation comes, at least in part, through what you do. However, the Bible clearly says God gives us salvation as a gift because he loves us, independent of anything we have done or will do or can do. Ephesians 2:8-9
2. They believe in more than one God. JW's have God and Jesus (who is a "little g" god) and therefore reject monotheism as such. Mormons believe there are many different gods (through they don't worship all of them) and that you can eventually become a god yourself. The Bible, however, clearly teaches the Trinity: One God, three persons. Isaiah 43:10, Colossians 2:9
Incidentally, saying Jesus' divinity and the Trinity wasn't invented until Nicea is like saying gravity didn't exist until Newton. Truth exists independent of the discovery, discussion or ratification of it. Both teachings can be easily found in the Bible and were taught prior to Nicea. (More information at http://www.carm.org/christianity/christian-doctrine)
Because of these, and other reasons, orthodox Christianity holds that Mormons & JW's are not Christians. The Bible clearly says there is only one God and that the only way to heaven is through faith and that to teach something different separates oneself from the teachings of the Bible.
That being said, there is a lot of anger around the whole subject and many people dive in emotions first, brains second. If people took the time to respectfully enter into discussion and deal with things in a relational format, instead of a discussion board with no accountability for what is said, more clarity & mutual understanding would develop. People, after all, are still people. It is these people (i.e. all of us) that God loves and died to save. |
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