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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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 Posted: Sun Jul 26, 2009 11:31 am Post subject: |
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| Now, according to them, for example, the Second World War becomes a story about how white-male dominated America served capitalism's interests, failed to pass a civil rights act, and then, after forcing women and mothers to work in unsafe conditions, forced them back into domesticity, etc., etc., etc. Gone are any reference at all to the Nazis or the Japanese or that which the Second World War was really about. And what remains is a dark story of the Great Satan and its unabated greed and abusivness. |
What? Nooo. Have they fallen this far off the deep end? Does anybody challenge this nonsense? When/how does this obsession run out of steam? |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Sun Jul 26, 2009 2:16 pm Post subject: |
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Several colleagues are participating in the ongoing, raging national debate re: American history. This is the story they want jr.-high and high-school textbooks to tell.
The independence era, to cite another example, becomes a story of how the cowardly, racist founding fathers failed to liberate the slaves when they had the chance... |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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| Posted: Sun Jul 26, 2009 2:33 pm Post subject: |
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| Gopher wrote: |
| Several colleagues are participating in the ongoing, raging national debate re: American history. This is the story they want jr.-high and high-school textbooks to tell. |
Raging animosities, eh? |
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kabrams
Joined: 15 Mar 2008
Location: your Dad's house
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| Posted: Sun Jul 26, 2009 2:50 pm Post subject: |
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| mises wrote: |
So I guess police have to go easy on blacks or be racist. That's the situation. But blacks are 7 times more likely to murder etc. So that creates unsafe cities. I've been googling around to see if this has been done and, gosh, it has.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De-policing
Anyways, I strongly believe that the more diverse a society is the more unmanageable it will become.
In the United States, Blacks and Hispanics (of the 'native' variety) will never, ever, ever match Jews, whites, East Asians and South Asians in earning power and other measures of social health. The black family isn't in crises. It simply does not exist.
To accomplish equality you will have to hold back the high achieving groups to allow the low achieving groups to catch up. The inequality in crime stats and ergo arrest stats (blacks commit an astonishing amount of crime given their numbers and are therefore arrested more and police come to be suspicious of young black men) will not be erased. Meaning whites, Asians, middle class blacks and Latinos will push themselves farther and farther away from black areas and those black areas will starve for tax funds, making them more dysfunctional and so on. |
This is so racist. So so so racist. So racist! RACIST RACIST RACIST. Raaaaaaaaaacist. Racist! Very racist.
How many more times can I say that?
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As more information becomes available, Gates' claims about being victimized by racism become harder to believe. Crowley has been an instructor at the police academy of a class on racial profiling for five years. |
Strom Thurman was a virulent racist and segregationist yet he fathered a daughter with a black woman. Ted Haggard was a preacher who condemned homosexuality yet solicited gay sex from a prostitute.
You can preach one thing and then do the complete opposite.
Anyway, I have to ask why at least two people in this thread have made unprovoked racist comments. It boggles my mind how you think this is normal behavior. |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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| Posted: Sun Jul 26, 2009 2:58 pm Post subject: |
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Why is it racist? Blacks commit much more violent crime than whites and as a consequence whites "flight" pulling their tax base with them, further destroying the ability of the state/city to help blacks recover from the various historical trauma inflicted upon them. Do you think Detroit is virtually white-free because the weather in the suburbs is better?
But even assuming that the discrepancies in education, family structure, incarceration, health etc are wiped clean blacks won't 'catch up' because whites and others are still advancing forward. Every generation improves on the previous (on balance). To equal everything between groups the state will need to put a boot on the necks of Asians/Whites etc while the lower achieving groups catch up. This would be politically impossible to achieve. |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Sun Jul 26, 2009 3:28 pm Post subject: |
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| mises wrote: |
| Raging animosities, eh? |
Yes. But mostly just pointless, irrelevant counter-factuals. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Sun Jul 26, 2009 4:39 pm Post subject: |
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Gopher I totally agree on the extremeties of that mob. Like most groups, it seems that sadly the most active members are the most extreme. We all know the difference between the just advocate who simply aims for a spirit of cooperation and the agenda pushing barrier maker. Happens on all sides of power and politics. I don't really know where to go from here after saying all that, but...
For mises and his carrying on and on... Do you know what Prince George's County is?
The reason for the destruction of the inner cities wasn't white flight, it was black flight. De-segregation did have its drawbacks. Before, a kids could wake up and look out and see professional people who looked like him/her. Now that is not the case.
The seperating of neighborhoods by highways caused a big problem with Detroit.
Detroit is not white-free, and the suburbs aren't exclusively white. Got to Livonia and Southfield and there are a mix of people both in race and class.
And yes in some white suburbs DWB (Driving While Black) happens. My former roomate, a firefighter, dressed in a button down and driving a Volvo with the Firefighters Union tag on the car, was pulled over because he 'wasn't from around here' and asked who he was seeing. That was the reason they gave.
Now he didn't throw anykind of hissy fit and the cops sent him on his merry way with out being nasty about things. But everyone knew what was going on, him and the cops. He was pulled over simply because of his race to make sure he wasn't anyone bad. It sucks and it happens a lot. |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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| Posted: Sun Jul 26, 2009 4:49 pm Post subject: |
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In this case the prof should not have been arrested, though he was arrested not for his race but his belligerence. Cops are pricks.
However, this event has brought up the topic of profiling. Profiling, given the demographics of crime, is reasonable and necessary. I'd rather it not be necessary but it is.
The 'achievement gap' is either widening or stable, depending on who is reporting it. The McKinsey study a few weeks back was depressing reading. The future will not be one of more racial equality but less. Education is everything in the modern economy. These issues are only going to become more divisive going forward.
I'm well aware that Detroit isn't 100% black, nor the suburbs totally white. I used the word "virtually", after all. |
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kabrams
Joined: 15 Mar 2008
Location: your Dad's house
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| Posted: Sun Jul 26, 2009 8:10 pm Post subject: |
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| mises wrote: |
Why is it racist? Blacks commit much more violent crime than whites and as a consequence whites "flight" pulling their tax base with them, further destroying the ability of the state/city to help blacks recover from the various historical trauma inflicted upon them. Do you think Detroit is virtually white-free because the weather in the suburbs is better?
But even assuming that the discrepancies in education, family structure, incarceration, health etc are wiped clean blacks won't 'catch up' because whites and others are still advancing forward. Every generation improves on the previous (on balance). To equal everything between groups the state will need to put a boot on the necks of Asians/Whites etc while the lower achieving groups catch up. This would be politically impossible to achieve. |
Actually, white flight in Detroit happened because as more people could afford to move out into the suburbs, they did. This was not because of a huge black crime wave, this was because more people had good jobs from the car industry, which allowed them to buy bigger homes. This was also coupled with the idea that blacks moving into your neighborhood meant it was time to move. This was happening in the 60s.
This is why Detroit is 80% non-white while the surrounding suburbs are extremely white.
I also like your blanket "black crime rate" comment. You fail to specify what areas you're talking about (if you are at all) and how the rates compare to other groups.
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| The black family isn't in crises. It simply does not exist. |
Yeah, okay. More uninformed BS.  You sound like the people who said there are more black men in prison than in college. Or that there are a bunch of welfare queens running around, lol. |
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ManintheMiddle
Joined: 20 Oct 2008
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| Posted: Sun Jul 26, 2009 9:02 pm Post subject: |
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Glad to see the ongoing discourse has taken a contemplative turn. Sometimes the CE Forum rocks, to use the current lingo. Wish it were so in the public arena as well but as more than one poster has pointed out here, the victimhood bandwagon is going to keep on rolling until they're satisfied.
howie documented:
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| So Massachusetts law clearly provides that Gates did not commit disorderly conduct. |
Yes, that's accurate, and the ACLU has concurred (not that I usually hold them in high esteem, though). It might very well be the overriding reason why the charges were dropped but I maintain the CPD had no wish to pursue the matter, regardless. What bothers me are ardent Gates' supporters who can't even acknowledge the neutrality of the police department. It just goes to show how deep-seated their suspicions are, justified or not. The rulings beg the question, then: if Crowley followed policy to the letter, as has been widely reported, then perhaps the policy is not consistent with these recent legal decisions in the State. That would be worth exploring, as I'm sure it would if Gates goes forward with his lawsuit. Also, as Gopher pointed out, there might be discretionary authoritiy involved here. Crowley might have felt, however, that Gates was inciting unrest by going into histrionics on the lawn too although that would seem to be a stretch to conclude.
Gopher noted:
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| Let us also hope that J. Crowley sees B. Obama's "invitation" for what it is: a propaganda ambush. |
Your take on the upcoming tete-a-tete between Gates and Crowley at the White House is a likely scenario. As I said, I hope I'm wrong and Hussein arises to the occasion. But given that both he and Gates are so eager to use this as a platform for their long suppressed views of racial proflling, it seems unlikely. Unless Gates openly admits to fanning the flames, I don't think Crowley should budge but the White House setting might intimidate him.
It also offends me that H. Gates and his lawyer are now threatening J. Crowley and his department with blackmail by insinuation...
mises defending himself against kabrams:
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| because whites and others are still advancing forward. Every generation improves on the previous |
I'm not sure I agree here, although I think I see what you're trying to get at. For instance, there is arguably more family dysfunction (e.g. brought on by a sharp increase in teenage pregnancy, drug use, and absent parents) now than ever before, across racial lines. Hold your hat on this next one, kabrams, but I must agree with you that by essentializing all poor Blacks you're on flimsy racial ground. Then again, you discern between them and middle class Blacks, so you might better be accused of elitism. And let's not forget: one might make the same argument about many if not most poor Whites. Still, it is true that Black flight from the inner city is occurring for most of the same reasons as White flight, and this is often brushed off by those like Sharpton who vociferously defend the poor Black community.
kabrams responding to mises:
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| You can preach one thing and then do the complete opposite. |
So are you insinuating that Crowley MIGHT be a racist regardless or just trying to make a counterargument? One thing is clear to me but lost on both Hussein and Gates: to expect that Whites must prove they are not racist to resolve issues like this but not expect the same of the Black participant is a double standard at best and racist at worst. As I said before on this thread, this prevailing notion that the onus is always on Whites in racially charged situations to exonerate themselves smacks of the very thing Blacks criticize about racial profiling: being guilty until proven innocent. I hope you'll agree that if we plan to really move racial dialogue forward in this country, we must all resist guilt by association litigation. To our credit, while we still have a "race problem," I believe we're doing more to talk about it than other multicultural societies. Would you at least agree with that?
Sidebar: Last Friday, on the Jim Bohannon Show (an excellent radio show broadcast nationwide on Westwood One, by the way), a 20 year veteran lawyer for the ACLU and White female refused to acknowledge that Blacks commit a highly disproportionate share of crimes and even accused another guest of racial overtones for even mentioning it. This sort of knee-jerk reaction hasn't been helpful to the dialogue. And you can't have a fruitful one if most of the reasonable talk is occurring on one side and not the other. If you don't believe me, check out Gates' own blog, "The Root," which has been an outlet for Black intellectual and lay opinion. Read through the comments posted there and you'll see what I mean.
SteelRails noted:
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| And yes in some white suburbs DWB (Driving While Black) happens. My former roomate, a firefighter, dressed in a button down and driving a Volvo with the Firefighters Union tag on the car, was pulled over because he 'wasn't from around here' and asked who he was seeing. That was the reason they gave. |
No question that it does happen, and that is very unfortunate and inexcusable, really, especially as you describe it. In the interest of healthy debate, I apologize for going off on you earlier in this thread. At the risk of condescension, you seem like a reasonable sort, despite our disagreements on some points.
But:
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| why did he ask an already loud Mr. Gates to come outside? |
Crowley wanted to keep him in his range of sight and have him there to converse with Harvard (not Cambridge) PD, if necessary. Remember the property falls under the jursidiction of the Harvard PD too. Nothing unreasonable about that request unless you want to assign ulterior motive to everything Crowley did, which is what Gates has done.
I guess what casts aspersion on Gates for me is how he keeps wanting to use this as an excuse to discuss his real bone of contention--racial profiling--which in this instance did not occur. But now that he's stuck his neck out he's probably won't retract his accusations. Maybe a few beers will loosen him up. |
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kabrams
Joined: 15 Mar 2008
Location: your Dad's house
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| Posted: Sun Jul 26, 2009 9:18 pm Post subject: |
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So are you insinuating that Crowley MIGHT be a racist regardless or just trying to make a counterargument? |
I'm saying that people do things counter to their professional (or personal) work all the time--like a white racist segregationist who fathers a biracial black child.
While I do think it's a good indication of the cop as a person, I don't think it's the final say in what happened.
To be honest, I don't think the cop is racist. I think the cop got pissed at Gates and baited him to the porch so that he could arrest him. Gates, having lived in Cambridge and probably witnessed racist things that happen there at lot, took it at face value that the cop was/is prejudiced.
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| One thing is clear to me but lost on both Hussein and Gates: |
Who is Hussein? I'm confused.
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| to expect that Whites must prove they are not racist to resolve issues like this but not expect the same of the Black participant is a double standard at best and racist at worst. As I said before on this thread, this prevailing notion that the onus is always on Whites in racially charged situations to exonerate themselves smacks of the very thing Blacks criticize about racial profiling: being guilty until proven innocent. I hope you'll agree that if we plan to really move racial dialogue forward in this country, we must all resist guilt by association litigation. To our credit, while we still have a "race problem," I believe we're doing more to talk about it than other multicultural societies. Would you at least agree with that? |
I agree that whites having to prove they are guilty until proven innocent in the court of public opinion is pretty much a given. But in today's society, you also must prove you are not homophobic, are not sexist, and are not ageist, mostly because traditionally, it has been the other way around--that is, the burden was on women to prove sexism, gays to prove homophobia, and ALANA to prove racism.
Legally, you actually have to prove sexism, racism, etc. |
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ManintheMiddle
Joined: 20 Oct 2008
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| Posted: Sun Jul 26, 2009 9:30 pm Post subject: |
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kabrams:
Glad we can see almost eye-to-eye on this although I would add that Gates' overreaction was a combination of jet lag, frustration over his door being jammed, what you pointed out, and also entitlement: both racial and class. We shall see how Gates manipulates the situation after his beer with Hussein at the White House. If he comes clean, and Crowley admits to overacting too, then all is well (at least until the next racial incident flares up). I think you'll agree that the Ghost of Racism does still haunt us greatly. But while we should bear that in mind, it doesn't entitle SOME Blacks to use accusations of race as a cover for their own egregious conduct.
On another matter: the girl in your avatar is smoking, despite her corn rows. |
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kabrams
Joined: 15 Mar 2008
Location: your Dad's house
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| Posted: Sun Jul 26, 2009 10:37 pm Post subject: |
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| ManintheMiddle wrote: |
kabrams:
Glad we can see almost eye-to-eye on this although I would add that Gates' overreaction was a combination of jet lag, frustration over his door being jammed, what you pointed out, and also entitlement: both racial and class. We shall see how Gates manipulates the situation after his beer with Hussein at the White House. If he comes clean, and Crowley admits to overacting too, then all is well (at least until the next racial incident flares up). I think you'll agree that the Ghost of Racism does still haunt us greatly. But while we should bear that in mind, it doesn't entitle SOME Blacks to use accusations of race as a cover for their own egregious conduct.
On another matter: the girl in your avatar is smoking, despite her corn rows. |
And I'd have to say that we also have to look out for SOME white people who like to play the "Who, me?" card when it comes to racism.
Also, the woman in my avatar is not wearing corn rows, she's wearing Malian braids. |
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MollyBloom
Joined: 21 Jul 2006
Location: James Joyce's pants
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Captain Corea
Joined: 28 Feb 2005
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Mon Jul 27, 2009 10:09 pm Post subject: |
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| When I heard about this, I didn't really think about race, but rather home property rights. |
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