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AgentM
Joined: 07 Jun 2009
Location: British Columbia, Canada
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 Posted: Mon Jul 27, 2009 8:50 pm Post subject: |
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The problem with foreigners is that only the loud, obnoxious, or otherwise poor mannered ones get noticed and make headlines. This is what the stereotypes stem from.
It's the same with American tourists in much of the world. Most Americans are perfectly nice people. However, a few Americans have unfortunately given their fellow Americans a bad rep for obnoxious ignorance and pigheadedness.
A related story. This one time I was in a Starbucks in my city, and this American was complaining loudly when the tellers refused to accept his American Dollars.
"So what am I supposed to do with it!?" He exclaimed.
"Sir, there's a bank down the street that can change your money." The teller replied with admirable patience.
Now are all Americans like that? Of course not, just this idiot who apparently didn't realize that he was in a foreign country which wouldn't necessarily accept his currency! Unfortunately he left a bad impression. |
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talltony4
Joined: 09 Aug 2004
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| Posted: Mon Jul 27, 2009 9:51 pm Post subject: |
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Yeah, I saw those guys on the hill. I couldnt' quite work out what they were doing, so I walked past quickly.
I guess one of us should have gone up and said something.
You are right. Thousands of Koreans there, well behaved, not drunk, not obnoxious, just an enthusiastic and all-round great audience. It's not a good look when a bunch of caucasians stands out like that. |
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Ilsanman
Joined: 15 Aug 2003
Location: Bucheon, Korea
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| Posted: Mon Jul 27, 2009 10:05 pm Post subject: |
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Korean men for sure don't have a leg to stand on if they are berating them for being drunk and unruly.
But then, that's an unfair generalization, right?
It's unfair to me as well. I rarely drink and I am never unruly in a public place. |
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PatrickGHBusan
Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Location: Busan (1997-2008) Canada 2008 -
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| Posted: Tue Jul 28, 2009 7:22 am Post subject: |
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| Is your wife a "guest" in Canada? Are your children? Are those black kids by the fountain? |
If she were there to work only (i.e. on a work visa) she would be a guest worker....
However she immigrated there...so she is a resident (as in a permanent resident/landed immigrant).
This is the legal aspect.
Now the living aspect: she is considered as an outsider in many places in Canada. She has had to deal with racism and discrimination here much like I had to deal with it in Korea. The way it happens is different, its more subtle vs the more overt way it is in Korea.
She has hit the discrimination wall in many places too. Then again thats to be expected as an immigrant in any place. It just takes different forms.
The black kids by the fountain sure were not treated the same as the white skateboarders by the cops....but hey I see where you are going with your response picasso so let me save us some time: racism does not exist in North America. Its all a great multi-cultural paradise where everyone is treated the same... 
Oh and picasso...you are indeed a guest in Korea. You are a guest worker on a temporaty visa sponsored by a local employer. But the guest issue was meant in another way by the OP. It was meant as a guest in the sense that you are a foreigner here and in many ways need to adapt to the local culture and respect the local customs (when that is reasonable to do). By the way..someone IS putting a roof over your head and food on your table: your employer who provides you with rent-free accomodations or with a housing allowance and a salary that buys said food.... 
Snake doctor is a different story..he has a RESIDENT visa. That means different standing under the law. I too was on a F5 when in Korea. Thats a legal difference. I too was a resident but when out and about I still considered what I did in public against the local rules and norms. You do in essence represent a large community of foreign teachers even if you do not like that. In that sense..a minimum of decorum goes a long way.
Finally....even after 11 years, the average Korean who did not know me probably saw me and thought: another wayguk guest worker. but you kn ow what? Who gives a rats hairy butt if thats what he thinks? what difference does it make what a stranger thinks? What mattered when I lived in Korea was what my neighbors, friends, co-workers and other Koreans I interacted with thought. But to the average Korean I was a guest...such is life. |
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grunden
Joined: 18 Apr 2009
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| Posted: Tue Jul 28, 2009 7:27 am Post subject: |
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| funny, could you imagine a bunch ok kguys doing that at a concert in any state. |
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I'm no Picasso
Joined: 28 Oct 2008
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| Posted: Tue Jul 28, 2009 3:52 pm Post subject: |
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| PatrickGHBusan wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Is your wife a "guest" in Canada? Are your children? Are those black kids by the fountain? |
If she were there to work only (i.e. on a work visa) she would be a guest worker....
However she immigrated there...so she is a resident (as in a permanent resident/landed immigrant).
This is the legal aspect.
Now the living aspect: she is considered as an outsider in many places in Canada. She has had to deal with racism and discrimination here much like I had to deal with it in Korea. The way it happens is different, its more subtle vs the more overt way it is in Korea.
She has hit the discrimination wall in many places too. Then again thats to be expected as an immigrant in any place. It just takes different forms.
The black kids by the fountain sure were not treated the same as the white skateboarders by the cops....but hey I see where you are going with your response picasso so let me save us some time: racism does not exist in North America. Its all a great multi-cultural paradise where everyone is treated the same...
Oh and picasso...you are indeed a guest in Korea. You are a guest worker on a temporaty visa sponsored by a local employer. But the guest issue was meant in another way by the OP. It was meant as a guest in the sense that you are a foreigner here and in many ways need to adapt to the local culture and respect the local customs (when that is reasonable to do). By the way..someone IS putting a roof over your head and food on your table: your employer who provides you with rent-free accomodations or with a housing allowance and a salary that buys said food....
Snake doctor is a different story..he has a RESIDENT visa. That means different standing under the law. I too was on a F5 when in Korea. Thats a legal difference. I too was a resident but when out and about I still considered what I did in public against the local rules and norms. You do in essence represent a large community of foreign teachers even if you do not like that. In that sense..a minimum of decorum goes a long way.
Finally....even after 11 years, the average Korean who did not know me probably saw me and thought: another wayguk guest worker. but you kn ow what? Who gives a rats hairy butt if thats what he thinks? what difference does it make what a stranger thinks? What mattered when I lived in Korea was what my neighbors, friends, co-workers and other Koreans I interacted with thought. But to the average Korean I was a guest...such is life. |
No. You don't know where I was going with that, at all. You seem to justify a certain set of expectations and a certain way of relating to and treating foreigners in Korea, which you then turn around and criticize back in North America. Yes, your wife faces discrimination and racism -- I have no doubt about that. I taught (and was very close with many) Korean university students in New York City -- one of the most culturally and racially diverse cities in the world -- and they still faced DAILY issues with racism and discrimination. You seem to think that in Korea, however, we are guests and must tolerate being held to a different standard and viewed under a microscope, not free to live our lives as the locals are, because we are not from this country. Whereas when it comes to your wife, it's discrimination.
I'm not talking about the visa thing here and neither were you. You were talking about being a guest within the culture. Again, I repeat, is your wife a guest within Canadian culture? Should she be (or rather, do you appreciate it when she is) viewed as an outsider and held to a different standard?
As for my employer putting a roof over my head and food in my stomach, I'll stop showing up to work and we'll see how long my employer continues to be so gracious. That argument is hogwash. I work for my apartment, I work for my food. Again, I repeat -- no one is doing me any favors.
Anyway, are you saying being male, drunk and loud in public goes against Korea's social norms? |
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Teelo
Joined: 09 Oct 2008
Location: Wellington, NZ
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| Posted: Tue Jul 28, 2009 5:29 pm Post subject: |
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| Koreans come here to New Zealand and complain about us being racist. |
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peter07
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Gwangmyeong
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| Posted: Tue Jul 28, 2009 5:39 pm Post subject: |
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| mimis wrote: |
Ah... I was thinking about Germans... 
I'm from Hiddink land (NL) and we get a lot of German tourists... They're not always on their best behaviour
I don't think of people with different skin colour as foreigners, I know many people from different backgrounds who were born in NL and are in many aspects more Dutch than I am. No judgement there.
But it just feels a little different here. In the west we've dealt with immigration for centuries, but Asia is so closed... I don't think Koreans see us as their own. Just have to be a little more careful imo. |
There are Vulcans on earth, and they are called Germans. |
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kinerry
Joined: 01 Jun 2009
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| Posted: Tue Jul 28, 2009 5:56 pm Post subject: |
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| mimis wrote: |
Sure, but in the end...we are guests.
Can you imagine a group of, say, Arabs doing the same thing in your home country? Would you think- oh well, it's a rock festival? I think it would piss a lot of people of. Let's face it...Westerners are the Arabs of Korea
Anyway, if I would go to a festival back home and see a bunch of foreigners misbehave, I'd probably also think "losers, go home". That's just the way we people are  |
I would more likely call homeland security and get them sent to club gitmo |
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Ukon
Joined: 29 Jan 2008
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| Posted: Tue Jul 28, 2009 6:14 pm Post subject: |
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| Soldiers have similar reputations across the world...I was curious about why koreans disliked the troops being there and asked some of my friends back home who lived next to bases...they said the exact same negative things. |
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ewok
Joined: 27 May 2007
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| Posted: Tue Jul 28, 2009 7:48 pm Post subject: |
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I always tell Koreans this: Even in America, people hate having military bases nearby, because soldiers tend to behave horrible when they are let out of the base for R&R.
But nothing will stop Koreans from even realizing that they stereotype all foreigners. |
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ekul
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
Location: [Mod Edit]
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| Posted: Tue Jul 28, 2009 8:07 pm Post subject: |
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I played darts with those guys earlier in the day and they were pretty nice, we even sat with them for a bit before Oasis. In fact the guy throwing the ball around from the top was Korean-American and the other guy had been in Korea for two weeks and was actually pretty nervous about the whole thing but peer pressure makes people do silly things.
Sure you can judge those guys just because they were being a bit stupid on the last day of a three day festival by throwing a (soft nerf) American football around (in between when the bands were playing). Or just chill out and stop getting offended by everything other westerners do. |
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OnTheOtherSide
Joined: 29 Feb 2008
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| Posted: Tue Jul 28, 2009 9:26 pm Post subject: |
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Overall, US military guys are loud stupid goons. Yeah, I know, we're supposed the respect the military for their sacrifices and blah, blah, blah. But the fact is, most of these guys are bonehead, crude, rowdy idiots. Especially the Marines and Army. Most of those guys represent the perfect example of an idiot who I would avoid being around.
With them making up the majority of foreigners in Korea, that in itself, could be the major reason why Koreans have disdain for us. I would hate westerners too, if most of the ones I met were military. |
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I'm no Picasso
Joined: 28 Oct 2008
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| Posted: Tue Jul 28, 2009 9:43 pm Post subject: |
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| OnTheOtherSide wrote: |
Overall, US military guys are loud stupid goons. Yeah, I know, we're supposed the respect the military for their sacrifices and blah, blah, blah. But the fact is, most of these guys are bonehead, crude, rowdy idiots. Especially the Marines and Army. Most of those guys represent the perfect example of an idiot who I would avoid being around.
With them making up the majority of foreigners in Korea, that in itself, could be the major reason why Koreans have disdain for us. I would hate westerners too, if most of the ones I met were military. |
While I'm not going to argue that every last American soldier in SK is a perfect gentleman, I will say that guys in the military here are, on the whole, more likely to have a family, taking a load of them out of the "hooligan" category almost automatically. Also, the military here have curfews and relatively strict(er) expectations for their behavior, as part of their job. No one is babysitting the English teachers -- we are free to do pretty much as we please, so long as we don't break the law. And from my perspective, that shows.
Every single soldier I've met since I've been here had either a girlfriend or a wife close by his side and was conducting himself in a completely sedate, dignified manner, while it's been English teachers who have been hooting and hollering at women on the street.
Let's just say it's probably best not to generalize in one direction or the other, and leave it at that. |
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OnTheOtherSide
Joined: 29 Feb 2008
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| Posted: Tue Jul 28, 2009 9:58 pm Post subject: |
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| I'm no Picasso wrote: |
| OnTheOtherSide wrote: |
Overall, US military guys are loud stupid goons. Yeah, I know, we're supposed the respect the military for their sacrifices and blah, blah, blah. But the fact is, most of these guys are bonehead, crude, rowdy idiots. Especially the Marines and Army. Most of those guys represent the perfect example of an idiot who I would avoid being around.
With them making up the majority of foreigners in Korea, that in itself, could be the major reason why Koreans have disdain for us. I would hate westerners too, if most of the ones I met were military. |
While I'm not going to argue that every last American soldier in SK is a perfect gentleman, I will say that guys in the military here are, on the whole, more likely to have a family, taking a load of them out of the "hooligan" category almost automatically. Also, the military here have curfews and relatively strict(er) expectations for their behavior, as part of their job. No one is babysitting the English teachers -- we are free to do pretty much as we please, so long as we don't break the law. And from my perspective, that shows.
Every single soldier I've met since I've been here had either a girlfriend or a wife close by his side and was conducting himself in a completely sedate, dignified manner, while it's been English teachers who have been hooting and hollering at women on the street.
Let's just say it's probably best not to generalize in one direction or the other, and leave it at that. |
I had the exact opposite experience in Korea.
Lots of the ESL teachers were scumbags without a doubt. But in a more mellow, self-destructive sort of way. But the military guys were loud, intrusive, violent, and always acted like they had something to prove. Just like the OP's story, they would always intrude on strangers space. Instead of just chilling out, it always had to be intense and dramatic.
I grew up near an Army base. Right now i'm living near two big Marine bases in the US. And I have met a lot of cool, smart, mature military guys. But the fact is, a very large percentage of them are idiots. I would say maybe around half.
All the locals around here know it. It's no secret. Most military guys come from that segment of American society that is macho, loud, violent, thuggish and crude. And this is a huge segment of American society.
I've had this talk many, many times before with people. And people often take offense, but I think that deep down they know there's truth to it. |
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