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bacasper
Joined: 26 Mar 2007
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 Posted: Sat Aug 01, 2009 12:37 am Post subject: Bailouts could cost U.S. $23 trillion |
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This is according to SIGTARP, not some "conspiracy theory" website.
To give you an idea of how much money one trillion dollars is, it is $1,000 per minute since the birth of Christ, and this is 24 times that!  
Bailouts could cost U.S. $23 trillion
A series of bailouts, bank rescues and other economic lifelines could end up costing the federal government as much as $23 trillion, the U.S. government�s watchdog over the effort says � a staggering amount that is nearly double the nation�s entire economic output for a year.
If the feds end up spending that amount, it could be more than the federal government has spent on any single effort in American history.
For the government to be on the hook for the total amount, worst-case scenarios would have to come to pass in a variety of federal programs, which is unlikely, says Neil Barofsky, the special inspector general for the government�s financial bailout programs, in testimony prepared for delivery to the House oversight committee Tuesday.
The Treasury Department says less than $2 trillion has been spent so far.
Still, the enormity of the IG�s projection underscores the size of the economic disaster that hit the nation over the past year and the unprecedented sums mobilized by the federal government under Presidents George W. Bush and Barack Obama to confront it.
In fact, $23 trillion is more than the total cost of all the wars the United States has ever fought, put together. World War II, for example, cost $4.1 trillion in 2008 dollars, according to the Congressional Research Service.
Even the Moon landings and the New Deal didn�t come close to $23 trillion: the Moon shot in 1969 cost an estimated $237 billion in current dollars, and the entire Depression-era Roosevelt relief program came in at $500 billion, according to Jim Bianco of Bianco Research.
The annual gross domestic product of the United States is just over $14 trillion.
Treasury spokesman Andrew Williams downplayed the total amount could ever reach Barofsky�s number.
�The $23.7 trillion estimate generally includes programs at the hypothetical maximum size envisioned when they were established,� Williams said. �It was never likely that all these programs would be �maxed out� at the same time.�
Still, the eye-popping price tag provoked an immediate reaction on Capitol Hill. �The potential financial commitment the American taxpayers could be responsible for is of a size and scope that isn�t even imaginable,� said Rep. Darrell Issa (R-Calif.), the ranking member of the House Oversight Committee. �If you spent a million dollars a day going back to the birth of Christ, that wouldn�t even come close to just one trillion dollars � $23.7 trillion is a staggering figure.�
Congressional Democrats say they will call for Treasury to meet transparency requirements suggested by the inspector general, said a spokeswoman for the Oversight committee. �The American people need to know what�s going on with their money,� said committee spokeswoman Jenny Rosenberg. |
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Dude Ranch
Joined: 04 Nov 2008
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| Posted: Sat Aug 01, 2009 3:23 am Post subject: |
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| The founding fathers would be ashamed if they could see what is happening today |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Sat Aug 01, 2009 6:49 am Post subject: |
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I have to say, all these people trying to articulate just how big certain numbers are with weird examples related to things like "Minutes since the birth of Christ," or "Stacking pennies on top of each other," or so forth are getting really annoying. Comparing it to the yearly economic output of the United States has some merit, but that's all. Anything else is just a pointless scare tactic.
That said, the American people are getting exactly what they deserve on this account. A citizen-elected government -- especially in the modern era -- comes with substantial responsibilities, including the responsibility to remain informed, the responsibility to closely watch the actions of your representatives, and the responsibility to take appropriate action when your elected representative misbehaves; tolerance for misconduct should essentially be zero, and total transparency should be demanded. The American people have shirked those responsibilities, and the results are obvious. They let their representatives get away with murder. |
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pkang0202
Joined: 09 Mar 2007
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| Posted: Sat Aug 01, 2009 7:14 am Post subject: |
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| Fox wrote: |
I have to say, all these people trying to articulate just how big certain numbers are with weird examples related to things like "Minutes since the birth of Christ," or "Stacking pennies on top of each other," or so forth are getting really annoying. Comparing it to the yearly economic output of the United States has some merit, but that's all. Anything else is just a pointless scare tactic.
That said, the American people are getting exactly what they deserve on this account. A citizen-elected government -- especially in the modern era -- comes with substantial responsibilities, including the responsibility to remain informed, the responsibility to closely watch the actions of your representatives, and the responsibility to take appropriate action when your elected representative misbehaves; tolerance for misconduct should essentially be zero, and total transparency should be demanded. The American people have shirked those responsibilities, and the results are obvious. They let their representatives get away with murder. |
That's pretty harsh. The American people deserve it? So, by your reasoning Jews deserved to get gassed by the Nazi's because they allowed Hitler to come to power. |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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| Posted: Sat Aug 01, 2009 7:27 am Post subject: |
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| pkang0202 wrote: |
| Fox wrote: |
I have to say, all these people trying to articulate just how big certain numbers are with weird examples related to things like "Minutes since the birth of Christ," or "Stacking pennies on top of each other," or so forth are getting really annoying. Comparing it to the yearly economic output of the United States has some merit, but that's all. Anything else is just a pointless scare tactic.
That said, the American people are getting exactly what they deserve on this account. A citizen-elected government -- especially in the modern era -- comes with substantial responsibilities, including the responsibility to remain informed, the responsibility to closely watch the actions of your representatives, and the responsibility to take appropriate action when your elected representative misbehaves; tolerance for misconduct should essentially be zero, and total transparency should be demanded. The American people have shirked those responsibilities, and the results are obvious. They let their representatives get away with murder. |
That's pretty harsh. The American people deserve it? So, by your reasoning Jews deserved to get gassed by the Nazi's because they allowed Hitler to come to power. |
Camon. Far too early in this thread to bring up nazi's. You gotta wait until at least the 4th page before going there. |
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visitorq
Joined: 11 Jan 2008
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| Posted: Sat Aug 01, 2009 7:27 am Post subject: |
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| Fox wrote: |
I have to say, all these people trying to articulate just how big certain numbers are with weird examples related to things like "Minutes since the birth of Christ," or "Stacking pennies on top of each other," or so forth are getting really annoying. Comparing it to the yearly economic output of the United States has some merit, but that's all. Anything else is just a pointless scare tactic.
That said, the American people are getting exactly what they deserve on this account. A citizen-elected government -- especially in the modern era -- comes with substantial responsibilities, including the responsibility to remain informed, the responsibility to closely watch the actions of your representatives, and the responsibility to take appropriate action when your elected representative misbehaves; tolerance for misconduct should essentially be zero, and total transparency should be demanded. The American people have shirked those responsibilities, and the results are obvious. They let their representatives get away with murder. |
If you're actually naive enough to believe the US is a democracy, then perhaps you should just keep your mouth shut... The US is ruled by bankers and the cronies they appoint to government and policy is dictated by think tanks funded by the likes of the Rockefellers. The American people have no say in what goes on, half of it is blatantly against the constitution but happens in plain view.
The American people are good, they're just down and out at the moment, their backs getting urinated on by the powers that be. It won't last though, the breaking point is near. |
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visitorq
Joined: 11 Jan 2008
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| Posted: Sat Aug 01, 2009 7:29 am Post subject: |
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| Dude Ranch wrote: |
| The founding fathers would be ashamed if they could see what is happening today |
Understatement of the year. |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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| Posted: Sat Aug 01, 2009 7:29 am Post subject: |
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| visitorq wrote: |
| Fox wrote: |
I have to say, all these people trying to articulate just how big certain numbers are with weird examples related to things like "Minutes since the birth of Christ," or "Stacking pennies on top of each other," or so forth are getting really annoying. Comparing it to the yearly economic output of the United States has some merit, but that's all. Anything else is just a pointless scare tactic.
That said, the American people are getting exactly what they deserve on this account. A citizen-elected government -- especially in the modern era -- comes with substantial responsibilities, including the responsibility to remain informed, the responsibility to closely watch the actions of your representatives, and the responsibility to take appropriate action when your elected representative misbehaves; tolerance for misconduct should essentially be zero, and total transparency should be demanded. The American people have shirked those responsibilities, and the results are obvious. They let their representatives get away with murder. |
If you're actually naive enough to believe the US is a democracy, then perhaps you should just keep your mouth shut... The US is ruled by bankers and the cronies they appoint to government and policy is dictated by think tanks funded by the likes of the Rockefellers. The American people have no say in what goes on, half of it is blatantly against the constitution but happens in plain view.
The American people are good, they're just down and out at the moment, their backs getting urinated on by the powers that be. It won't last though, the breaking point is near. |
http://www.reuters.com/article/newsOne/idUSTRE56U3OV20090731 |
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Hater Depot
Joined: 29 Mar 2005
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| Posted: Sat Aug 01, 2009 7:44 am Post subject: |
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| The math behind the $23 trillion number is bogus. That is twice the size of the entire US economy. It is thus impossible for the bailouts to cost anything close to that figure. |
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visitorq
Joined: 11 Jan 2008
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| Posted: Sat Aug 01, 2009 8:11 am Post subject: |
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| Hater Depot wrote: |
| The math behind the $23 trillion number is bogus. That is twice the size of the entire US economy. It is thus impossible for the bailouts to cost anything close to that figure. |
Bailout is just the term they use; what it really is, is outright theft. The Fed creates double the GDP worth of bogus, fraudulent money for the major banks (for which the Fed is really just a front) at the same time that they engineer the very collapse of the overall economy (happening right now), mainly by contracting the money supply, which allows them to use the bogus money they created out of thin air (first lent to the government at interest to be paid off by our taxes, then handed over to banks as a blank check, no questions asked, calling it a 'bailout') to buy up all the real assets in the economy at rock bottom prices.
In other words, they've literally bankrupted us and the economy forever, made us pick up the tab for them buying up our assets from us (at the resulting rock bottom prices they've created, even though banks produce nothing of real value), and then we have to pay them interest on the money they're using to do it! Nobody else has the power to create fake, bullsh-t money backed by legal tender laws as they do, so they basically own the rest of us. Little more than slaves.
Feel pissed off yet? |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Sat Aug 01, 2009 1:48 pm Post subject: |
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| pkang0202 wrote: |
That's pretty harsh. The American people deserve it? So, by your reasoning Jews deserved to get gassed by the Nazi's because they allowed Hitler to come to power. |
As a person of Jewish descent myself, whose ancestors had to flee Europe, I would definitely say the people of Germany collectively deserve the blame for their political choices and all that followed from those choices. Yes, that ultimately does include some Jews.
As I said, there are responsibilities that come with a citizen-elected government. The people of Germany failed to live up to those responsibilities, and as you pointed out, the results were horrific.
It's time to stop pretending a tiny majority of people can screw up a society without the majority enabling them to do it.
Last edited by Fox on Sat Aug 01, 2009 2:05 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Sat Aug 01, 2009 2:00 pm Post subject: |
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| visitorq wrote: |
| Fox wrote: |
I have to say, all these people trying to articulate just how big certain numbers are with weird examples related to things like "Minutes since the birth of Christ," or "Stacking pennies on top of each other," or so forth are getting really annoying. Comparing it to the yearly economic output of the United States has some merit, but that's all. Anything else is just a pointless scare tactic.
That said, the American people are getting exactly what they deserve on this account. A citizen-elected government -- especially in the modern era -- comes with substantial responsibilities, including the responsibility to remain informed, the responsibility to closely watch the actions of your representatives, and the responsibility to take appropriate action when your elected representative misbehaves; tolerance for misconduct should essentially be zero, and total transparency should be demanded. The American people have shirked those responsibilities, and the results are obvious. They let their representatives get away with murder. |
If you're actually naive enough to believe the US is a democracy, then perhaps you should just keep your mouth shut... |
Addressing someone on an internet forum to tell them they should keep their mouth shut is beyond stupid. If you don't want to see what I have to say, no one is forcing you to.
| visitorq wrote: |
| The US is ruled by bankers and the cronies they appoint to government and policy is dictated by think tanks funded by the likes of the Rockefellers. The American people have no say in what goes on, half of it is blatantly against the constitution but happens in plain view. |
Anything those individuals get away with, the American people collectively allow them to get away with. Indifferent, uninformed individuals who can hardly be bothered to vote keep the corrupt in power and ensure there are few meaningful checks upon them.
In a society of informed, involved individuals, the scenario you describe wouldn't occur.
| visitorq wrote: |
| The American people are good, they're just down and out at the moment, their backs getting urinated on by the powers that be. It won't last though, the breaking point is near. |
If the American people are getting "urinated on by the powers that be," but that will end soon, it could have ended sooner. Why didn't it end sooner? Because the American people didn't stand up and end it sooner.
If you want to rage at the individuals who take advantage of the lazy indifference of our citizen base, feel free. Given that as long as said citizen base remains lazy and indifference someone will take advantage of them, though, I would prefer to address the real source of the problem.
| visitorq wrote: |
| Feel pissed off yet? |
Yes, I do. I feel pissed off at citizen base that not only allowed this to happen, but made it almost an inevitability. Even if the specific people who are taking advantage of things right now didn't exist, someone would have come along, because a society of lazy, uninformed people is emminently vulnerable to such things. When our citizens are willing to work to ensure the quality of their government, they will have a quality government. So long as the majority is indifferent, the results will be as they have been.
Blame all America's problems on a tiny group of people if you like. Even if they were to vanish off the face of the Earth tomorrow, more like them would replace them, until the average citizen stops enabling it. |
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Hater Depot
Joined: 29 Mar 2005
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| Posted: Sat Aug 01, 2009 6:50 pm Post subject: |
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| visitorq wrote: |
| Hater Depot wrote: |
| The math behind the $23 trillion number is bogus. That is twice the size of the entire US economy. It is thus impossible for the bailouts to cost anything close to that figure. |
Bailout is just the term they use; what it really is, is outright theft. The Fed creates double the GDP worth of bogus, fraudulent money for the major banks (for which the Fed is really just a front) at the same time that they engineer the very collapse of the overall economy (happening right now), mainly by contracting the money supply, which allows them to use the bogus money they created out of thin air (first lent to the government at interest to be paid off by our taxes, then handed over to banks as a blank check, no questions asked, calling it a 'bailout') to buy up all the real assets in the economy at rock bottom prices.
In other words, they've literally bankrupted us and the economy forever, made us pick up the tab for them buying up our assets from us (at the resulting rock bottom prices they've created, even though banks produce nothing of real value), and then we have to pay them interest on the money they're using to do it! Nobody else has the power to create fake, bullsh-t money backed by legal tender laws as they do, so they basically own the rest of us. Little more than slaves.
Feel pissed off yet? |
By your conspiracy theory? No. |
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RJjr
Joined: 17 Aug 2006
Location: Turning on a Lamp
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| Posted: Sat Aug 01, 2009 7:16 pm Post subject: |
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| I don't think Americans are too lazy to take a stand. I think Americans are just too scared and intimidated by the Patriot Act and being put on watchlists and facing IRS audits every year if they voice their opinions loudly. |
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bacasper
Joined: 26 Mar 2007
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| Posted: Sun Aug 02, 2009 12:34 am Post subject: |
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While I agree with what
| Fox wrote: |
| I have to say, all these people trying to articulate just how big certain numbers are with weird examples related to things like "Minutes since the birth of Christ," or "Stacking pennies on top of each other," or so forth are getting really annoying. Comparing it to the yearly economic output of the United States has some merit, but that's all. Anything else is just a pointless scare tactic. |
I must agree with visitorq that this
| Quote: |
| That said, the American people are getting exactly what they deserve on this account. A citizen-elected government -- especially in the modern era -- comes with substantial responsibilities, including the responsibility to remain informed, the responsibility to closely watch the actions of your representatives, and the responsibility to take appropriate action when your elected representative misbehaves; tolerance for misconduct should essentially be zero, and total transparency should be demanded. The American people have shirked those responsibilities, and the results are obvious. They let their representatives get away with murder. |
is quite naive. It is not a level playing field out there. If it were I might agree with you.
OTOH, if you mean that Americans are not living up to the need, as per Thomas Jefferson, for revolution every 20 years or so, then yes, it is the citizens' collective fault for being a couple of centuries late already.
| Hater Depot wrote: |
| The math behind the $23 trillion number is bogus. That is twice the size of the entire US economy. It is thus impossible for the bailouts to cost anything close to that figure. |
That number, actually $23.7 trillion, is from Neil Barofsky. Are you calling him, the SIGTARP himself, a liar?
While in a worst-case scenario this is how much the American taxpayer stands to lose, and it is unlikely all those will play out, I do believe it is an accurate calculation of the total exposure. |
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