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pkang0202
Joined: 09 Mar 2007
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 Posted: Wed Aug 05, 2009 12:04 am Post subject: |
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| The Great Wall of Whiner wrote: |
I'm not sure what history books or newspapers you read, but where I come from, North Korea tested it's first nuclear weapon when G.W. Bush was Prez. |
Hmm... I seem to remember the NK's booting out the Nuclear Advisors and starting their nuclear weaponization program during the Clinton administration. Remember Hans Blix? He pretty much said North Korea was reprocessing nuclear material to make a bomb. |
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stevieg4ever
Joined: 11 Feb 2006
Location: London, England
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| Posted: Wed Aug 05, 2009 1:44 am Post subject: |
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Why are they being pardoned and released?? As CC asked did they actually cross the boarder in the first place, but then surely they must of in order to be detained in the first place.
If they have broken the state laws then they should do the time accordingly. KJI will probably use this to demonstrate to his people how he has once again reigned victorious over the the US making them beg on their hands and knees. And has gained several millions of tonnes in aid in the process.
Will he now be off to Iran to do the same over there I wonder??? The fact is you enter these countries at your own risk, now what kind of precedent have the US set for themselves now??
Another thing that comes to mind is why haven't other detainees across the globe merited a visit of such magnitude in order to secure their own releases?? Perhaps some of their loved ones will have something to say about that. |
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benji1422
Joined: 02 Jun 2009
Location: Los Angeles & Seoul
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| Posted: Wed Aug 05, 2009 3:45 am Post subject: |
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| RJjr wrote: |
| Bill Clinton is a stud. Leave it to him to fly out alone and come back with a lady on each side of him. It's good to finally read some good news for once. Bill is the man! He makes me proud to be an American! |
I think Bill just earned a Get Out of Jail Free card for his next 10 extra marital affairs. In any event, the guy deserves a bl*wj*b. |
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The Great Wall of Whiner
Joined: 24 Jan 2003
Location: Middle Land
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| Posted: Wed Aug 05, 2009 4:15 am Post subject: |
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| pkang0202 wrote: |
| The Great Wall of Whiner wrote: |
I'm not sure what history books or newspapers you read, but where I come from, North Korea tested it's first nuclear weapon when G.W. Bush was Prez. |
Hmm... I seem to remember the NK's booting out the Nuclear Advisors and starting their nuclear weaponization program during the Clinton administration. Remember Hans Blix? He pretty much said North Korea was reprocessing nuclear material to make a bomb. |
And they were sanctioned accordingly by the international community. Meanwhile, when they first detonated their first atomic weapon, what did Bushie-poo do?
Twiddle his thumbs? His response was weaker than Clinton's response so... up to you if you want to play politics. All Bush did was call North Korea part of an axis of evil.
Wow, that sure told them. |
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Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994
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| Posted: Wed Aug 05, 2009 4:36 am Post subject: |
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Releasing two girls held by North Korea is a loss for the U.S.? It is an embarrassment to get them home?
Are you some sort of traitor? |
Good question. Maybe he should explain how he feels about secession a la Todd Palin and Rick Perry.
kiko: Yeah, Bolton is the ex-only-by-recess-appointment-ambassador-to-the-UN-and-let's-bomb-Iran guy. Someone else already posted the link.
| Quote: |
Why are they being pardoned and released?? As CC asked did they actually cross the boarder in the first place, but then surely they must of in order to be detained in the first place.
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No, it isn't clear yet where they were when they were snatched. The three possibilities were a) they were in China and the Nork border guards slipped across the border and grabbed them; b) they went to one of the islands in the middle of the river to get better pictures and were nabbed; c) they deliberately went into North Korea. At this point, all we have is the Nork claim that 'c' is what went down. I realize it's a 'he said, she said' situation, but I'm waiting for the women's account. I'll believe it before I do the Norks, on general principles.
In the closing days of the Clinton Administration there was the chance that the prez would go to NK to sign a nuke deal. In the end, he didn't go. The Norks have been waiting 9 years for a chance to pull this visit off. We don't know if anything else was promised. I suspect food aid was involved in the deal. Regardless, the Norks are at least as much interested in face as South Koreans. It may well be that all Clinton had to do was show up in Pyongyang to satisfy little Kim. The pictures of the two together will go a long way in bolstering KJI's remaining days in power, and from the reports of economic chaos coming out of NK, anything will help.
PS: My little bird tells me that South Koreans are not all that thrilled. From that perspective, there is a fear that the release of the women presages an agreement by the US to meet the Norks one-on-one, which would be dangerous for the South. |
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Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994
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| Posted: Wed Aug 05, 2009 5:49 am Post subject: |
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Rufus W wrote:
So who's gonna be the first Conservative poster to say isolationism is better than engagement?
I wondered who the first lefty poster (I refuse to use the word liberal) would be to announce that the release of two women from a gulag - by a former President of the world's quintessentially capitalist nation - was some kind of victory for leftism.
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Here's the second right-winger response: (You may want to put on your raincoat before reading this. The venom being spewed is toxic.)
"After almost a decade spent skulking around with billionaires, celebrities, and other less-than-savory characters, Bill Clinton has returned to the world of high-stakes diplomacy...During a surprise visit to North Korea, the former president successfully negotiated the release of Laura Ling and Euna Lee...It is hardly surprising that the Obama White House has been far less inclined to negotiate with North Korea than the allegedly [sic] trigger-happy Bush White House...The sheer impossibility of the task at hand must be gratifying to Bill Clinton, who is best known for his almost pathological need for attention."
http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-and-stories/2009-08-05/bubbas-bogus-diplomacy/?cid=hp:blogunit1 |
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Hater Depot
Joined: 29 Mar 2005
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| Posted: Wed Aug 05, 2009 6:50 am Post subject: |
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| pkang0202 wrote: |
Billy boy would not have gone to NK if the release of those girls wasn't already guaranteed. Of course NK loves Bill Clinton. If was on HIS watch that they developed nukes.
hmm... Why wouldn't NK want W. Bush to go there? Probably because HE was a big roadblock to their evil plans. |
Actually, I bet they would love to have Bush come, for the same reasons they wanted Clinton to do so. Besides the propaganda value, it's been clear for quite a while that NK really wants direct talks with the US. I'm sure they see a visit by a former US president as a step on that road.
Coincidentally, W. Bush was in SK at the same time, giving a speech in Andong. |
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stevieg4ever
Joined: 11 Feb 2006
Location: London, England
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| Posted: Thu Aug 06, 2009 1:17 am Post subject: |
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But are they guilty of crossing the boarder illegally or not??
The word 'pardon' has been used seems to imply that they were guilty.
This is from Wikipedia:
'...Reports said that the journalists were both warned several times by the North Korean military about crossing the border.'
Laura Ling's sister had this to say about her detained sister:
"She was very deliberate and clear in her message, which was, look, you just have to know that we did violate North Korean law. We broke the law, we are sorry, and we need help. We need our government's help to try and get amnesty because that really is our only hope."
They were guilty and should never have walked. Disgraceful! |
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RJjr
Joined: 17 Aug 2006
Location: Turning on a Lamp
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| Posted: Thu Aug 06, 2009 1:32 am Post subject: |
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| stevieg4ever wrote: |
| Everyone in the media seems to be avoiding this question yet romanticising the whole thing nevertheless. If they did the crime they should definitely do the time. |
You make a good point, but I'm glad they're released. For me, the sad part is how North Korea outclassed us in how it treats its foreign prisoners. They even laughed when they were told that we were worried about how our two ladies were being treated and replied, "We are not Guantanamo." If it turns out that they didn't even rape our two women, then their treatment of female prisoners is much better than what we do. |
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ubermenzch
Joined: 09 Jun 2008
Location: bundang, south korea
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| Posted: Thu Aug 06, 2009 2:09 am Post subject: |
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| stevieg4ever wrote: |
They were guilty and should never have walked. Disgraceful! |
So your view is that it would have been right and just for the two women to have been left to serve their 12 years in a forced labour camp? That's pretty harsh. I can only assume you aren't being serious. |
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Captain Corea
Joined: 28 Feb 2005
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Thu Aug 06, 2009 3:50 am Post subject: |
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| stevieg4ever wrote: |
| "She was very deliberate and clear in her message, which was, look, you just have to know that we did violate North Korean law. We broke the law, we are sorry, and we need help. We need our government's help to try and get amnesty because that really is our only hope." |
yeah, but what law did they violate?
If I post up a photoshopped picture of KJI BJing Clinton, I'm sure I'm breaking some DPRK law. They have laws for all sorts of things.
The question is though, idthey specifically enter the DPRK illegally? |
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Kikomom
Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Location: them thar hills--Penna, USA--Zippy is my kid, the teacher in ROK. You can call me Kiko
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| Posted: Thu Aug 06, 2009 5:30 am Post subject: |
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| Hater Depot wrote: |
| Coincidentally, W. Bush was in SK at the same time, giving a speech in Andong. |
Noticed that didya? Looks like you and I are the only ones who did.
http://forums.eslcafe.com/korea/viewtopic.php?t=162384
If having Clinton come to pick up the pardoned journalists was a coup for KJI, imagine what a coup getting Bush to talk in Jeju was for LMB? Yet so little is being said?
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| Lee flew to the southern resort island of Jeju Saturday afternoon to meet Bush, who had arrived there a few hours earlier to speak at an economic forum organized by the Federation of Korean Industries, the largest South Korean lobby group. |
Why's that? |
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RufusW
Joined: 14 Jun 2008
Location: Busan
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| Posted: Thu Aug 06, 2009 8:51 am Post subject: |
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| Getting Bush to talk isn't a coup anywhere. |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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| Posted: Thu Aug 06, 2009 8:58 am Post subject: |
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Because Bush supports the FTA. |
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Kikomom
Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Location: them thar hills--Penna, USA--Zippy is my kid, the teacher in ROK. You can call me Kiko
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