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teachergirltoo
Joined: 28 Oct 2006
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 Posted: Thu Aug 06, 2009 7:03 pm Post subject: |
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| roskim wrote: |
I don't mean to labor the point or suggest that any individual is not free to believe as he/she sees fit - but - if the church has been telling its followers one thing in some countries and then something different in another - Bulgaria - that would suggest some form of non-transparency at best and dishonesty at worst - so to go to their website may not be the place to get a clear and honest answer.
Same for the previously stated issue of Malawi and Mexico - apparently not all JW's were aware of this inconsistency - from what I've read.
Also - from what I have seen in JW magazines they have no difficulty with calling the shots as they see them in relation to other religions - so why should it be a problem for anyone else to discuss what they see as anomalies within the JW church? |
I have good friends that are Bulgarian, and spent most their life there. I also close friends and family in Mexico, who have spent their whole lives there. I have no personal friends in Malawi. However, I have attended interviews by ones from Malawi about the accounts of their life and the persecution they experienced. And read a few more. None of these ones have ever said they were treated any differently than Jehovah's Witnesses in any other country - nor have they been asked to live by other standards in any matter. We work very hard to be a united organization where everyone is treated with value and respect, and double standards are not tolerated. There is no doubt in my mind, because of the depth of my conversations and association with them, that they would stand 100% behind what I am stating here. They would also recommend to others to go to the website to gain clarity regarding issues related to Jehovah's Witnesses. Jehovah's Witnesses are happy to clarify issues for people in conversation but we realize we can't answer all the questions that people have as quickly as they need or want their answers. It is better to have a source of clear answers than go to other third party websites of non-believers that won't state matters with accuracy. Does a person want the truth of matters, or do they just want to hear what they wanna hear? We have no problems having people ask questions or make statements about our religion, but once the answer is given it seems ridiculous to have some argue back just because they don't like the answer. |
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teachergirltoo
Joined: 28 Oct 2006
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Medic
Joined: 11 Mar 2003
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| Posted: Thu Aug 06, 2009 7:59 pm Post subject: |
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| teachergirltoo wrote: |
| roskim wrote: |
I don't mean to labor the point or suggest that any individual is not free to believe as he/she sees fit - but - if the church has been telling its followers one thing in some countries and then something different in another - Bulgaria - that would suggest some form of non-transparency at best and dishonesty at worst - so to go to their website may not be the place to get a clear and honest answer.
Same for the previously stated issue of Malawi and Mexico - apparently not all JW's were aware of this inconsistency - from what I've read.
Also - from what I have seen in JW magazines they have no difficulty with calling the shots as they see them in relation to other religions - so why should it be a problem for anyone else to discuss what they see as anomalies within the JW church? |
I have good friends that are Bulgarian, and spent most their life there. I also close friends and family in Mexico, who have spent their whole lives there. I have no personal friends in Malawi. However, I have attended interviews by ones from Malawi about the accounts of their life and the persecution they experienced. And read a few more. None of these ones have ever said they were treated any differently than Jehovah's Witnesses in any other country - nor have they been asked to live by other standards in any matter. We work very hard to be a united organization where everyone is treated with value and respect, and double standards are not tolerated. There is no doubt in my mind, because of the depth of my conversations and association with them, that they would stand 100% behind what I am stating here. They would also recommend to others to go to the website to gain clarity regarding issues related to Jehovah's Witnesses. Jehovah's Witnesses are happy to clarify issues for people in conversation but we realize we can't answer all the questions that people have as quickly as they need or want their answers. It is better to have a source of clear answers than go to other third party websites of non-believers that won't state matters with accuracy. Does a person want the truth of matters, or do they just want to hear what they wanna hear? We have no problems having people ask questions or make statements about our religion, but once the answer is given it seems ridiculous to have some argue back just because they don't like the answer. |
I find it quite incredible that you would refer people to your webbsite. Shouldn't followers of the faith know for a surety the rights and wrongs of their belief. For something that everyone has a knowledge of like "blood transfusion and sex", it goes without saying that you would have a definitive answer at your finger tips for any questions about the subjects from a non member of your faith. If you don't mind me saying so, I thing you are just trying to pass the buck. For something as controversial as the above two topics you just don't refer people to other sources. You should bear your heart to the rightness of the issues, and really make us feel that you are totaly convinced about the correctness of the path you have chosen. That's what the Mormons do.They don't fob someone off to a webbsite. |
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roskim
Joined: 02 Aug 2009
Location: korea
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| Posted: Thu Aug 06, 2009 8:05 pm Post subject: |
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I think you misunderstand - this is not what I want to hear - it does not affect me one way or another, I am simply pointing out information on other websites that differs from what you say and what the official church website says. Regardless of whether you have friends in Bulgaria and Mexico or not - recent history (apparently) says these things did happen...as posted above.
As I have been approached numerous times by your people offering me magazines (not the other way around) I would have thought you would be interested to know what other people think,feel and know about your religion. If not - no harm done. |
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teachergirltoo
Joined: 28 Oct 2006
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| Posted: Thu Aug 06, 2009 8:20 pm Post subject: |
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| Medic wrote: |
| teachergirltoo wrote: |
| roskim wrote: |
I don't mean to labor the point or suggest that any individual is not free to believe as he/she sees fit - but - if the church has been telling its followers one thing in some countries and then something different in another - Bulgaria - that would suggest some form of non-transparency at best and dishonesty at worst - so to go to their website may not be the place to get a clear and honest answer.
Same for the previously stated issue of Malawi and Mexico - apparently not all JW's were aware of this inconsistency - from what I've read.
Also - from what I have seen in JW magazines they have no difficulty with calling the shots as they see them in relation to other religions - so why should it be a problem for anyone else to discuss what they see as anomalies within the JW church? |
I have good friends that are Bulgarian, and spent most their life there. I also close friends and family in Mexico, who have spent their whole lives there. I have no personal friends in Malawi. However, I have attended interviews by ones from Malawi about the accounts of their life and the persecution they experienced. And read a few more. None of these ones have ever said they were treated any differently than Jehovah's Witnesses in any other country - nor have they been asked to live by other standards in any matter. We work very hard to be a united organization where everyone is treated with value and respect, and double standards are not tolerated. There is no doubt in my mind, because of the depth of my conversations and association with them, that they would stand 100% behind what I am stating here. They would also recommend to others to go to the website to gain clarity regarding issues related to Jehovah's Witnesses. Jehovah's Witnesses are happy to clarify issues for people in conversation but we realize we can't answer all the questions that people have as quickly as they need or want their answers. It is better to have a source of clear answers than go to other third party websites of non-believers that won't state matters with accuracy. Does a person want the truth of matters, or do they just want to hear what they wanna hear? We have no problems having people ask questions or make statements about our religion, but once the answer is given it seems ridiculous to have some argue back just because they don't like the answer. |
I find it quite incredible that you would refer people to your webbsite. Shouldn't followers of the faith know for a surety the rights and wrongs of their belief. For something that everyone has a knowledge of like "blood transfusion and sex", it goes without saying that you would have a definitive answer at your finger tips for any questions about the subjects from a non member of your faith. If you don't mind me saying so, I thing you are just trying to pass the buck. For something as controversial as the above two topics you just don't refer people to other sources. You should bear your heart to the rightness of the issues, and really make us feel that you are totaly convinced about the correctness of the path you have chosen. That's what the Mormons do.They don't fob someone off to a webbsite. |
I am happy to answer any question, but the blood issue subject was covered earlier in the thread in depth.
Last edited by teachergirltoo on Thu Aug 06, 2009 8:49 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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teachergirltoo
Joined: 28 Oct 2006
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| Posted: Thu Aug 06, 2009 8:32 pm Post subject: |
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| roskim wrote: |
I think you misunderstand - this is not what I want to hear - it does not affect me one way or another, I am simply pointing out information on other websites that differs from what you say and what the official church website says. Regardless of whether you have friends in Bulgaria and Mexico or not - recent history (apparently) says these things did happen...as posted above.
As I have been approached numerous times by your people offering me magazines (not the other way around) I would have thought you would be interested to know what other people think,feel and know about your religion. If not - no harm done. |
Yes, but as you well know there are lots of negative people out there saying things about Jehovah's Witnesses, and Mormons, and many other religions, that is either half-true or not true at all. So if someone that follows one of these religions explains a point, or it is stated on their official website, then isn't it much better to accept what they have to say, and realize that what is printed by someone that is not one of their followers on a third-party website or somewhere else obviously has their facts mixed up? This is how I think when I am speaking to other people that have better insight on subjects than myself. I don't care what anyone else has told me after I have gone to the source. |
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Captain Corea
Joined: 28 Feb 2005
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Thu Aug 06, 2009 11:12 pm Post subject: Re: International Jehovah's Witnesses |
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| teachergirltoo wrote: |
1. We do not disfellowship repentant people. |
And if I knew of a case where there was one, would you believe me? |
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teachergirltoo
Joined: 28 Oct 2006
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| Posted: Thu Aug 06, 2009 11:37 pm Post subject: Re: International Jehovah's Witnesses |
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| Captain Corea wrote: |
| teachergirltoo wrote: |
1. We do not disfellowship repentant people. |
And if I knew of a case where there was one, would you believe me? |
I know out of loyalty and love, sometimes we want to defend people we care about, but speaking from personal experience, often we are wrong in our judging of their situations too. Our intellectual honesty and emotional objectivity are flawed by connection. What I have learned is that actions prove an individual�s repentance more than anything. If he/she is truly repentant, the highest mountain nor the widest river (figuratively speaking), will not stop them from being reinstated by the Jehovah Witness organization because they feel bad about their action or actions and want to rectify it. There is no doubt in my mind that you probably know someone that says they were repentant about a situation but disfellowshipped regardless. I totally believe you. |
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roskim
Joined: 02 Aug 2009
Location: korea
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| Posted: Thu Aug 06, 2009 11:43 pm Post subject: |
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okay - last post on this...
I guess you checked the websites I noted in a previous post - there was a copy of a letter from the 'governing body'/church leaders which showed clearly that it was okay for the JW's in Mexico to comply with Govt. requirements whereas the same benefits were not afforded the JW's in Malawi. This is a letter from the decision makers in the church, so I would take that as an original source.
Please note that I am not calling into question your faith, or that of the people in Malawi who died for their convictions nor those JW's who have lost their lives due to not having a blood transfusion - that is an individual's choice, but I am calling into question the honesty of the church leaders/decision makers. In that case I do not see the official website as the only accurate source of information - given these two issue and the others as raised previously by craash - but there is no point in delving into those. |
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Captain Corea
Joined: 28 Feb 2005
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Thu Aug 06, 2009 11:45 pm Post subject: Re: International Jehovah's Witnesses |
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| teachergirltoo wrote: |
| Captain Corea wrote: |
| teachergirltoo wrote: |
1. We do not disfellowship repentant people. |
And if I knew of a case where there was one, would you believe me? |
I know out of loyalty and love, sometimes we want to defend people we care about, but speaking from personal experience, often we are wrong in our judging of their situations too. Our intellectual honesty and emotional objectivity are flawed by connection. What I have learned is that actions prove an individual�s repentance more than anything. If he/she is truly repentant, the highest mountain nor the widest river (figuratively speaking), will not stop them from being reinstated by the Jehovah Witness organization because they feel bad about their action or actions and want to rectify it. There is no doubt in my mind that you probably know someone that says they were repentant about a situation but disfellowshipped regardless. I totally believe you. |
Sounds like an awful lot of judgement by a flawed human institution. Who are you (or any JW) to judge if someone is truly repentant or not? We've already established (and you agree) that the religion is flawed (by earthly management); so IMO there's a good chance that people may be disfellowshipped when they are truly repentant. |
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teachergirltoo
Joined: 28 Oct 2006
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| Posted: Fri Aug 07, 2009 12:05 am Post subject: |
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| roskim wrote: |
okay - last post on this...
I guess you checked the websites I noted in a previous post - there was a copy of a letter from the 'governing body'/church leaders which showed clearly that it was okay for the JW's in Mexico to comply with Govt. requirements whereas the same benefits were not afforded the JW's in Malawi. This is a letter from the decision makers in the church, so I would take that as an original source.
Please note that I am not calling into question your faith, or that of the people in Malawi who died for their convictions nor those JW's who have lost their lives due to not having a blood transfusion - that is an individual's choice, but I am calling into question the honesty of the church leaders/decision makers. In that case I do not see the official website as the only accurate source of information - given these two issue and the others as raised previously by craash - but there is no point in delving into those. |
I can only give you comments based on the details of the research I have done, which iincludes much more than just that third-party website that you are referring to. In actuality though, if you are truly interested in why the Jehovah Witness organization wrote those particular letters about 40 years ago concerning those situations, needing more detail that what I can give you, then you should write a letter to the source, the Headquarters, and ask them directly. Then you would have the most accurate answer of all. That is the best advice I can give you. |
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teachergirltoo
Joined: 28 Oct 2006
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| Posted: Fri Aug 07, 2009 12:28 am Post subject: Re: International Jehovah's Witnesses |
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| Captain Corea wrote: |
| teachergirltoo wrote: |
| Captain Corea wrote: |
| teachergirltoo wrote: |
1. We do not disfellowship repentant people. |
And if I knew of a case where there was one, would you believe me? |
I know out of loyalty and love, sometimes we want to defend people we care about, but speaking from personal experience, often we are wrong in our judging of their situations too. Our intellectual honesty and emotional objectivity are flawed by connection. What I have learned is that actions prove an individual�s repentance more than anything. If he/she is truly repentant, the highest mountain nor the widest river (figuratively speaking), will not stop them from being reinstated by the Jehovah Witness organization because they feel bad about their action or actions and want to rectify it. There is no doubt in my mind that you probably know someone that says they were repentant about a situation but disfellowshipped regardless. I totally believe you. |
Sounds like an awful lot of judgement by a flawed human institution. Who are you (or any JW) to judge if someone is truly repentant or not? We've already established (and you agree) that the religion is flawed (by earthly management); so IMO there's a good chance that people may be disfellowshipped when they are truly repentant. |
We are not the ultimate reader of hearts. The Bible says only Jesus and God can do that. The overseers in the congregations are doing their best to keep the congregations clean and protected, following the example of ancient Christians, and instructions in the Bible. There have been times in my life when I have had close friends and family disfellowshipped, so I don�t take these situations, or conversations lightly. In fact, there have been moments when a decision has been made that I haven�t understood, and felt like a hen that wanted to stick out its chest aggressively to protect its chicks. However, I have learned through experience and time that it is wiser to stand back, watch and see if I did not see something that was there all along. In all these instances, with even being very close to the ones involved, I have learned that the ones making the decision to disfellowship have made the right decision�and that I don�t know everything. As I mentioned before, and was the case with all the ones I have known and seen disfellowshipped through the years, their contriteness and true repentance moved them to action to rectify their relationship with God, and seek reinstatement. But if you were to ask each of them in reflective conversation later, as I have with them, most said they thought they were repentant when they were disfellowshipped (some weren't; they were hatefully angry), but looking back, they have all said they know that the right decision was made regarding their disfellowshipping. It�s just that discipline hurts at the moment sometimes. |
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E_athlete
Joined: 09 Jun 2009
Location: Korea sparkling
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| Posted: Fri Aug 07, 2009 3:28 am Post subject: |
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A lot of you seem to think JW are flawed and find their behavior maladaptive and dumb. Unfortunately picking on the JW isnt going to change a thing for you. You have the scientologists and 100's of other religions all claiming to know "THE TRUTH". The funny part is religions are being born each day and all you theists can do is not judge and accept them. Otherwise they will judge you too. This leads into a world of maladaptive religions and behaviors with no end in sight.
Good luck trying to co-exist with each others maladaptive beliefs and behaviors. I'm guessing that maybe in the next 100 or so years JW and scientologists, mormons will become more mainstream. Don't worry, you'll have newer religions to criticise by then. |
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Shiktang
Joined: 10 May 2009
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| Posted: Fri Aug 07, 2009 5:31 pm Post subject: |
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| Well I commend the eforts of "teachergirltoo" to enlighten us about the machinations of the Jehovahs Witnesses. I think the organization is very lucky to have her as a follower and as a believer. |
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somekindofwonderful
Joined: 05 May 2009
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| Posted: Fri Aug 07, 2009 9:19 pm Post subject: |
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| Are there are any former Jehovah's Witnesses living and teaching in Korea that may be reading this? |
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