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coralreefer_1
Joined: 19 Jan 2009
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 Posted: Sat Aug 08, 2009 2:59 am Post subject: |
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Someone mentioned earlier about the racism toward Indians in America. My home state of North Carolina is considered the south and while it doesn't have quite the reputation of Mississippi or Alabama, it has it's share of racism. (It was the last state to join the confederacy and was basically dragged into it because all of the surrounding states had already
succeeded from the union.
From my own observations of being white and listening to white family members and friends, etc over the years, most of the racist attitudes I have encountered toward non-whites seem to be based more on their socio-economic status rather than their skin tone. There are many east Asians and Indians in my area, many working at the Research Triangle Park (practically a city of high-tech, bio-medical, medical, and IT companies. Those people tend to have good to great jobs, make good money, buy 5 bedroom homes and people tend to stereotype them as "wealthy', which I believe saves them from the more severe racism directed more at Blacks and Latinos which people believe have a lower economic status.
Years ago I was dating a Chinese woman here in Daegu, and the kind of attitudes she faced from servers, taxi drivers, school officials at her university, and many others were much worse than anything I have ever dealt with. I think many Koreans make the first assumption that she was either.
A- a factory worker
B- a student (she was a student)
In both cases, she would be considered on the very low end of economic status, given her country or origin and what she was doing in Korea.
By comparison, myself as a white American...their first assumption is that I am a teacher (which I am not) and being from a wealthy nation and the assumption that I was a teacher, who makes more money that the average factory worker or student, my treatment was much better than hers.
I think this is what someone was touching on by quoting figures from wiki about Indian doctors and business owners way back in the first pages of the thread. Money and economic status , while not an unbreakable shield, seems to protect certain groups from facing blatant racism in many cases.
Another point I would like to make is that when I was a boy, I can remember vividly the kind of racist remarks made against blacks and latinos, and it wasn't hidden. However once that Research Triangle Park was built, this caused many "non-locals" to move to the area for the great jobs offered in huge numbers (many of them coming from northern states). I believe this influx of many more racially tolerant people coming to the area helped change many of the attitudes of the local population. I think as time goes on and more foreigners come to Korea and people begin to have discussions like this, issues such as in the OP will become less and less frequent.
As has been pointed out, there is racism everywhere. I have been in Daegu for just under five years, but not even once been cussed out because I am a foreigner, spit on, attacked or any of the other wild things that others have related in this thread about treatment they have endured in Korea (and this is Daegu, certainly not Seoul)
Sure I get stared at, but I take that as a compliment. They might be thinking "Wow, I want to kick that guy in the teeth and send him home", but they also might be thinking, "Man, I wish I was that handsome and had a bulge in my jeans like that"
I've ridden the subway/walked all over the city...etc with many beautiful Korean women (the woman I am currently dating is a cosmetics model, so even Koreans think she is FINE) and over all these years no Korean has made any comments or complaints similar to some earlier examples about us being being together. It may happen someday, but I don't think it is as prevalent as reading Dave's would make it appear, based on my own experience, although I understand I am just one foreigner among many. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Sat Aug 08, 2009 3:06 am Post subject: |
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I totally agree that systemic, racial-superiortity racism is such a sad state of mind and culture. There is definately a sizeable number of Korean people here who fall into that and they come of as incredibly provincial.
At the same time it seems that some posters here believe that Korea should 'bow down' to the west, acknowledge its superiority and abandon any positive feelings towards Korean culture.
Of course the best way is for individuals to take the best parts of each culture they experience and adapt it to their own selves. This IS easier in America than Korea.
Understandbly the Koreans are a bit more closed to other cultures and for good reason, one look at Korean history (and the history of colonizers) can show the dangers of being too accepting towards outsiders. Whether it be Japanese, Mongolians, or the West these folks might not have the Korean people' best interests truly at heart. They may honestly believe they do, but often that is not the case.
We must also remember the 'brain-drain' that is a result of the Korean diaspora. The more open-minded Koreans may not be living in Korea.
America, on the hand, has had a wonderful experience from immigration, unless of course you are a Native American. Conversely many other countries have had only short histories with immigration or being conquered.
The stares are not isolated incidents, nor are verbal assaults, by neither are they frequent occurances. For everytime I've seen some bad comments voiced at a foreigner, I've seen local Korean people show people around on the subway, offer to give people a hand, and do other acts of basic human kindness. In fact, I've seen more.
And folks, I'm sorry but the brainwashing and propagandista I hear about, while at times is there, is not the systemic, borg-minded thing people here make it out to be. For all the bashers out there who justifiably get stressed by some aspect of Korean society, plenty of them are willing to acknowledge good friendships and relationships and with a fair number of local people.
The Borg-argument is starting to fall to the level of throwing out the Nazi card. No, Lee-Myung-Bak is not Locutus and some independent thinking Korean is not Hugh. Good Grief.
As for the 'personality-based' friendships of the ESl community, please.
Just scan the comments posted on certain groups of people who come here/live here and there is plenty of surface judgement going on. Women especially might get a good chuckle out of 'personality-based' friendships. Age groups and people with families too.
I see plenty of narrowmindedness from the locals, and I see plenty of it from Dave's posters.
Either way, whatever, to each their own, and we are all fairly civil to each other. If you don't like Korea, fine. Plenty of good reasons not to, and its not a horrible offense. What does grate is the "I'm so tolerant and enlightned" crap I hear. Oh please. |
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ESL Milk "Everyday
Joined: 12 Sep 2007
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| Posted: Sat Aug 08, 2009 7:30 am Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
| At the same time it seems that some posters here believe that Korea should 'bow down' to the west, acknowledge its superiority and abandon any positive feelings towards Korean culture. |
I agree that some people take their exceptions too far-- but on the other hand, culture is fluid, not static. Personally, I could never bring myself to support a culture in which racial purity and cultural or racial supremacy is so important. In fact, if someone stated that such a culture should be given a complete overhaul, I would probably have to agree, as harsh as that sounds.
Cultural preservation is far less important than global harmony-- and while it definitely isn't there yet, Korea has a far greater potential to slip into outright fascism than any Western country. Probably the only stumbling block to that is the American presence here, and Korea's dependence on the west.
| Steelrails wrote: |
| Understandbly the Koreans are a bit more closed to other cultures and for good reason, one look at Korean history (and the history of colonizers) can show the dangers of being too accepting towards outsiders. Whether it be Japanese, Mongolians, or the West these folks might not have the Korean people' best interests truly at heart. They may honestly believe they do, but often that is not the case. |
Seriously-- who cares WHY they're closed? Dwelling on the past at this point is futile and counter-productive. Justifying racism is the same as condoning it-- because it's the justification that's motivating all the self-righteousness and thoughtless, emotionally charged action...
And I disagree completely that all people believe Americans or whoever have Korea's best interests at heart (whatever those interests are-- care to define them for me? Or for that matter, define Korean culture?). Obviously, they don't.
But I do believe that the Americans are interested in democracy, stability and basic human rights-- and so are a lot of Koreans. These concepts don't 'belong' to any culture... even if most people believe that they originated in Western European philosophy.
Some Koreans may talk big about their 'glorious' past to the point where they convince themselves that feudalism, or even the Northern dictatorship is better-- but ultimately, I'm sure that if they had the choice to abandon their luxuries, their consumer goods, their supermarkets, their free elections, their industry, their freedom of speech and the rest of it, there would be massive protests-- more massive than American beef, even. Most Koreans LOVE democracy... because despite it's flaws, it's still the best system out there right now (apart from Western European socialism). It's why this country is doing so well right now.
| Steelrails wrote: |
| The stares are not isolated incidents, nor are verbal assaults, by neither are they frequent occurances. For everytime I've seen some bad comments voiced at a foreigner, I've seen local Korean people show people around on the subway, offer to give people a hand, and do other acts of basic human kindness. In fact, I've seen more. |
I believe that Korean racism is very deep, and very hidden. It takes a lot to bring it out-- but it is there. I'm not saying that every Korean is racist, just that if they are, you may not always know it.
Even all of the helping and kindness can be hiding racist thinking... because of Korean social obligations. The non-confrontational nature means that instead of lynching and fighting, you get staring and grumbling.
The public and private aspects of Korean society are far more separate than those of Western society-- something to keep in mind before you assume that your mere presence isn't offensive to more people than you may think. The poker-faced nature of it all is why every glimpse of racism is so shocking, and resonates so deeply. And when it comes out in a public place, it isn't uncommon to see other Koreans smiling proudly about it-- people who would have otherwise kept quiet. I've seen this happen... in dance clubs, on buses, in the workplace, etc.
And I've seen or known far more Koreans who want only to keep as much distance between themselves and the foreigners than those who don't. I would even say that non-racist Koreans are probably a small minority.
| Steelrails wrote: |
And folks, I'm sorry but the brainwashing and propagandista I hear about, while at times is there, is not the systemic, borg-minded thing people here make it out to be. For all the bashers out there who justifiably get stressed by some aspect of Korean society, plenty of them are willing to acknowledge good friendships and relationships and with a fair number of local people.
The Borg-argument is starting to fall to the level of throwing out the Nazi card. No, Lee-Myung-Bak is not Locutus and some independent thinking Korean is not Hugh. Good Grief. |
Really? How do you know this? Have you grown up in the Korean school system? Have you talked to someone who has? Have you read any books I should know about?
Obviously, it's not a 'Borg' society... because Koreans are still people. But it is probably closer to a Borg society than any other society in the world, except maybe Japan.
| Steelrails wrote: |
| As for the 'personality-based' friendships of the ESl community, please. Just scan the comments posted on certain groups of people who come here/live here and there is plenty of surface judgement going on. Women especially might get a good chuckle out of 'personality-based' friendships. Age groups and people with families too. |
ESL is a different matter... teachers aren't in their own environment, and have to make due. But we're not comparing Korean society to the ESL community, are we?
| Steelrails wrote: |
| Either way, whatever, to each their own, and we are all fairly civil to each other. If you don't like Korea, fine. Plenty of good reasons not to, and its not a horrible offense. What does grate is the "I'm so tolerant and enlightned" crap I hear. Oh please. |
I can't speak for everyone, but I consider myself tolerant only to a certain point. I don't tolerate people who take race so seriously, for example. I wouldn't say I'm enlightened, but I do believe that harmony, understanding and sincerity are important-- so of course I'm going to filter my assessment of a culture or a society through those values... and I think most other people here would do the same. If it happens back home, I am shocked and appalled. It's no different here, just because I'm a 'guest', or because it's my 'fault' that Korea is so @#$ed up, or whatever.
Most of the nitpicking/teasing on here about Korean food, values whatever stems from objections to Korean notions of 'superiority' and all the double standards, corruption, etc.. I'm sure that most foreigners here would have an overall rosier picture of this place if not for those two things. |
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js99
Joined: 25 May 2009
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| Posted: Sat Aug 08, 2009 10:35 am Post subject: |
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| Conversely many other countries have had only short histories with immigration or being conquered |
Poland was ruled by the Mongols when they started their rampage through Europe and was partitioned between Russia, Austria and Prussia (Germany) for over a hundred years. But yet they seem to be open toward foreigners.
Vietnam has suffered from invasions by the Thais, Khmers, Chinese, French, Japanese and the Americans over the course of their long history. But yet they seem to be friendly toward foreigners.
China bore the brunt of countless invasions and was even made part of several empires over the centuries. Then European powers and the US carved up areas of influence where they held sway until the 1949 Communist takeover. But yet they are still friendly and helpful toward foreigners going there.
Japan was the victim of 2 a-bomb attacks in 3 days in August, 1945 that vaporized thousands of people. Yet they remain friendly toward foreigners, although it could be seen as a mere ruse.
Korea used to be friendly toward foreigners while it was still developing into an industrialized nation. It seem that within the last decade or so Koreans have began to think that they are more advanced, more sophisticated and more financially prosperous than many western nations. In many ways, that is true. But the thing is that people are forgetting that humility is better than arrogance, especially when their economy is mostly based on export trade. |
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stevieg4ever
Joined: 11 Feb 2006
Location: London, England
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| Posted: Sat Aug 08, 2009 1:01 pm Post subject: |
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| I am sorry but Korean history offers no mitigation for racism. None whatsoever. And I know many people, from people who have done a Masters in Korean history, to my former Korean teachers and professors right through to well-to-do Koreans who would totally disagree. Korea does have a history of war, occupation, colonisation, division, poverty and prosperity: but what country doesn't. |
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rkc76sf
Joined: 02 Nov 2008
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| Posted: Sat Aug 08, 2009 2:44 pm Post subject: |
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| Julius wrote: |
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| The move led by a group of NGOs comes after policemen allegedly sided with the Korean offender during questioning. |
Now theres a surprise.
If I leave Korea, this is the single final factor in making me go. The knowledge that I am not safe in this country, that the police will never protect my rights.
I could get attacked, an ajosshi could fabricate lies against me, anything could happen..... and I know, absolutely, that the Korean police would not help. never. A foreigner is a sitting duck in this country, legally speaking. I can't handle this, it drives me absolutely nuts. Not only that but the fact that If I act in self-defense or protect myself in any way, the Korean police will still criminalise me. |
That's why I was glad to leave my teaching job and work for the U.S. govt., at least I have their support and fall into a different legal category. |
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CentralCali
Joined: 17 May 2007
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| Posted: Sat Aug 08, 2009 3:25 pm Post subject: |
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| rkc76sf wrote: |
| That's why I was glad to leave my teaching job and work for the U.S. govt., at least I have their support and fall into a different legal category. |
Unless you're on a diplomatic visa, then you also are subject to Korean law while in Korea. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Sat Aug 08, 2009 4:24 pm Post subject: |
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| I am sorry but Korean history offers no mitigation for racism. None whatsoever. And I know many people, from people who have done a Masters in Korean history, to my former Korean teachers and professors right through to well-to-do Koreans who would totally disagree. Korea does have a history of war, occupation, colonisation, division, poverty and prosperity: but what country doesn't. |
True its no excuse, but two special things about Korea's case- 1) That it occurred during the lifetime or near-lifetime of a large number of people still alive today. 2)Korea has almost always been the loser.
The historical examples, perhaps with the exception of the Poles, do not quite fit this model. And as the Poles are trying to 'fit into Europe' there is more of an incentive to be friendly, much like Korea was friendlier at one point.
One look at the rise of anti-immigrant parties in Europe forces one to conclude that this is not a unique phenomenon to Korea. But the racism is over there two argument is a pugilized deceased equine, freely acknowledged, so we should all agree that 'racism is unique to Korea' posts are inaccurate, correct?
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| Cultural preservation is far less important than global harmony-- and while it definitely isn't there yet, Korea has a far greater potential to slip into outright fascism than any Western country. Probably the only stumbling block to that is the American presence here, and Korea's dependence on the west. |
Easy for one to say when it is their culture that people would have to 'harmonize' to. Believe me, I've been where you are, the frustration at the close mindedness, the shock at the conformity, but I also came to realize just how condescending and arrogant my viewpoint was to 'those people'.
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| Seriously-- who cares WHY they're closed? Dwelling on the past at this point is futile and counter-productive. Justifying racism is the same as condoning it-- because it's the justification that's motivating all the self-righteousness and thoughtless, emotionally charged action... |
The first part of your post is in essence- "History is dumb, pointless and too difficult to comprehend." Fine, I'll let the merit of that statement speak for itself.
When it comes to racism it is such a complicated issue. Obviously here I am bothered by perceived racism towards the Korean people, yet obviously I have observed enough of it to know that it does occur with some regularity. At the same time as one who has had racist acquaintances and even friends, I am forced to acknowledge that not all racists are people who really are racist. A lot just enjoy being crass and race is one way to be crass. I can't adopt the self-righteous indignant tone at any act of racism the way I used to. People, and the issue, are far more complicated than that. I dare say that such a black and white view of the race issue as many anti-racists take is the same thinking as a 'true racist'- a refusal to take into regards an individual and their circumstances.
As for a resistance to America, democracy, foreign-ness- this is symptomatic of the wider phenomenon one author coined as "Jihad vs. McWorld." To much of the world, democracy, the global economy, 'human rights', multi-national corporations, media, food, etc. Are linked to the "McWorld" concept. And while the positive aspects of "McWorld" are appealing, many people around the world, in every country, are seriously considering that the negatives may outweigh the benefits. In fact some would willingly trade technology and prosperity, in exchange for freedom from McWorld's influences. They may indeed want their country to 'modernize', but they don't want it to modernize that way. Because of the way certain forces work, the people are left with rather unappealing alternatives, but these alternatives are still more appealing than being part of 'McWorld.'
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I believe that Korean racism is very deep, and very hidden. It takes a lot to bring it out-- but it is there. I'm not saying that every Korean is racist, just that if they are, you may not always know it.
Even all of the helping and kindness can be hiding racist thinking... because of Korean social obligations. The non-confrontational nature means that instead of lynching and fighting, you get staring and grumbling. |
Once again, deceased equine pugilism, this is rampant over in America and other countries to. If you aren't aware of it, then clearly you've read a rather isolated existance. Anyone who's dealt with 'real' people knows this is true.
Besides if America really has 'evolved' they would return the historical lands of the Native Americans to their tribes and allow them to resettle.
As long as they are sitting 1000 miles away from their homelands that were taken by force or by treaty-violation, don't lecture the Korean people on their attitudes towards minorities.
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| Really? How do you know this? Have you grown up in the Korean school system? Have you talked to someone who has? Have you read any books I should know about? |
Because a focus one one's own national history, singing the national anthem once a week, and learning about significant historical figures from one's own culture is not brainwashing. If you really think that there is hardcore brainwashing here, oh please. Of course there are national myths and widely held beliefs that are utterly inaccurate, but name a society that dosen't have those things?
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| ESL is a different matter... teachers aren't in their own environment, and have to make due. But we're not comparing Korean society to the ESL community, are we? |
No because if we did we would find too much in common so as to make both sides feel uncomfortable.
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| I can't speak for everyone, but I consider myself tolerant only to a certain point. I don't tolerate people who take race so seriously, for example. |
Ah the classic I am tolerant of everything but intolerance point. In other words tolerance is defined as 'Being accepting to that which does not displease you.' Sorry, that is not tolerance. Tolerance is only tolerance when it is thrown against everything you disagree with and you are still able to be friendly towards one another.
No, the 'I am tolerant of everything except intolerance' crowd's attitude is truly, 'People should like the things I like.' As for me, someone can say things that are completely obnoxious, but I'll treat them as an individual still. I do not believe that other people should have to 'love the world' because that is what society wants or the tolerance-borg want people to assimilate to. If people want to be isolated hermits and live away from 'others' than fine. The only limit is when it comes to the law or crime. Then of course, intolerance must be confronted. Our laws of freedom of speech and conscience protects the rights of people to be intolerant so long as their intolerance does not compromise other's rights.
Is my rambling diatribe over?
There is still the issue to solve- namely Korean racism. I think this is solved over a long-slow process of the cycles of emigration and return by native Koreans, and by the continued exposure, to a small degree, of Korea to immigrants into Korea. A large scale foreign wave would be too much, too soon.
Sadly, the solution to this problem might only occur in an ugly fashion- namely the rise of a nationalistic xenophobic party that would force the Korean community to deal with the problem internally. If other nations become involved, it won't work. It must be dealt with by the people here. At that time Korea will choose whether it wants to be truly open or truly closed.
Above all this takes time, patience, and a willingness by people to be but small cogs in this large and long process. Forming factions, front groups, and behaving as though we are citizens of this country and that Korean customs and law should serve our interests will only exacerbate the problem, not help it. |
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I'm no Picasso
Joined: 28 Oct 2008
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| Posted: Sat Aug 08, 2009 5:11 pm Post subject: |
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| js99 wrote: |
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| Conversely many other countries have had only short histories with immigration or being conquered |
Poland was ruled by the Mongols when they started their rampage through Europe and was partitioned between Russia, Austria and Prussia (Germany) for over a hundred years. But yet they seem to be open toward foreigners.
Vietnam has suffered from invasions by the Thais, Khmers, Chinese, French, Japanese and the Americans over the course of their long history. But yet they seem to be friendly toward foreigners.
China bore the brunt of countless invasions and was even made part of several empires over the centuries. Then European powers and the US carved up areas of influence where they held sway until the 1949 Communist takeover. But yet they are still friendly and helpful toward foreigners going there.
Japan was the victim of 2 a-bomb attacks in 3 days in August, 1945 that vaporized thousands of people. Yet they remain friendly toward foreigners, although it could be seen as a mere ruse.
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Have you *talked* to foreigners living in these countries? I went to Vienna in January and spent most of my time there with the (mostly ex-Yugoslav) expat community there. They would laugh in your face if you told them Austrians were open toward foreigners. |
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ESL Milk "Everyday
Joined: 12 Sep 2007
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| Posted: Sat Aug 08, 2009 6:12 pm Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
| True its no excuse, but two special things about Korea's case- 1) That it occurred during the lifetime or near-lifetime of a large number of people still alive today. 2)Korea has almost always been the loser. |
Once again, you seem to be justifying Korean racism. It is always possible to know one's own history without using it as an excuse for hatred and intolerance.
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| Easy for one to say when it is their culture that people would have to 'harmonize' to. Believe me, I've been where you are, the frustration at the close mindedness, the shock at the conformity, but I also came to realize just how condescending and arrogant my viewpoint was to 'those people'. |
I never once suggested that all Koreans should be completely American-- just that they need to lose the 'racial purity' aspect.
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| The first part of your post is in essence- "History is dumb, pointless and too difficult to comprehend." |
No, I was saying that history shouldn't be used to justify racism. Obviously history is valuable... but only when studied objectively.
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| I dare say that such a black and white view of the race issue as many anti-racists take is the same thinking as a 'true racist'- a refusal to take into regards an individual and their circumstances. |
So what... it's better to just let it slide? Obviously there's a difference between 'you have a big nose' and 'go back to your country'-- and of course, people are always capable of change. But that doesn't mean it's okay to let it slide. You seem to be the one who is making it black and white.
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| Besides if America really has 'evolved' they would return the historical lands of the Native Americans to their tribes and allow them to resettle. As long as they are sitting 1000 miles away from their homelands that were taken by force or by treaty-violation, don't lecture the Korean people on their attitudes towards minorities. |
No one is saying that this isn't bad too-- but it doesn't mean we should just shut up and let the racism continue here, because they're still separate issues. Besides, I personally did not 'take away' the lands of the Native Americans, colonize India or crucify Jesus-- are you suggesting that I should identify with the people who did because we're of the same race?
If you're asking me if I think the whole Native American issue sucks, then my answer is yes. But so does Korean racism... and before you once again say that they're entitled to it, think of all the Koreans living abroad, and ask yourself if the Western European/African people that live next to them are entitled to racism as well.
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| Ah the classic I am tolerant of everything but intolerance point. In other words tolerance is defined as 'Being accepting to that which does not displease you.' Sorry, that is not tolerance. Tolerance is only tolerance when it is thrown against everything you disagree with and you are still able to be friendly towards one another. |
Murder displeases me, should I tolerate that? What about rape? Or burglary? How about the male Korean staff at my summer camp going into middle school girls' rooms at night?
Obviously I'm going to express intolerance to things that 'displease' me... I'm sure that anyone else here would as well. But it's not like I'm saying that Koreans should stop eating kimchi and switch to hamburgers, or that they should all speak English because I have a hard time understanding Korean.
So okay, I admit it: racism displeases me... and furthermore, I don't see it serving much of a purpose. I don't think anything that I've said here is particularly racist or unreasonable, and if it comes off that way, then I apologize. I also don't think it's unreasonable to expect the same from other people, regardless of their background. Ultimately, people are just people... and while 'culture' may effect their perspectives and behaviors, it shouldn't effect their basic human decency... and our similarities are far more important than our differences.
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| There is still the issue to solve- namely Korean racism. |
And I don't think that this issue can be solved by tolerating racist behavior. |
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earthbound14
Joined: 23 Jan 2007
Location: seoul
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| Posted: Sat Aug 08, 2009 6:18 pm Post subject: |
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| js99 wrote: |
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Yet when one Korean or a small group of Koreans do something, the first reponse for many people on these forums is to tar ALL Koreans with the same brush.
What's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander, methinks.
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Like Urban Myth stated, when someone says something negative, they should have the audacity to accept negative things being said back to them, within the bounds of the ToS of course. |
I have to disagree a little with both of you (a little). I don't care what crap passes for conversation on other message boards in Korea. I don't care what they say about waegooks that much (a little, it's worrisome when those who are part of the majority feel so hateful of you), Nor do I really care about people being crappy on this site. It's an internet forum, people mouth off and vent. Sometimes you should question it, sometimes I let it slide.
Now if this same thing ends up in the press, happens on the bus, leads to collective actions against foreign people, on bs tv programs, leads to fewer rights in Korea as a waegook than those of Korean citizens in your home country (I have to compare here, if one country is going to offer something kind to another country then it's only respectful to do so in return or decline the offer) or leads to employers, citizens and even politicians looking down on you and the service you provide (with out due cause) then I'd have to object.
If we make crappy statements here...then so be it for Koreans on other sites...have at er. But I don't see foreign people doing much more than that here while there are a lot of things we have to deal with as foreign people in Korea that are not all that fair other than some internet slander. |
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earthbound14
Joined: 23 Jan 2007
Location: seoul
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| Posted: Sat Aug 08, 2009 6:24 pm Post subject: |
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| ESL Milk "Everyday wrote: |
To tell the truth, I think it's amazing that this kind of thing doesn't happen more often.
With everything you see here in the media and at school, racism is ingrained in Koreans from a very young age-- for the most part, they don't have a chance. The emphasis on rote memorization over critical thought isn't helping them to question their own beliefs, and they're basically being raised to accept every slanted, twisted, ridiculous piece of nationalist propaganda that they are given as fact.
And it isn't just the 'Foreigners are dirty' stuff, it's also the 'We are better than everyone else' stuff, as well as the reverence for ambition, manipulation, hierarchy, competition and war. They're being taught that they are all victims of a great injustice perpetrated by all manners of foreigners, and that they need to fight to make it better-- Korean educators are actively JUSTIFYING racism.
Added to this, children are punished for disagreeing, and it's extremely rare that you'd find a news article, or school curriculum that left room to suggest that Korea is anything but a glorious miraculous paradise, while the rest of the world is a bizarre and terrifying nightmare.
That's one of the reasons I can't say I would disagree with anyone who bashed Korea-- they're not bashing a race, and they're not suggesting that if one of these people were able to see the light and stop thinking they were better than everyone that they wouldn't be accepted. These same people, when they were back home, would easily and without a moment's hesitation accept someone of Asian descent as a friend, based solely on their personality, and their ability to see past racial boundaries-- but seriously, exactly how many sincere, open, trusting and completely natural and comfortable relationships have been formed between westerners and Koreans without the Korean half having developed a wonderful immunity to all the BS they were raised in???
Koreans (and by this I mean hardcore Koreans, not real people who happen to be Korean) have chosen a closed culture. They have chosen a culture that resists diversity, open-mindedness and compassion. They have chosen a culture which actively prevents people of other backgrounds from belonging to it, respecting it or even enjoying it. They have chosen a culture that is by its nature offensive to other cultures. They have chosen to exclude others. It could easily change if the right person decided on it, but this has yet to happen. Obviously, there are neutral aspects, but that's not what stands out, is it?
So until it happens, I must fully and completely support anyone who objects to Korean culture. Seriously, we're all supposed to accept the whole 'Korea is superior' idea because it's racist not to accept other people's beliefs??? Does that mean we should actually consider the notion that we are inferior because of our DNA??? Because of the color of our skin, or because we're from two different backgrounds? Do they really expect other people to believe that they're as evil as Koreans think they are? |
Well put. |
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js99
Joined: 25 May 2009
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| Posted: Sat Aug 08, 2009 6:34 pm Post subject: |
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| I went to Vienna in January and spent most of my time there with the (mostly ex-Yugoslav) expat community there. They would laugh in your face if you told them Austrians were open toward foreigners. |
Read the post more carefully, my friend.
I was not talking about Austrians, but Poles.
Actually, I feel Austrians are very resentful for the fact that they lost their prestige in the last century that they held for 6 centuries. |
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I'm no Picasso
Joined: 28 Oct 2008
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| Posted: Sat Aug 08, 2009 7:03 pm Post subject: |
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| js99 wrote: |
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| I went to Vienna in January and spent most of my time there with the (mostly ex-Yugoslav) expat community there. They would laugh in your face if you told them Austrians were open toward foreigners. |
Read the post more carefully, my friend.
I was not talking about Austrians, but Poles.
Actually, I feel Austrians are very resentful for the fact that they lost their prestige in the last century that they held for 6 centuries. |
Fair enough.
But my point is, if you talk to the foreigner community in most countries, even in well-established European countries, you're likely to hear quite a bit about that particular society being closed off. The more I talk to other foreigners, from places completely different from my home country and living in countries entirely different from the one I'm residing in, the more I realize how similar our situations are, in a lot of almost eerie ways. Even though the nuances of the 'outsiderness' differ from culture to culture, it's always there, granted in varying degrees.
It's the foreigner condition.
I'm not ever going to be one to argue that we should just suck it up and deal with it, because we chose to live in Korea, knowing the situation. I don't think it's acceptable in any country, for any reason. But all I'm saying is, I think arguing that things are vastly different in other places doesn't hold much water from what I've heard. |
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js99
Joined: 25 May 2009
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| Posted: Sat Aug 08, 2009 7:31 pm Post subject: |
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I agree with you, the feeling of isolation is felt in many expat communities around the globe- and its sad because of the amount of globalization
I also agree that historical events should not be used as an excuse to exclude foreigners from participating in society.
Not only that, but the excuse that Korea was once seen as a single-blooded homogeneous nation. Korea was never a single-blooded nation because of its proximity to the major powers in the region and the continuous number of invasions. Many Koreans could trace their ancestry to China, Mongolia and even Japan. But most Korean omit these links in their family registry for fear of being called "Tikki-myung" or mixed blooded person. Thats how scared Koreans are about their true heritiage.
I am not trying to insult anyone, just contributing to the thread using knowledge I've attained during my time in Korea. |
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