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Julius
Joined: 27 Jul 2006
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 Posted: Sat Aug 08, 2009 8:13 pm Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
| Understandbly the Koreans are a bit more closed to other cultures and for good reason, one look at Korean history (and the history of colonizers) can show the dangers of being too accepting towards outsiders. Whether it be Japanese, Mongolians, or the West these folks might not have the Korean people' best interests truly at heart. They may honestly believe they do, but often that is not the case. |
That is a good point.
However, obviously....we are not axe-weilding invaders. We're teachers.
Times have moved on. We live in a more secure age. Nobody is threatening to invade and annex Korea or pillage its women and children.
Westerners have done their utmost to protect koreas future, independence and prosperity. 20+ nations sent their sons to die to protect this country from the sort of rule that has reduced NK to brutal poverty.
Isn't it time koreans started to show a little gratitude? If foreigners were good enough to die for Koreans en masse, then they are good enough to marry their daughters.
In addition to that numerous countries around the world have suffered repeated multiple foreign agression and invasions. They have still been able to put it behind them and move into the 21st century, become a part of the world at large, engage in meaningful intercultural exchange and see the big picture.
Why can't Korea do the same? |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Sat Aug 08, 2009 8:16 pm Post subject: |
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| Once again, you seem to be justifying Korean racism. It is always possible to know one's own history without using it as an excuse for hatred and intolerance. |
I don't justify Korean societal racism, but I do not get the same level of indignation towards racism from an individual Korean person. Societal and law based racism (note this is seperate from immigration and resident alien issues) is deplorable. You are right to fight the good fight against that.
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| I never once suggested that all Koreans should be completely American-- just that they need to lose the 'racial purity' aspect |
Agree.
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| No, I was saying that history shouldn't be used to justify racism. Obviously history is valuable... but only when studied objectively. |
My mistake, in that case, agree.
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| So what... it's better to just let it slide? Obviously there's a difference between 'you have a big nose' and 'go back to your country'-- and of course, people are always capable of change. But that doesn't mean it's okay to let it slide. You seem to be the one who is making it black and white. |
Well as long as we can agree to take each incident of racial discomfort on a person-by-person basis instead of painting broad strokes on a person, then I agree. But I am not making this black and white, this is such a complicated issue and one has to balance the regards and rights of botht he native Koreans and the foreign teacher guests.
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| Besides, I personally did not 'take away' the lands of the Native Americans, colonize India or crucify Jesus-- are you suggesting that I should identify with the people who did because we're of the same race? |
And neither have many of the Korean people in this country committed those awful acts like that guy did to the Indian fellow. Since you do not want to be held accountable for the group or the past, so to should you not hold the Korean people accountable for a few drunken morons (although the problem is a bit worse than that). And please, the continued conquest of someone's rightfully held land, in violation of treaty, is far worse than some drunken ajoshi, so if you really care about a racial issue, how about that one?
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| So okay, I admit it: racism displeases me... and furthermore, I don't see it serving much of a purpose. I don't think anything that I've said here is particularly racist or unreasonable, and if it comes off that way, then I apologize. I also don't think it's unreasonable to expect the same from other people, regardless of their background. Ultimately, people are just people... and while 'culture' may effect their perspectives and behaviors, it shouldn't effect their basic human decency... and our similarities are far more important than our differences. |
No problems here, as long as you are treating those as acts committed by individuals and not by a group. But why then the label of Korean? why not 40 year old man from Busan or 25 year old lady from Seoul?
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| And I don't think that this issue can be solved by tolerating racist behavior. |
In my experience the reason many people these days are 'racist' is nto so much that they truly are, its just they don't much care for the anti-racisms self-righteous crusade and PCification of culture. Believe it or not there are plenty of people out there who will say racist things to each other or about other people, yet are not truly racists, because they are doing it in the company of friends who are not the same race as them. Rather, it is a rebellion against the mass-media diversi-nazis and an understanding that there are a good many people out there who just have truble dealing with other cultures and groups of people. Sometimes the reason 'racial' insults are used are more to test another person as to how they will respond, rather than an outright hatred of their culture.
In my opinion, when dealing with other cultures, one has to have a very thick skin about things. It DOES get tested here, I know. But you tolerance and cultural exchange is not found in the easy things, it is found by working through the most challenging ones.
So yes, stand up to law cased systemic racism, but a holier than thou attitude expressed towards individuals, in my opinion, perpetuates the problem. You may believe that you ostracizing someone will make them change, I don't think so. The more you isolate someone, the more they re-affirm what they believe, if you allow room for them at the table, then change is far easier to accomplish.
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| I also agree that historical events should not be used as an excuse to exclude foreigners from participating in society. |
But we have to learn from history to realize that the mass-introduction of immigrants have not always gone well for the native country. Sometimes it does go well, other times it does not. If a people choose to be cautious in their treatment of foreigners, history would seem to excuse such a procedure. The Koreans are wrong to assume the worst about the foreign population here and the best about themselves. Likewise, the foreign population here is wrong to assume the best about themselves and the worst about the native population here.
Take the people here person by person, no more, no less. If you try anything more you will end up resentful. I once did look at Korean people as a group back home and it was absolutley awful for me in terms of my realtionship with the individuals who made up that group. I was far too harsh on them and it destroyed my sunny dispostion.
We all have to let some things go. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Sat Aug 08, 2009 8:23 pm Post subject: |
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| Julius wrote: |
| Steelrails wrote: |
| Understandbly the Koreans are a bit more closed to other cultures and for good reason, one look at Korean history (and the history of colonizers) can show the dangers of being too accepting towards outsiders. Whether it be Japanese, Mongolians, or the West these folks might not have the Korean people' best interests truly at heart. They may honestly believe they do, but often that is not the case. |
That is a good point.
However, obviously....we are not axe-weilding invaders. We're teachers.
Times have moved on. We live in a more secure age. Nobody is threatening to invade and annex Korea or pillage its women and children.
Westerners have done their utmost to protect koreas future, independence and prosperity. 20+ nations sent their sons to die to protect this country from the sort of rule that has reduced NK to brutal poverty.
Isn't it time koreans started to show a little gratitude? If foreigners were good enough to die for Koreans en masse, then they are good enough to marry their daughters.
? |
Only it wasn't about South Korea per se. South Korea was a proxy for the great powers. The U.S and other nations didn't send troops out of the goodness of their heart. There were many ulterior (some not at all noble) motives at play. Besides which far more Koreans died than foreigners. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Sat Aug 08, 2009 8:27 pm Post subject: |
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[quote="js99"]
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Japan was the victim of 2 a-bomb attacks in 3 days in August, 1945 that vaporized thousands of people. Yet they remain friendly toward foreigners, although it could be seen as a mere ruse.
, . |
Japan is equally closed as Korea...they're just not as blunt about it. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Sat Aug 08, 2009 8:45 pm Post subject: |
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Two things to add...Does the average Korean person spend most of their day on...
A)Spend time receiving coded subspace instructions from the Delta Quadrant about how to deal with the waygookin and constant reflection on how Korea is so much better
or
B)Worry about their job, kids, what's on TV, what's for dinner, where to get their drink on, whom to go to bed with, and how to enjoy a decent summer day
For goodness sake people, they ARE normal human-beings.
Also one reason people here may be more closed is that for most of us this is a 'short-term' relationship, there simply is no reason to develop a close friendship because it is all going to come to an end in the near-future. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Sat Aug 08, 2009 9:24 pm Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
Two things to add...Does the average Korean person spend most of their day on...
A)Spend time receiving coded subspace instructions from the Delta Quadrant about how to deal with the waygookin and constant reflection on how Korea is so much better
or
B)Worry about their job, kids, what's on TV, what's for dinner, where to get their drink on, whom to go to bed with, and how to enjoy a decent summer day
For goodness sake people, they ARE normal human-beings.
Also one reason people here may be more closed is that for most of us this is a 'short-term' relationship, there simply is no reason to develop a close friendship because it is all going to come to an end in the near-future. |
Agreed.
If anything I think foreigners on this board spend FAR more time thinking about Koreans and what they think, than the other way around. For example we are only one of the factors in the workplace to them....while each and every Korean we interact with is a factor in our daily lives, not just in the workplace, but shopping, getting our hair cut, going out to a club.... |
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Ilsanman
Joined: 15 Aug 2003
Location: Bucheon, Korea
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| Posted: Sat Aug 08, 2009 11:56 pm Post subject: |
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Don't forget India.
| js99 wrote: |
I agree with you, the feeling of isolation is felt in many expat communities around the globe- and its sad because of the amount of globalization
I also agree that historical events should not be used as an excuse to exclude foreigners from participating in society.
Not only that, but the excuse that Korea was once seen as a single-blooded homogeneous nation. Korea was never a single-blooded nation because of its proximity to the major powers in the region and the continuous number of invasions. Many Koreans could trace their ancestry to China, Mongolia and even Japan. But most Korean omit these links in their family registry for fear of being called "Tikki-myung" or mixed blooded person. Thats how scared Koreans are about their true heritiage.
I am not trying to insult anyone, just contributing to the thread using knowledge I've attained during my time in Korea. |
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DWAEJIMORIGUKBAP
Joined: 28 May 2009
Location: Electron cloud
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| Posted: Sun Aug 09, 2009 4:35 pm Post subject: |
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| Goon-Yang wrote: |
| Same crap happened to me a while ago. The K-guy was real dumb though. There I was with a student going to mmartial arts class. I'm wearing my belt, it's black and a guy starts mouthing off to me in Korean. I said the same sort of crap back and the guy charged me. Luckily a student, a tiny little K-gal, jumped between us and said to him "he can and will injure you". He was huffing and puffing and had to be torn away by a couple of grandmas. If two grannies can pry you off someone you mustn't be trying that hard. |
Could be that he saw your black belt and realised you could / maybe would beat the sh*t out of him and was hoping for a little blood money... A lot of my mates here who are big and built get started on by people who's arses they could obviously kick... |
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komerican
Joined: 17 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Sun Aug 09, 2009 6:36 pm Post subject: |
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| I'm no Picasso wrote: |
But I think what people are trying to say is that you're kind of doing the same thing you're accusing people of doing here. You keep talking about "Westerners" which is a troublesome label in and of itself, since, as Bronski pointed out, you don't include black people in that category. I haven't read every single post in this thread, but it seems to me that the individual posters you're engaging with right now have not said anything at all "bashing" Korea, or Koreans.
Look. I know there are a lot of problems at this site. I'm just as likely to jump on one side as I am the other. People have a hard time keeping a balanced perspective, especially as we are foreigners and therefore highly, highly sensitive to things like this. It's hard to be 100% rational when someone screams in your face on the street for no reason, or attacks your girlfriend for being with you because of where you're from, or treats your children in a certain way because they are "mixed blood". It's hard to keep a neutral perspective.
That's, ultimately, the difference between what goes on here at Dave's and what goes on at Anti English Spectrum Cafe. It doesn't justify hate-filled bitter little people who should have never left their home country, where they are comfortable, spoiled and unchallenged, coming here and blaming their completely ordinary (for a foreigner) hardships on an entire nation being "savages" or "unenlightened". But foreigners are in a vulnerable position, many living in small towns far away from their families, and far away from any other foreigners who can form any kind of support network. The people at AESC don't have any excuse at all. We can't ignore the fact that we are foreigners in Korea -- the folks at AESC CHOOSE to concern themselves with something that would ultimately have no real bearing on their daily lives if they chose to simply ignore it.
Anyway, my main point is, komerican, I think all anyone is trying to tell you is that if you want people to stop saying "Koreans blah blah blah", it might be a good idea to stop saying "Westerners blah blah blah." Fair enough? |
it�s a general discussion board. People will disagree. And as far as I know, the TOS does not ban criticizing the hypocrisy of the criticizers.
Sometimes I write �some� before Westerner but I can�t do that all the time. And there were posts bashing Korean men on this thread, as if the bus incident represents Korean men at all.  Bashing of Koreans have gone on long before I joined this site and will continue after this site closes. Your comments would carry more weight if you responded a few times to the Korea bashing.
Anyway, my only point is that folks are free to bash away on this site  and I'm free to comment on it! Or they would have to change the board name to General Propaganda. |
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I'm no Picasso
Joined: 28 Oct 2008
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| Posted: Sun Aug 09, 2009 6:56 pm Post subject: |
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| komerican wrote: |
| I'm no Picasso wrote: |
But I think what people are trying to say is that you're kind of doing the same thing you're accusing people of doing here. You keep talking about "Westerners" which is a troublesome label in and of itself, since, as Bronski pointed out, you don't include black people in that category. I haven't read every single post in this thread, but it seems to me that the individual posters you're engaging with right now have not said anything at all "bashing" Korea, or Koreans.
Look. I know there are a lot of problems at this site. I'm just as likely to jump on one side as I am the other. People have a hard time keeping a balanced perspective, especially as we are foreigners and therefore highly, highly sensitive to things like this. It's hard to be 100% rational when someone screams in your face on the street for no reason, or attacks your girlfriend for being with you because of where you're from, or treats your children in a certain way because they are "mixed blood". It's hard to keep a neutral perspective.
That's, ultimately, the difference between what goes on here at Dave's and what goes on at Anti English Spectrum Cafe. It doesn't justify hate-filled bitter little people who should have never left their home country, where they are comfortable, spoiled and unchallenged, coming here and blaming their completely ordinary (for a foreigner) hardships on an entire nation being "savages" or "unenlightened". But foreigners are in a vulnerable position, many living in small towns far away from their families, and far away from any other foreigners who can form any kind of support network. The people at AESC don't have any excuse at all. We can't ignore the fact that we are foreigners in Korea -- the folks at AESC CHOOSE to concern themselves with something that would ultimately have no real bearing on their daily lives if they chose to simply ignore it.
Anyway, my main point is, komerican, I think all anyone is trying to tell you is that if you want people to stop saying "Koreans blah blah blah", it might be a good idea to stop saying "Westerners blah blah blah." Fair enough? |
it�s a general discussion board. People will disagree. And as far as I know, the TOS does not ban criticizing the hypocrisy of the criticizers.
Sometimes I write �some� before Westerner but I can�t do that all the time. And there were posts bashing Korean men on this thread, as if the bus incident represents Korean men at all. Bashing of Koreans have gone on long before I joined this site and will continue after this site closes. Your comments would carry more weight if you responded a few times to the Korea bashing.
Anyway, my only point is that folks are free to bash away on this site and I'm free to comment on it! Or they would have to change the board name to General Propaganda. |
This is a typical argument of someone who has no argument. I didn't say you weren't allowed to comment -- I'm just responding to what *I* disagree about with your comments.
As for responding to Korean bashings, have a look at my posting history before you go there.
Re: not writing "some" all the time. Well, then. Just apply that same logic to every post you see that starts with "Koreans...." and I'm sure you'll feel much better. |
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Bronski
Joined: 17 Apr 2006
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komerican
Joined: 17 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Sun Aug 09, 2009 7:12 pm Post subject: |
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| travelingfool wrote: |
I am the dreaded, evil, capitalist, universally reviled white male pig.
That being said, and not to pat myself on the back, on many occasions I have taken a stand in public when someone starts being an ass about someone's race. About two months ago while jogging here in a park in LA a white woman was berating a Mexican guy telling him to learn English, go back to Mexico, etc. I stopped and told her she should GTFO of America. Same thing happened outside of a fast food restaurant, oddly enough on the same day, and I responded in the same way. I also dated a black woman for awhile and even here in LA we got rude comments from ALL nationalities. I got into a scuffle with a white guy in a bar in Seal Beach, CA after he started talking trash about us being together. Unlike many Koreans, my loyalty to another person is not based on race. When I see injustice I will take action regardless of whether or not the person is one of "my people".
I am not Martin Luther King Jr. but I will fight for what I believe is right and have done so on many occasions regardless of the victim's race. Maybe doing so means squat in the end, but small actions can lead to bigger things.
Korea, the US, Nazi Germany, etc, all exploited peoples' fears in order to cause division and fear. Unfortunately many people buy into this hook, line, and sinker while the politicians and corporate elites are laughing their way to the bank, with our money. |
You have a lot of anecdotes where you are the hero...good for you. However, they do show that intolerance still exists in the States. Also, keep in mind that the presence of so many blacks and Mexicans in the States is particular to US history and geography. A Korean would not even had had that "hero" moment since obviously there have not been that MANY blacks, Mexicans, or any other minority, in Korea and for such a LONG time. |
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komerican
Joined: 17 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Sun Aug 09, 2009 7:35 pm Post subject: |
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| travelingfool wrote: |
Komerican, have you been smoking crack? Do you think whites had nothing to do with the civil rights movement? Were any of the soldiers in the Union army white, you know, the ones that fought against slavery? (no, of course not, they were all Asian, Hispanic, and Black. The whites were the ones fighting to keep the evil blacks enslaved). Do some homework on your own instead of regurgitating your liberal leftist college professors anti-white, anti-middle class, revisionist historical BS.
Obama getting elected doesn't mean racism doesn't exist in the US. However, as much you hate to hear this, some evil white people actually voted for the guy.
One more thing......why is racism always white vs. everyone else? I know you hate to hear this and probably won't believe it, but other races can be racist too. Do some research about the ethnic cleansing going on between Latinos and Blacks in South Central Los Angeles, San Pedro, etc. It's a blood bath with murders occurring on a daily basis. Of course, that is all because of whites though just like everything bad that happens in Korea is either the fault of slime ball English teachers or Japan. |
Here is a quote from Martin Luther King Travelingfool
| Quote: |
| It is a sad fact that, because of comfort, complacency, a morbid fear of communism, and our proneness to adjust to injustice, the Western nations that initiated so much of the revolutionary spirit of the modern world have now become the arch anti-revolutionaries. |
http://www.democracynow.org/2008/1/21/dr_martin_luther_king_jr_1929
I am just objecting to the revision of American history that goes on here. The fact is TF, Westerners were complacent in the face of this cruelty. Where is the critical thinking, the logic in your education systems that you folks tout as being Western? I don't see it in that quote.
Looking at history without rose colored glasses we can see that the South fought FOR slavery and actually the creation of an Empire of slavery that would expand south to Latin America (The Ostend Manifesto) and that the North did not fight for the end of slavery but to keep the union since Lincoln was willing to let the south keep slavery as long as they did not secede. I'm not saying Westerners are evil, I'm just saying let's not make up some story and call it history. |
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Bronski
Joined: 17 Apr 2006
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| Posted: Sun Aug 09, 2009 8:13 pm Post subject: |
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| Does anyone remember when this thread was about an Indian who dealt with racism on the bus? |
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komerican
Joined: 17 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Sun Aug 09, 2009 8:13 pm Post subject: |
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| I'm no Picasso wrote: |
| komerican wrote: |
| I'm no Picasso wrote: |
But I think what people are trying to say is that you're kind of doing the same thing you're accusing people of doing here. You keep talking about "Westerners" which is a troublesome label in and of itself, since, as Bronski pointed out, you don't include black people in that category. I haven't read every single post in this thread, but it seems to me that the individual posters you're engaging with right now have not said anything at all "bashing" Korea, or Koreans.
Look. I know there are a lot of problems at this site. I'm just as likely to jump on one side as I am the other. People have a hard time keeping a balanced perspective, especially as we are foreigners and therefore highly, highly sensitive to things like this. It's hard to be 100% rational when someone screams in your face on the street for no reason, or attacks your girlfriend for being with you because of where you're from, or treats your children in a certain way because they are "mixed blood". It's hard to keep a neutral perspective.
That's, ultimately, the difference between what goes on here at Dave's and what goes on at Anti English Spectrum Cafe. It doesn't justify hate-filled bitter little people who should have never left their home country, where they are comfortable, spoiled and unchallenged, coming here and blaming their completely ordinary (for a foreigner) hardships on an entire nation being "savages" or "unenlightened". But foreigners are in a vulnerable position, many living in small towns far away from their families, and far away from any other foreigners who can form any kind of support network. The people at AESC don't have any excuse at all. We can't ignore the fact that we are foreigners in Korea -- the folks at AESC CHOOSE to concern themselves with something that would ultimately have no real bearing on their daily lives if they chose to simply ignore it.
Anyway, my main point is, komerican, I think all anyone is trying to tell you is that if you want people to stop saying "Koreans blah blah blah", it might be a good idea to stop saying "Westerners blah blah blah." Fair enough? |
it�s a general discussion board. People will disagree. And as far as I know, the TOS does not ban criticizing the hypocrisy of the criticizers.
Sometimes I write �some� before Westerner but I can�t do that all the time. And there were posts bashing Korean men on this thread, as if the bus incident represents Korean men at all. Bashing of Koreans have gone on long before I joined this site and will continue after this site closes. Your comments would carry more weight if you responded a few times to the Korea bashing.
Anyway, my only point is that folks are free to bash away on this site and I'm free to comment on it! Or they would have to change the board name to General Propaganda. |
This is a typical argument of someone who has no argument. I didn't say you weren't allowed to comment -- I'm just responding to what *I* disagree about with your comments.
As for responding to Korean bashings, have a look at my posting history before you go there.
Re: not writing "some" all the time. Well, then. Just apply that same logic to every post you see that starts with "Koreans...." and I'm sure you'll feel much better. |
No, I answered your question. Clearly since westerners are making these points it's appropriate to question their objectivity. Look at the quote above from MLK. Was he wrong to refer to "Western nations"?. Obviously there were some Westerners who supported civil rights for minorities but clearly most Westerners at that time were complacent. If you object to "Westerner" then please offer a substitute word, bc I can't think of one. 
I'm just asking why are Westerners thought of as being "enlightened". Wouldn't a a more apt description be, imo, "Complacent"? |
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