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a war in your country: what do you do?
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Sergio Stefanuto



Joined: 14 May 2009
Location: UK

PostPosted: Mon Aug 10, 2009 7:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bacasper wrote:
Of course. Heaven forbid we try to make things better! Rolling Eyes


The only thing proletarian revolution makes is a humans-to-ashes conveyor belt
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mole



Joined: 06 Feb 2003
Location: Act III

PostPosted: Mon Aug 10, 2009 7:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bacasper wrote:
Sergio Stefanuto wrote:
I'm strongly in favor of patriotism, unless there's a racist or supremacist intent - which there need not be. I think revering things that are familar, places as well as people, isn't a particularly obscene impulse. Also, patriotism helps keep the mindless rabble's minds off far more toxic things - namely, revolutionary utopianism.

Of course. Heaven forbid we try to make things better! Rolling Eyes

mole wrote:
"Governments derive their just powers from the consent of the governed... Whenever government becomes destructive to life, liberty, or property
[i.e., the pursuit of happiness], it is the right of the people to alter or to abolish it...
It is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such government, and to provide new guards for their future security."
� American Declaration of Independence (1776)

Perhaps, a revolution might stir me out of my pacifism, but I'll answer the OP with another question:

What if they gave a war and nobody came?


Can't fool me. I know your type.
Get an automatic rifle in your hands, and Instant Taz War Machine~!
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bacasper



Joined: 26 Mar 2007

PostPosted: Mon Aug 10, 2009 8:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sergio Stefanuto wrote:
bacasper wrote:
Of course. Heaven forbid we try to make things better! Rolling Eyes


The only thing proletarian revolution makes is a humans-to-ashes conveyor belt

Like the American Revolution?

And what is it that conventional wars do again?
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djsmnc



Joined: 20 Jan 2003
Location: Dave's ESL Cafe

PostPosted: Mon Aug 10, 2009 8:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fox wrote:
I'd avoid said war. I have no especial loyalty to America; I was born there, and American citizenship is convenient, but I have little in common with most of its citizenry, am regularly disgusted by the things I see my fellow citizens saying and doing, and I don't especially approve of its government's activities on a day to day basis.

Beyond that, I'm a pacifist. Perhaps a truly important cause could cause me to break said pacifism, but I'm certainly not breaking that creed to defend a government whose actions I strongly disagree with, and that's what going to war to "defend your country" really is: defending your current government.


I can kind of go with you on that, but first and foremost, in such a completely unlikely event, I would defend family, friends, and personal property. Nothing remotely akin to an invasion of any type is going to happen in the US anytime soon, unless something weird happens.

Government collapse? Again, family, friends, and personal property. Form a network of loved ones and similar people who happen to have a stockpile of survival goods and firearms. Run to the hills!
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Koveras



Joined: 09 Oct 2008

PostPosted: Mon Aug 10, 2009 9:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It would depend on the enemies. I would defend Canada against foreign rule, on the premise that Canada is still by and large a child of Europe and that Europe itself is still a parent worth cherishing. So I would defend it against Africans, Asians, and Arabs, and so on. But as time passes and this theory holds less and less, my answer becomes substantially like most others here.
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Sergio Stefanuto



Joined: 14 May 2009
Location: UK

PostPosted: Mon Aug 10, 2009 11:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bacasper wrote:
Sergio Stefanuto wrote:
bacasper wrote:
Of course. Heaven forbid we try to make things better! Rolling Eyes


The only thing proletarian revolution makes is a humans-to-ashes conveyor belt


Like the American Revolution?


No, not like that.

The American Revolution was a bourgeois revolution against royal encroachments on liberty, clearing the way for the rapid expansion of industry, commerce and the establishment of a capitalist society.

The American Revolution took place before Marx was even born. Proletarian revolution is the sine qua non of Marxism.
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Kuros



Joined: 27 Apr 2004

PostPosted: Tue Aug 11, 2009 12:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'd report to the gov't-in-exile or a friendly country for proper military training. If they refuse me based on age (I'm only 2Cool or physical inability, I contribute money to the cause.
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RJjr



Joined: 17 Aug 2006
Location: Turning on a Lamp

PostPosted: Tue Aug 11, 2009 11:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If North Korea invaded America, I would try to kill as many of the invading soldiers as possible. Brainwashed people over in North Korea would consider me a terrorist and say I hate them for their freedoms.
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cwflaneur



Joined: 04 Aug 2009

PostPosted: Tue Aug 11, 2009 3:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sergio Stefanuto wrote:
bacasper wrote:
Sergio Stefanuto wrote:
bacasper wrote:
Of course. Heaven forbid we try to make things better! Rolling Eyes


The only thing proletarian revolution makes is a humans-to-ashes conveyor belt


Like the American Revolution?


No, not like that.

The American Revolution was a bourgeois revolution against royal encroachments on liberty, clearing the way for the rapid expansion of industry, commerce and the establishment of a capitalist society.

The American Revolution took place before Marx was even born. Proletarian revolution is the sine qua non of Marxism.


I can't imagine the historical ignorance that leads someone to describe the American Revolutionary War as a proletarian struggle.
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Sergio Stefanuto



Joined: 14 May 2009
Location: UK

PostPosted: Tue Aug 11, 2009 7:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cwflaneur wrote:

I can't imagine the historical ignorance that leads someone to describe the American Revolutionary War as a proletarian struggle.


The same kind of person who:

* believes Israel to be a misunderstood genocidal state, despite the fact the Arab population trebled in the Occupied Territories from 1967

* believes that Islam is a misunderstood religion of peace despite the fact that Islamic terrorists have committed nearly 14,000 deadly acts of terrorism on civilians in the last 8 years

* believes in an international Jewish conspiracy whom, amongst many other ills, are chiefly responsible for 9/11

* believes the US and Israel are chiefly responsible for Islamic terrorism, despite the fact that Islamic terror regularly takes place in over 40 different countries (and is clearly a much wider, and indeed internal, conflict)

* adheres to the principles of Marxism, despite the fact that such principles inspired the murder of over 100 million unarmed civilians in the 20th century

and he's just warming up.

RJjr wrote:
If North Korea invaded America, I would try to kill as many of the invading soldiers as possible. Brainwashed people over in North Korea would consider me a terrorist and say I hate them for their freedoms.


Piercing commentary
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JMO



Joined: 18 Jul 2006
Location: Daegu

PostPosted: Wed Aug 12, 2009 2:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There are lots of things I would like to do, but knowing myself I'd run with my family. I'm not a soldier or a killer. Any IRA type movement that sprang up would be made up of much grimmer men than I. In reality though we would have little choice....either cannon fodder or flight.o
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Steelrails



Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System

PostPosted: Wed Aug 12, 2009 3:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

"I hate the idea of causes and if I had to choose between betraying my country and betraying my friend, I hope I should have the guts to betray my country." - E.M. Forster

I lean towards states rights. Being from Michigan I would side with Michigan over any outside power, federal government included. Such an event would draw me back to America. My friends and family all are from Michigan. That is all that needs to be said. As for a collapse, fortunately I already have a network of family and friends well stocked for The Upheaval.

Likewise if something were to happen here in Korea I would not hightail it back to America. That little man up north will not bully me. (His shock troopers in T-72s may make me wet my pants tho) But I hope I would at least have liquor courage to fight them and send them back running up North or die facing the enemy. I definately would not abandon this country.

I'm also not opposed to less than lofty wars- I would wholeheartedly support the annexation of the Bahams, Tahiti, and other resort islands for the sole benefit of providing me with discounted travel and tropical fruit. If you're going to engage in evil wars at least be sensible about it.
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bixlerscott



Joined: 27 Sep 2006
Location: Near Wonju, South Korea

PostPosted: Wed Aug 12, 2009 3:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

When it comes to the USA, it's very possible it will fight itself to the end with a revolution. This would make for one confusing fight to start with, because few may know who to trust or may not trust anyone and just be shooting anyone they see. Without land, vehicles, and a large clan with a lot gunnery, you may not have a choice on whether you would fight or not. Unexpected happenings come at times you least expect them to so you might be forced to fight out of a matter of circumstance. It's easy to hypothesize whether you would stay to fight nor not, but the reality is when something like this happens, you may not have time to decide or simply be hemmed into a situation. Commercial air service and most infrastructure goes out of commission when war or severe civil upheaval occurs in any land. Often before it's official that big trouble is brewing.

If China ever shows up knocking on our door for debt default, maybe Americans would tribal up to fight together, but have a high probability of losing this fight in my opinion. Is this to happen at the end of 2012? No one has a choice on whether to be involved into a situation like this or simply run, because it's all an accident waiting to happen and when it does, the banksters who put us into this mess will have vanished into the blue yonder. Only the rich might be able to have the choice to escape and then the world might hem them in with arrest for creating such a misfortune. I would like think that the economy and job market are going to get right sided up again and we'll go on as if nothing was wrong, but reality tells us the contrary to what we would like. A long prosperous peaceful lifestyle where neighbors trust each other. Serious economic issues can and do lead to wars. Even when they have to do with politics and religion, it's usually over 2 or more peoples claiming rights to a specific geographic area for it's history and natural resources. You fight if the land and your way of life is sentimental to you.
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visitorq



Joined: 11 Jan 2008

PostPosted: Wed Aug 12, 2009 4:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

bixlerscott wrote:
When it comes to the USA, it's very possible it will fight itself to the end with a revolution. This would make for one confusing fight to start with, because few may know who to trust or may not trust anyone and just be shooting anyone they see. Without land, vehicles, and a large clan with a lot gunnery, you may not have a choice on whether you would fight or not. Unexpected happenings come at times you least expect them to so you might be forced to fight out of a matter of circumstance. It's easy to hypothesize whether you would stay to fight nor not, but the reality is when something like this happens, you may not have time to decide or simply be hemmed into a situation. Commercial air service and most infrastructure goes out of commission when war or severe civil upheaval occurs in any land. Often before it's official that big trouble is brewing.

If China ever shows up knocking on our door for debt default, maybe Americans would tribal up to fight together, but have a high probability of losing this fight in my opinion. Is this to happen at the end of 2012? No one has a choice on whether to be involved into a situation like this or simply run, because it's all an accident waiting to happen and when it does, the banksters who put us into this mess will have vanished into the blue yonder. Only the rich might be able to have the choice to escape and then the world might hem them in with arrest for creating such a misfortune. I would like think that the economy and job market are going to get right sided up again and we'll go on as if nothing was wrong, but reality tells us the contrary to what we would like. A long prosperous peaceful lifestyle where neighbors trust each other. Serious economic issues can and do lead to wars. Even when they have to do with politics and religion, it's usually over 2 or more peoples claiming rights to a specific geographic area for it's history and natural resources. You fight if the land and your way of life is sentimental to you.

It doesn't really matter if they escape or not (though it would be much better if they were arrested imprisoned/killed for their crimes). The main thing is toppling their power structure, which means taking back control of our money supply (and seizing all their ill-gotten assets). This will be a very painful transition, as it will effectively leave us without a functioning monetary system or system of credit. This would bring a halt to nearly all economic activity (except bartering) and would be impossible to sustain for long without utterly destroying our economy and society itself.
Fortunately, it is possible to replace the Fed monopoly currency with a real, government issued one. Our actual economy is still strong and has the potential to become ever stronger (as technology improves). But this will not happen until our finance comes back down to the level of the real economy, becomes sustainable, and our assets become properly valued (which is impossible when the currency is debased and we have run away inflation). We need a real, permanent money supply as we had before the Fed came into being. This is not only necessary, but very desirable: the US was the most prosperous nation on earth before the Fed, and we can continue to be so after it's abolished.

Basically, if the people can be woken up to the fact that Fed is the source of all our problems, we can focus all our efforts on the real enemy who would then be powerless to resist us. Congress would be forced by popular opinion to get back on the tracks and legislate the Fed out of existence, and government spending/corruption would be curtailed (no more Fed to run to for junk bonds).
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bacasper



Joined: 26 Mar 2007

PostPosted: Wed Aug 12, 2009 8:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

cwflaneur wrote:
Sergio Stefanuto wrote:
bacasper wrote:
Sergio Stefanuto wrote:
bacasper wrote:
Of course. Heaven forbid we try to make things better! Rolling Eyes


The only thing proletarian revolution makes is a humans-to-ashes conveyor belt


Like the American Revolution?


No, not like that.

The American Revolution was a bourgeois revolution against royal encroachments on liberty, clearing the way for the rapid expansion of industry, commerce and the establishment of a capitalist society.

The American Revolution took place before Marx was even born. Proletarian revolution is the sine qua non of Marxism.


I can't imagine the historical ignorance that leads someone to describe the American Revolutionary War as a proletarian struggle.

My bad.

But at least you agree it was a revolution! Wink
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