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visitorq
Joined: 11 Jan 2008
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 Posted: Thu Aug 13, 2009 2:51 am Post subject: |
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cwflaneur: you are basically leveraging your entire argument on those 9 points you listed earlier. The question is, who died and made those 9 points definitive? (ex. you claim that racial superiority has to be a factor, and yet Mussolini didn't focus much on this at all, until pressured by Hitler to hand over Jews later on).
Can you at least cite some evidence that there is a general consensus among scholars that those 9 points are essential for defining fascism? If not, or if there are mixed views, then surely you must concede that fascism has a much broader usage as a word than the narrow historical one you are limiting it to. |
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cwflaneur
Joined: 04 Aug 2009
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| Posted: Thu Aug 13, 2009 3:59 am Post subject: |
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| visitorq wrote: |
cwflaneur: you are basically leveraging your entire argument on those 9 points you listed earlier. The question is, who died and made those 9 points definitive? (ex. you claim that racial superiority has to be a factor, and yet Mussolini didn't focus much on this at all, until pressured by Hitler to hand over Jews later on).
Can you at least cite some evidence that there is a general consensus among scholars that those 9 points are essential for defining fascism? If not, or if there are mixed views, then surely you must concede that fascism has a much broader usage as a word than the narrow historical one you are limiting it to. |
Maybe not racial superiority, but Mussolini's invasion of Ethiopia was trumpeted in racialist terms. However, ethnic identity was always at the core of fascist nationalism. Ask any Basque or Catalonian what it was like to attempt to print literature in their own native languages under Franco's regime.
I never said that my nine points are definitive. Some of them could be combined and read as the same point, and I know there's historical debate on the matter. I absolutely welcome that kind of serious, principled discussion. It was you and bacasper who took my list and ran with it, so I played along. But I would definitely say that simply because there is debate among scholars or that some would re-work it or delete an entire section of what I wrote, it does not follow that there is no proper usage at all and that the word can be used by anyone and everyone in any way they please, no matter how blatantly ahistorical, opportunistic, crass, or simply dumb their usage is. |
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seonsengnimble
Joined: 02 Jun 2009
Location: taking a ride on the magic English bus
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| Posted: Thu Aug 13, 2009 5:01 am Post subject: |
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| ManintheMiddle wrote: |
General Observation:
Looks like our Dear OP has done a vanishing act, or perhaps he's trying to muster up an argument by consulting with dave from milwaukie, oregon. Keep hope alive!
Note to all:
One Dr. Hill attended the congressional townhall meeting offered by David Scott (D) representative for his district in Atlanta yesterday. He had the temerity to politically articulate a pertinent question on health care reform only to be berated by the Honorable Congressman. He was then accused of not being from his district, although Dr. Hill resides and has his practice there. Glad to see the Democrats are setting such a good example of "vigorous and informed debate" on this issue. LOL. Check out this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BttTtjhlvmY
The congressman doesn't even have a clue what's in the bill, that's obvious. But he's got the back of his bro, don't ya know. |
You forget to mention the part about how the meeting was about a highway project. As far as "having the back of his bro" he responded that he doesn't know yet if he's voting yes on the bill, but he supports a government healthcare plan. |
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bacasper
Joined: 26 Mar 2007
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| Posted: Thu Aug 13, 2009 6:03 am Post subject: |
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| cwflaneur wrote: |
| bacasper wrote: |
Camps are being staffed in your backyard, and you are all embroiled in the exact definition of a word. |
How's that investigative report going bacasper? Are you going to be doing it yourself, or have you contacted a news agency or independent journal and done your best to convince them to do it? Keep us updated please. |
WTF are you on about? I am just going by the Resettlement/Internment article. Imagine much?
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Sorry to see you are a creationist. Like species, languages evolve also. There are alternative definitions of "fascist," e.g.
A reactionary or dictatorial person.
Who cares what it is called? They are at your door with guns. |
No, I've addressed the matter of lexical evolution. Read again. The fact that words evolve does not mean a word has evolved simply because some random clown says it has. |
Random clown? That was from both dictionary.com and thefreedictionary.com.
From Merriam-Webster: 2 : a tendency toward or actual exercise of strong autocratic or dictatorial control.
Random clowns all? Need more?
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| the fact that any political cartoonist or columnist anywhere in the land can mock or criticise the gov't without fear of being pulled away to a cell... |
If we can have a civil conversation on this point, if what you say here is true, why do you suppose so few of them take a serious ine in opposition? Why do so many journalists just accept the government press releases and do so little investigative reporting themselves? Why does one have to scour the alternative media to learn what is actually going on?
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...is enough to disprove your contention that the US has entered a fascist state in regard to civil liberties alone. You still haven't proven that point, and would still have to establish all the others even after you had. |
(bold mine)
I never made any such contention. My point is that the US is seriously headed in that direction.
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It's no surprise that you still won't respond critically to anything I say. I'm sorry, this conversation left you behind a while ago bacasper... there's no coming back unless you're actually ready to start countering my points.  |
Sorry, but I will not allow myself to be drawn into the argument which you are so desperately, fascistically if I may say, seeking. Not my bag. Find someone else. I made my point. Take it or leave it. |
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cwflaneur
Joined: 04 Aug 2009
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| Posted: Thu Aug 13, 2009 12:46 pm Post subject: |
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| bacasper wrote: |
| cwflaneur wrote: |
| bacasper wrote: |
Camps are being staffed in your backyard, and you are all embroiled in the exact definition of a word. |
How's that investigative report going bacasper? Are you going to be doing it yourself, or have you contacted a news agency or independent journal and done your best to convince them to do it? Keep us updated please. |
WTF are you on about? I am just going by the Resettlement/Internment article. Imagine much? |
What article? You posted a job offer that you found. I didn't see any article. Earlier on, I suggested that Occam's razor would yield a more plausible explanation of what it might be; as you rejected that explanation, my comment above was a facetious inquiry as to what you intend to do about it, as you believe the US is preparing to build concentration camps. Someone who really thinks this is happening should initiate an investigation or convince someone else to do so, shouldn't they? Get the ball rolling. (oh, no, I just told you what to do, does that mean you're gonna call me a "fascist" again?  )
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Random clown? That was from both dictionary.com and thefreedictionary.com.
From Merriam-Webster: 2 : a tendency toward or actual exercise of strong autocratic or dictatorial control. |
And you haven't demonstrated that there's anything "autocratic" or "dictatorial" in the political tendencies of the U.S. Hence my intolerance of your glib and ill-informed use of the word. Who is the autocrat or dictator who wields, or is even threatening to wield absolute and permanent control of the American state?
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| the fact that any political cartoonist or columnist anywhere in the land can mock or criticise the gov't without fear of being pulled away to a cell... |
If we can have a civil conversation on this point, if what you say here is true, why do you suppose so few of them take a serious ine in opposition? Why do so many journalists just accept the government press releases and do so little investigative reporting themselves? Why does one have to scour the alternative media to learn what is actually going on? |
Your response is very nearly its own rebuttal. It's telling that instead of asking "if what you say is true, then why...", you're unable to simply allege that it's not true. A serious line in opposition? You don't even have to look beyond the mainstream media to find op-ed articles tearing apart every single thing the president and gov't have said or done. A fascist state would take a heavy hand in wiping out and jailing anyone who took part in that behavior, let alone the alternative media. Look back a hundred years at the state of newspapers then. They usually were little more than mouthpieces for the most influential candidate or politician or capitalist du jour. Today there are much better and various and more widely extensive sources of information, along with, as I said, no shortage of irreverence for the dread State. Was the US a fascistic place 110 years ago? No it wasn't, and if it was then that would undermine your thesis that the US is "becoming" fascistic. |
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RJjr
Joined: 17 Aug 2006
Location: Turning on a Lamp
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| Posted: Thu Aug 13, 2009 2:06 pm Post subject: |
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I'm not sure if we're fascist or not, but it does appear that we've been gradually heading in that direction this decade.
We've waved our national flags all decade. The government and media got the American public all lathered up with racial & religious propaganda to promote our offshore prisons and invasion of Iraq in a similar fashion to how the German government of the 1930s used racial and religious propaganda to justify its prison industrial complex and the invasion of the Soviet Union.
The Department of Homeland Security isn't as bad as the Gestapo was, but it's still a step in that direction, not a step away from it. The Patriot Act is nothing more than a tool to punish dissenters. And if you don't like Obama's health care plan, you're unAmerican, just like you were if you didn't think these wars were a brilliant idea back when everyone thought they would last two or three months.
And now, as a US citizen, I own total loser corporations I never would've bought stock in in a million years. Corporate America has become literal instead of figurative.
Maybe we should go back to the previous design of our dimes, minus the .900 silver, of course http://www.coincommunity.com/coin_histories/dime_1916_mercury.asp |
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cwflaneur
Joined: 04 Aug 2009
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| Posted: Thu Aug 13, 2009 4:07 pm Post subject: |
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| RJjr wrote: |
We've waved our national flags all decade. |
Have we? I don't own a flag. No one's ever forced me to salute or to sing the national anthem or to put up a picture of the dear Leader, either. National emotions tend to run high at the beginning of wartime, same exact thing has happened during every single war the US has been involved in, good or bad.
| RJjr wrote: |
| The government and media got the American public all lathered up with racial & religious propaganda to promote our offshore prisons and invasion of Iraq in a similar fashion to how the German government of the 1930s used racial and religious propaganda to justify its prison industrial complex and the invasion of the Soviet Union. |
Have to disagree with you there, what "racial & religious proganda"? I don't recall the gov't or media telling me that Iraqis are an inferior race, as the Nazis said about the Slavic race, or that all of them are enemies of the US by virtue of being Iraqi. Totally invalid comparison. By all means criticise the Iraq war for legitimate, practical reasons, though.
| RJjr wrote: |
| The Department of Homeland Security isn't as bad as the Gestapo was, but it's still a step in that direction, not a step away from it. The Patriot Act is nothing more than a tool to punish dissenters. |
Dissenters? Oh come on, have the organizers of anti-war demonstrations been put into concentration camps because of the Patriot Act? It's a heavyhanded tool used mainly for clamping down on terrorists. Even the instances where it's been abused do not prove that its primary intent is to "punish dissenters", with an ideological premise that contrarian speech is incompatible with the welfare of the nation. Free speech is alive and well in the US, and I'm sorry that that's such a depressing fact for some people!
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And if you don't like Obama's health care plan, you're unAmerican
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You mean if I publish an op-ed ripping apart Obama's plan I'm going to be taken to a House UnAmerican Activities Committee?
I realize that you only want to say the US is taking little steps in the direction of fascism, but your case even on that level is very, very weak. |
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bacasper
Joined: 26 Mar 2007
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| Posted: Fri Aug 14, 2009 4:05 am Post subject: |
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Surprisingly, no on has mentioned the link between sexual repression and fascism.
From:
Sexual repression, exploitation and Fascism
| Wilhelm Reich, in Listen, little man! wrote: |
| People fall into such or such madness, complain about this or that, because their bodies are stiff, because they are unable to give love or to enjoy it. |
Sexual repression is one of the main pillars of exploitation. Neuroses and fascistic tendencies are consequences of this same sexual repression.
That's what the psychoanalyst Wilhelm Reich has shown.
"The suppression of the sexual activity of children and teenagers is the basic mechanism which produces the characterial structures adapted to political, ideological, economic control [... ] The repression of natural sexuality in the child, particularly of the genitality, makes the child apprehensive, timid, obeying, apprehensive in front of the authority, 'nice', 'quiet'; it paralyses its rebellious tendencies, because the rebellion is associated with anguish; by inhibiting the sexual curiosity of the child, it causes a general confusion of its critical sense and of its mental faculties." Wilhelm Reich.
Sexual repression, the essential cause of neuroses, produces armored individuals, generally poorly suited for autonomy and thus supports the submission, the handling and the exploitation of these individuals. Etienne de La Bo�tie had already noticed this propensity so what he called "voluntary servitude", without being able to explain its origin. It is this characteristic which allows capitalism, a system based on the exploitation of man by man, to thrive.
Sexual repression also involves the development of non respectful sexual behaviors, of fascistic behaviors (the need to yield to a chief), irrational behaviors as well as mystical tendencies.
Thus, capitalism and Fascism having the same root, cannot be separated. |
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cwflaneur
Joined: 04 Aug 2009
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| Posted: Fri Aug 14, 2009 6:36 am Post subject: |
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^^
The author aptly describes fascism as "the need to yield to a chief" and I don't think that is implicit in the capitalistic impulse at all. Even the critics of capitalism would concede that the system is based on self-interest, not self-repression - for both boss and worker, even in the more exploitative capitalist relationships. In the absolute worst jobs in capitalist countries, I think you'll find that workers man those jobs because there is no other alternative available to them and they want the money, not because they take a perverse satisfaction in "yielding" to the foreman. The worker only cares about his wages and doesn't give a damn about the ego of his "chief".
Classic academic inanity.
Sexual repression has plenty of relevance in explaining religious militancy, though. |
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RJjr
Joined: 17 Aug 2006
Location: Turning on a Lamp
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| Posted: Fri Aug 14, 2009 8:34 am Post subject: |
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| cwflaneur wrote: |
| Have we? I don't own a flag. No one's ever forced me to salute or to sing the national anthem or to put up a picture of the dear Leader, either. National emotions tend to run high at the beginning of wartime, same exact thing has happened during every single war the US has been involved in, good or bad. |
Did every single German own a swastika flag or have to put up pictures of their leader? We've been in wars most of my life, but it wasn't until this decade that we went ultranational. Of course, you don't see many these days, but that's only because our team is losing. It reminds me of how there would always be tons of orange Tennessee flags on cars on the drive down to Gainesville when the University of Tennessee would play the Florida Gators. On the drive back, after losing 62-37 or losing 35-18, there weren't as many orange flags waving.
| cwflaneur wrote: |
| Have to disagree with you there, what "racial & religious proganda"? I don't recall the gov't or media telling me that Iraqis are an inferior race, as the Nazis said about the Slavic race, or that all of them are enemies of the US by virtue of being Iraqi. Totally invalid comparison. By all means criticise the Iraq war for legitimate, practical reasons, though. |
You mean you haven't heard the phrase "radical Islam"? It's been mainly Christians and Jews who have gotten into these wars, but I never hear "radical Judaism" or "radical Christianity" used in the media or by politicians. If someone talks about bombing Israel, media and politicians call it racism. But bombing Arabs in Iraq who have never done anything to America is never called racist. In fact, it was the cool thing to do in 2003. Now, most of the people who were going bonkers for war won't even admit they were. That includes politicians and journalists. And you don't hear comparisons of Iraqis to the Arabs who lost the Six Day War anymore.
| cwflaneur wrote: |
| Dissenters? Oh come on, have the organizers of anti-war demonstrations been put into concentration camps because of the Patriot Act? It's a heavyhanded tool used mainly for clamping down on terrorists. Even the instances where it's been abused do not prove that its primary intent is to "punish dissenters", with an ideological premise that contrarian speech is incompatible with the welfare of the nation. Free speech is alive and well in the US, and I'm sorry that that's such a depressing fact for some people! |
Yeah, the old fart Barry Reingold in Fahrenheit 911 was such a terrorist. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Fri Aug 14, 2009 5:09 pm Post subject: |
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| Did every single German own a swastika flag or have to put up pictures of their leader? We've been in wars most of my life, but it wasn't until this decade that we went ultranational. |
And not every single American waved a flag either. A good number of people barely even cared. "Oh we're fighting Saddam again" and then it was back to whatever else amused them.
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| It reminds me of how there would always be tons of orange Tennessee flags on cars on the drive down to Gainesville when the University of Tennessee would play the Florida Gators. On the drive back, after losing 62-37 or losing 35-18, there weren't as many orange flags waving |
Phil Fullmer as George Bush. I love it!
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| but I never hear "radical Judaism" or "radical Christianity" used in the media or by politicians. |
 Read any in-depth poltical mag and you here all about AIPAC or Radical Right-Wing Christians. On all sides of the political spectrum.
America is not fascist. Acting like we're in some 1930s Germany is a desperate attempt by marginalized individuals to add some spice and drama to their lives. Fascists are nowhere near as inept as the gang of jokers we have running things now. Fascists are bad but at least they care more about their country than those clowns. In a fascist system if you ruin an industry you are executed, not promoted.
Flag-waving fascist? 
Sorry, but as long I still feel free enough to get drunk on the street corner and tell off the government, and the worst that will happen is a night in the drunk tank, we are not in a fascist country. |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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| Posted: Sat Aug 15, 2009 8:41 am Post subject: |
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http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/09/opinion/09rich.html?_r=1&scp=1&sq=is%20Obama%20punking%20us&st=cse
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What the Great Recession has crystallized is a larger syndrome that Obama tapped into during the campaign. It�s the sinking sensation that the American game is rigged � that, as the president typically put it a month after his inauguration, the system is in hock to �the interests of powerful lobbyists or the wealthiest few� who have �run Washington far too long.� He promised to smite them.
No president can do that alone, let alone in six months. To make Obama�s goal more quixotic, the ailment that he diagnosed is far bigger than Washington and often beyond politics� domain. What disturbs Americans of all ideological persuasions is the fear that almost everything, not just government, is fixed or manipulated by some powerful hidden hand, from commercial transactions as trivial as the sales of prime concert tickets to cultural forces as pervasive as the news media. |
The "powerful hidden hand" is what I call "the scam". Everything, or virtually, is a scam. Concert tickets are a great example. Media does not depict life as most people live it. This is corporatism. Your average person in Canada or the US is aware that a thousand hands are in his pocket everyday, but he can't articulate or understand the larger issues. |
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RJjr
Joined: 17 Aug 2006
Location: Turning on a Lamp
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| Posted: Sun Aug 16, 2009 4:42 am Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
| And not every single American waved a flag either. A good number of people barely even cared. "Oh we're fighting Saddam again" and then it was back to whatever else amused them. |
True, but those were the illegal aliens.
| Steelrails wrote: |
| Phil Fullmer as George Bush. I love it! |
Phil Fulmer's replacement, Lane Kiffin, would be a better Bush since he's got where he is only because of his dad and has talked about how he's going to go on the road and kick ass, but won't be able to back it up when his team gets embarrassed on the field.
However, it was Fulmer and Bush who each disappointed the Lulus and Juniors of America: http://home.att.net/~luluandjunior/wsb/html/view.cgi-image.html--SiteID-284846.html 
Fridge Friedgen looks like he's auditioning for the role of a Taliban commander, the way he delivers the line, "All they want to do is talk about how big they are and how this is the year they knock us off. Well, when they come in here, they've got to play our game in our house and nobody beats us in our house." http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Ig5gTgOkRw Come to think of it, the way Fridge thumped Phat Phil in the Peach Bowl, maybe Phil would be a good Bush.
Peyton Manning and Eric Berry are like American soldiers -- guys who go out there with heart, talent, and greatness, but who lose to their opponents anyway because of the lousy morons leading them.
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| Read any in-depth poltical mag and you here all about AIPAC or Radical Right-Wing Christians. On all sides of the political spectrum. |
Good point about the radical right-wing Christians, but what political mag referred to AIPAC as "radical Judaism"? I haven't heard that phrase used anywhere and would expect the ADL to go bonkers if it ever happened.
Criticizing a lobby isn't the same as calling the dominant religion in that country radical. Bacasper linked an article critical of the Turkish lobby, but there weren't any references to radical Islam.
| Steelrails wrote: |
| America is not fascist. Acting like we're in some 1930s Germany is a desperate attempt by marginalized individuals to add some spice and drama to their lives. |
The spice and drama in my life is TSA agents feeling of my ass and fondling my nutsack every time I fly. That never happened in 20th century pre-fascist America.
| Steelrails wrote: |
| Fascists are bad but at least they care more about their country than those clowns. |
Okay, good point.
| Steelrails wrote: |
| Sorry, but as long I still feel free enough to get drunk on the street corner and tell off the government, and the worst that will happen is a night in the drunk tank, we are not in a fascist country. |
Lucky you, being in South Korea. I'm in America and it's Sunday, so I can't legally buy alcohol today.  |
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caniff
Joined: 03 Feb 2004
Location: All over the map
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| Posted: Sun Aug 16, 2009 5:50 am Post subject: |
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| RJjr wrote: |
Lucky you, being in South Korea. I'm in America and it's Sunday, so I can't legally buy alcohol today. |
Sounds like fascism to me.
I'm here in Massachusetts (for the time being) where we can now buy alcohol on Sundays from 12 to 8 p.m. The sale used to be completely banned on Sundays (unless it was at a restaurant, bar or club) due to the legacy of the Puritanical "Blue Laws", so at least some progress has been made on that front. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Sun Aug 16, 2009 6:02 am Post subject: |
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| Lucky you, being in South Korea. I'm in America and it's Sunday, so I can't legally buy alcohol today. |
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| Sounds like fascism to me. |
Sounds like it's time for another Whiskey Rebellion or Conch Republic or some other alcohol fueled finger in the eye of the powers that be. Count me in!
Ahhh the gold old days when people would stand up for the big things in life. |
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