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Ilsanman
Joined: 15 Aug 2003
Location: Bucheon, Korea
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 Posted: Sun Aug 16, 2009 1:38 am Post subject: |
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Smoking in a no-smoking area may not be all that serious, but with lack of any kind of punishment, people do whatever they want. People here don't respect the police at all, and I see why. The police don't command respect or obedience.
As far as crime here, you don't see a lot thanks to your Y chromosome.
The Sea of japan is our business because it's our maps. Let them do whatever they want in their language. You totally missed the point on that one.
The worst thing that could happen to Korea's politicans is Japan ceding Takeshima to them. They wouldn't be able to deflect blame for everything onto Japan anymore.
There are a few Koreans in Ivy League schools, but for the most part, Koreans wouldn't do well. Western ways require more creativity, logical thinking, independence, and don't tolerate things like plagiarism, which is widespread here.
So other than your complete rubbish of paragraph 1 and 2 in your post, I agree with you.
| Steelrails wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Don't you see aboput 247478347834 crimes everyday, and not one of them are punished? How about every ajosshi smoking right next to a no-smoking sign, and he doesn't fear punishment at all? |
Oh please. Rampant crime in Korea? From Smokers? First off no one obeys public no smoking signs anywhere. Just ask any teenager. No I don't see rampant crime everyday, in fact I hardly see crime at all. I do see civil ordinance violations sometimes, but those aren't crimes. There are no 'no-go zones' in my Korean city, unlike my American one. What about the murder rate in every major American city? Good Grief. I don't say America has rampant crime because of jaywalkers or drunks, it has rampant crime because an average of one person a day is gunned down in Detroit/Baltimore/Milwaukee/St. Louis/Oakland/Atlanta/etc.
Are you seriously trying to tell us that Korea is dangerous from a crime standpoint? Dude say that in public and watch the people laugh at you. I mean sure it might be the same as Canada or worse, but it's far closer to Canada's order than America's anarchy. I mean good grief the pizza place I used to work at was robbed at gun/knifepoint approx. 5 times in a 3 year span plus several burglaries.
Ya'll here this- this man is calling Korea DANGEROUS  There was this place called Detroit about 25 min. where I lived- go spend a week there and you'll come running back to Korea. Your kids are safe to go out and play in Korea. Would you let your kids out to play in the Cass Corridor? Would you even live there? Korean Crime- please.
Other than this complete rubbish of a point I completely agree with 1 & 2.
People are pardoned everywhere for whatever reason. Remember all the Bush and Clinton pardon scandals? Of course its corrupt and it probably is more so in Korea. I sorta agree here, in the end, no reason mass-muderers should be pardoned.
As for the Sea of Japan it also isn't any of our business. This is an issue between the Koreans, the Japanese, the Chinese, and the Russians. It is their region so they should have most of the say over how it is named. Of course, Korea would come out the loser in this in all likelihood so go ahead and try Sea-namers.
And yeah, I get tired of Dokdo too, you are right, let them have it, whatever. Methinkgs the strategy on this is to weary the Japanese until they get distracted by more important things and let Korea have its rock.
| Quote: |
| Koreans wouldn't do well in a western style education system. |
Right because there is a total lack of Koreans at Ivy Leagues and top unis and heading up the top of the lists in American H.S.  |
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winterfall
Joined: 21 May 2009
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| Posted: Sun Aug 16, 2009 2:51 am Post subject: |
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| E_athlete wrote: |
| you can sum up everything that is wrong in Korea in one word - tribalism |
That seems a bit derragatory.
As a gyopo. I can only reach out to my immediate family. Cousin's, things like that. No different from America. Even though most of my extended family (2nd to 3rd parts away, like cousin's wife's family have been extroadinarily sucessful) I can't tap into that.
Though to be fair. What you said is true, depending on the degree. I'm a member of the branch family. So I don't have the Right to reach out to the main line. If I were part of the main line, then I could work that network to my heart's content.
| frankly speaking wrote: |
"For most of the major Western countries. England and the US have never experienced Colonialism"
Winterfall, Where did you study History?
True that for many people living today in those countries mentioned have had no experience feeling colonized.
You are forgetting Native Americans, forced colonization and pretty much exclusion and is the only race in America where it is still acceptable to have open prejudice against. You have never heard of a football team called the Washington NIg...., but it is OK to have the REDSKINS.
I actually agree with everything the OP posted. I try to understand and accept most things but there are a few things that you mentioned that I just hold my breath on.
Personally, I don't care about police or law enforcement, it is better in Korea than in Thailand. |
Fair enough. I meant the dominant, majority population. Derragatory team names is harmless compared to what they were doing until the 80's, there was a manatory child relocation program for Native Americans so they can be raised by a quote, unquote "American Family" to be raised with "American values".
| Ilsanman wrote: |
| Smoking in a no-smoking area may not be all that serious, but with lack of any kind of punishment, people do whatever they want. People here don't respect the police at all, and I see why. The police don't command respect or obedience. |
You should visit the Middle East. Swing by Jordan, Egypt, or Lebanon. In comparison, Korea is a heaven. Koreans generally respect certain no smoking areas: Subways, Subway Train, elevators, inside offices, airports, immigration lines.
The Mideast is a smoker's paradise. You can literally smoke anywhere you want even though there are No Smoking Signs everywhere. |
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E_athlete
Joined: 09 Jun 2009
Location: Korea sparkling
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| Posted: Sun Aug 16, 2009 3:09 am Post subject: |
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| winterfall wrote: |
| E_athlete wrote: |
| you can sum up everything that is wrong in Korea in one word - tribalism |
That seems a bit derragatory.
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it is what it is what it is.
That's not to say it doesn't exist in the West or to a lesser extent in Japan. There is even tribalism among Canadians & Americans. I just see it as very pronounced in S. Korea. |
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ytuque
Joined: 29 Jan 2008
Location: I drink therefore I am!
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| Posted: Sun Aug 16, 2009 3:15 am Post subject: |
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| kabrams wrote: |
My grandfather is Native American, and his skin is white, not red---not the color red that people use, especially the Cleveland Indians "mascot". |
If his skin was white, he was not Native American or he was only part. The indians in my extended family have light brown skin with a tinge of red. Of course they don't look like the Cleveland Indians mascot, Chief Wahoo, because Wahoo is a cartoon character. |
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Ilsanman
Joined: 15 Aug 2003
Location: Bucheon, Korea
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| Posted: Sun Aug 16, 2009 3:53 am Post subject: |
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For lawlessness, I am sure there are a lot worse places. But let's stay on topic.
BTW, I have seen Koreans smoking in elevators, hospitals, even in a subway train (just once).
| winterfall wrote: |
| E_athlete wrote: |
| you can sum up everything that is wrong in Korea in one word - tribalism |
That seems a bit derragatory.
As a gyopo. I can only reach out to my immediate family. Cousin's, things like that. No different from America. Even though most of my extended family (2nd to 3rd parts away, like cousin's wife's family have been extroadinarily sucessful) I can't tap into that.
Though to be fair. What you said is true, depending on the degree. I'm a member of the branch family. So I don't have the Right to reach out to the main line. If I were part of the main line, then I could work that network to my heart's content.
| frankly speaking wrote: |
"For most of the major Western countries. England and the US have never experienced Colonialism"
Winterfall, Where did you study History?
True that for many people living today in those countries mentioned have had no experience feeling colonized.
You are forgetting Native Americans, forced colonization and pretty much exclusion and is the only race in America where it is still acceptable to have open prejudice against. You have never heard of a football team called the Washington NIg...., but it is OK to have the REDSKINS.
I actually agree with everything the OP posted. I try to understand and accept most things but there are a few things that you mentioned that I just hold my breath on.
Personally, I don't care about police or law enforcement, it is better in Korea than in Thailand. |
Fair enough. I meant the dominant, majority population. Derragatory team names is harmless compared to what they were doing until the 80's, there was a manatory child relocation program for Native Americans so they can be raised by a quote, unquote "American Family" to be raised with "American values".
| Ilsanman wrote: |
| Smoking in a no-smoking area may not be all that serious, but with lack of any kind of punishment, people do whatever they want. People here don't respect the police at all, and I see why. The police don't command respect or obedience. |
You should visit the Middle East. Swing by Jordan, Egypt, or Lebanon. In comparison, Korea is a heaven. Koreans generally respect certain no smoking areas: Subways, Subway Train, elevators, inside offices, airports, immigration lines.
The Mideast is a smoker's paradise. You can literally smoke anywhere you want even though there are No Smoking Signs everywhere. |
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DCJames
Joined: 27 Jul 2006
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| Posted: Sun Aug 16, 2009 3:57 am Post subject: |
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The biggest peeve of mine is when someone clearly sees you waiting in line and walks right in front of you.  |
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tremendous
Joined: 12 Aug 2009
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| Posted: Sun Aug 16, 2009 4:20 am Post subject: |
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| There is a big lack of discipline, or too much freedom here. Just look at how people can't stay between the white lines of their lane when driving. Driving home today, I had to drive through a group of about 30 young guys who were walking in the street blocking the entire street rather than using the wide very new sidewalks on either side. Twice in the past 3 days, I've had a car in the next lane, try to change lanes and drive right into my side door. Despite having a trillion mirrors in their car, they can't be bothered to look. It's one thing to cut someone off (which happens every couple minutes) but when you are literally driving into the side of another car, there is something wrong. And then the big thing is that mistakes are so tolerated here. They can almost kill me, and then just carry on with their day in la-la land. This is really the thing that troubles me. There are so many mistakes made, but no reprecussions. And no admittance of the mistake. Just look straight forward and pretend it never happened. Generally speaking, Koreans are quite sloppy in their behavior. |
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E_athlete
Joined: 09 Jun 2009
Location: Korea sparkling
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| Posted: Sun Aug 16, 2009 4:25 am Post subject: |
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| DCJames wrote: |
| The biggest peeve of mine is when someone clearly sees you waiting in line and walks right in front of you. |
that's why I love the places with tickets. I was at the post office got a ticket then waited in queue. I then see some women DASH in front of me only to figure out that the place operates on tickets. The owned look on her face is priceless! |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Sun Aug 16, 2009 5:59 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| Smoking in a no-smoking area may not be all that serious, but with lack of any kind of punishment, people do whatever they want. People here don't respect the police at all, and I see why. The police don't command respect or obedience. |
Koreans disrespect of the law manifests itself in traffic violations, littering, smoking, and spitting. And yes, the cops here are easily bribed and Korrupt.
American disrespect of the law manifests itself in shootings, shankings, and robberies. And yes, the cops in America are corrupt as well. (Prison drugs anyone?)
Sorry but when it comes to taking about crime, it seems too many of us have dealt with real crime to have any complaints about Korean law-breaking.
| Quote: |
| The Sea of japan is our business because it's our maps. Let them do whatever they want in their language. You totally missed the point on that one. |
Fair enough. I see your point now.
| Quote: |
| The worst thing that could happen to Korea's politicans is Japan ceding Takeshima to them. They wouldn't be able to deflect blame for everything onto Japan anymore. |
Oh I'm sure they'd shift the blame to something else like Japanese food or cars or who knows what.
| Quote: |
| There are a few Koreans in Ivy League schools, but for the most part, Koreans wouldn't do well. Western ways require more creativity, logical thinking, independence, and don't tolerate things like plagiarism, which is widespread here. |
Those kids are ESL and they are finishing at the top of their classes in H.S. and going to prestigous colleges in flocks. What is the explanation for that? If it wasn't for the influx of 'eastern' (Korean, other FE Asian, Indian, Middle Eastern) kids America's national test scores wouldn't be anywhere near as rosy.
Let's not get started on college 'papers' these days. Korean or 'Western' (I hate that term- Western refers to music and film. Cowboys. Eastern- City Boys and New Yorkers.) All the papers are crap. Where is the creativity in having professors obsessed with citing sources and regurgitating someone else''s research? MLA/APA anal-retentiveness? Where is the independence in the agenda driven curriculum at universities? What about Death by Powerpoint? Cliff's Notes? Wikipedia? Plagarism- That's all rampant in America and Korea. Not to mention the low admission standards of mid-level universities. Koreas unis aren't any better, but America's have taken a nose-dive in terms of quality. Comparing the two is near-pointless now. It's not America or Korea, it's the latest generation in both.
At least the Korean kids I have seen have taken the work seriously because their lack of English level prevents the more sophisticated cheating that some of us do. They HAVE to read the stuff. They actually do do the work the way the teacher says. And say what you will, those kids would always show up for the group work. Not that plenty of non-Korean students didn't, but the Korean students knew they couldnt get away with not participating.
Also because of their lack of whatever, they also don't do things like stop going to class because they are too busy hitting the bong. I also noticed the Korean students were always into extra-curriculars like Dance, Engineering competitions, Art, Music, Computer-programming experiments, Yoga, etc. As opposed to me and my 'western' buddies who were off to raise Hell. I told myself the same things about the K-students and how they weren't as 'independent and creative' as me, now looking back, they had their heads on straighter than I did. Sure I have a broader taste in music, art, and can write well, AND run a beer pong table, but I see their experience as just as enriching now, maybe even more so.
Not only that but over here as well, there have been numerous student demonstrations and such that many people living here took part in. That to me does not sound like a lack of independence or critical thinking.
I agree that in a true sense that Korea needs to work on those things you mentioned. You are right, those are faults. But a better way to phrase things is that all of the world needs to work on those things. They may have a Korean key to them, but its the same tune all around the world.
Yes we know that thread is about Korea, but the problem is not unique to Korea, so it is a falacy to frame it as such, which I believe the post did do. At the same time it was an honest take on the place and nothing to get too worked up over, just something to look at in depth.
Like a lot of other people are saying, our home countries are NOT rosy these days. If it was why would so many Korea haters be here and not wherever? Not that Ilsanman is a Korea hater. Balanced article in general.
Talking from experience in dealing with K-students in the west, they weren't saints, but they took things a lot more seriously than the average bear or kyopo. |
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Ilsanman
Joined: 15 Aug 2003
Location: Bucheon, Korea
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| Posted: Sun Aug 16, 2009 6:26 am Post subject: |
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Your whole post, as well as DCJames' one comes down to the non-person thing. They don't know you. They don't give 2 shoots about you.
I don't drive here, but if I did, I bet it'd be on my list.
| tremendous wrote: |
| There is a big lack of discipline, or too much freedom here. Just look at how people can't stay between the white lines of their lane when driving. Driving home today, I had to drive through a group of about 30 young guys who were walking in the street blocking the entire street rather than using the wide very new sidewalks on either side. Twice in the past 3 days, I've had a car in the next lane, try to change lanes and drive right into my side door. Despite having a trillion mirrors in their car, they can't be bothered to look. It's one thing to cut someone off (which happens every couple minutes) but when you are literally driving into the side of another car, there is something wrong. And then the big thing is that mistakes are so tolerated here. They can almost kill me, and then just carry on with their day in la-la land. This is really the thing that troubles me. There are so many mistakes made, but no reprecussions. And no admittance of the mistake. Just look straight forward and pretend it never happened. Generally speaking, Koreans are quite sloppy in their behavior. |
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E_athlete
Joined: 09 Jun 2009
Location: Korea sparkling
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| Posted: Sun Aug 16, 2009 6:30 am Post subject: |
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| someone explain this non person stuff to me would ya? |
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Ilsanman
Joined: 15 Aug 2003
Location: Bucheon, Korea
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| Posted: Sun Aug 16, 2009 6:37 am Post subject: |
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Koreans don't smoke pot and other distractions due to restrictive laws against drugs. I applaud that, however. The pro-marijuana activists have some good points, but overall, it's just an unnecessary part of society.
I grew up in a medium-sized Canadian city that doesn't have many of the problems that you have listed. Likewise, I think the educational standards at my university were pretty good. I got 0 on a paper for not citing sources properly once. When I fixed it, she gave me the appropriate grade.
I don't even want to start on High School here. You show up. you pass. I said I understand their education system, but a few parts of it, I don't. That's just wrong.
I have not been involved in a K community overseas, I must admit, but I have been here a long time and met maybe 5,000 Koreans all from different walks of life. I have not seen what you are claiming. My adult students are mostly positive, nice people, but I don't agree with the way they live their lives. I don't criticize them, however.
Most of them have some good qualities that I envy for my country. A willingness to work hard, sacrifice, and all the while, smile a lot more than I used to. I moped around for days after my internet g/f broke up with me. Boo fricking hoo.
I find myself disappointed by them too, when they quit the conversation class and study only TOEIC to get ajob, or go overseas and complain that other country's food sucks and they missed Shin Ramyeon. After 5 days!!!
Thanks for giving me the credit of not hating it here. At times I would have told you I do, but I find myself feeling more balanced these days.
I must add one more to both of my lists. Something I understand, accept as wrong but inevitable.
6. Protest culture. Some of the protests have had good points, but more often than not, blown out of proportion by the media. I feel sad when I hear from one of my intelligent students that US beef is unsafe and Lee is the worst president they've ever had.
Also, the part where people attacked the police, I will never accept that as acceptable behaviour. You reap what you sow, and any protester who got hurt deserved it. Where I come from, you NEVER put your hands on a cop, and if you do, be prepared to get beaten up and thrown in the slammer.
| Steelrails wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Smoking in a no-smoking area may not be all that serious, but with lack of any kind of punishment, people do whatever they want. People here don't respect the police at all, and I see why. The police don't command respect or obedience. |
Koreans disrespect of the law manifests itself in traffic violations, littering, smoking, and spitting. And yes, the cops here are easily bribed and Korrupt.
American disrespect of the law manifests itself in shootings, shankings, and robberies. And yes, the cops in America are corrupt as well. (Prison drugs anyone?)
Sorry but when it comes to taking about crime, it seems too many of us have dealt with real crime to have any complaints about Korean law-breaking.
| Quote: |
| The Sea of japan is our business because it's our maps. Let them do whatever they want in their language. You totally missed the point on that one. |
Fair enough. I see your point now.
| Quote: |
| The worst thing that could happen to Korea's politicans is Japan ceding Takeshima to them. They wouldn't be able to deflect blame for everything onto Japan anymore. |
Oh I'm sure they'd shift the blame to something else like Japanese food or cars or who knows what.
| Quote: |
| There are a few Koreans in Ivy League schools, but for the most part, Koreans wouldn't do well. Western ways require more creativity, logical thinking, independence, and don't tolerate things like plagiarism, which is widespread here. |
Those kids are ESL and they are finishing at the top of their classes in H.S. and going to prestigous colleges in flocks. What is the explanation for that? If it wasn't for the influx of 'eastern' (Korean, other FE Asian, Indian, Middle Eastern) kids America's national test scores wouldn't be anywhere near as rosy.
Let's not get started on college 'papers' these days. Korean or 'Western' (I hate that term- Western refers to music and film. Cowboys. Eastern- City Boys and New Yorkers.) All the papers are crap. Where is the creativity in having professors obsessed with citing sources and regurgitating someone else''s research? MLA/APA anal-retentiveness? Where is the independence in the agenda driven curriculum at universities? What about Death by Powerpoint? Cliff's Notes? Wikipedia? Plagarism- That's all rampant in America and Korea. Not to mention the low admission standards of mid-level universities. Koreas unis aren't any better, but America's have taken a nose-dive in terms of quality. Comparing the two is near-pointless now. It's not America or Korea, it's the latest generation in both.
At least the Korean kids I have seen have taken the work seriously because their lack of English level prevents the more sophisticated cheating that some of us do. They HAVE to read the stuff. They actually do do the work the way the teacher says. And say what you will, those kids would always show up for the group work. Not that plenty of non-Korean students didn't, but the Korean students knew they couldnt get away with not participating.
Also because of their lack of whatever, they also don't do things like stop going to class because they are too busy hitting the bong. I also noticed the Korean students were always into extra-curriculars like Dance, Engineering competitions, Art, Music, Computer-programming experiments, Yoga, etc. As opposed to me and my 'western' buddies who were off to raise Hell. I told myself the same things about the K-students and how they weren't as 'independent and creative' as me, now looking back, they had their heads on straighter than I did. Sure I have a broader taste in music, art, and can write well, AND run a beer pong table, but I see their experience as just as enriching now, maybe even more so.
Not only that but over here as well, there have been numerous student demonstrations and such that many people living here took part in. That to me does not sound like a lack of independence or critical thinking.
I agree that in a true sense that Korea needs to work on those things you mentioned. You are right, those are faults. But a better way to phrase things is that all of the world needs to work on those things. They may have a Korean key to them, but its the same tune all around the world.
Yes we know that thread is about Korea, but the problem is not unique to Korea, so it is a falacy to frame it as such, which I believe the post did do. At the same time it was an honest take on the place and nothing to get too worked up over, just something to look at in depth.
Like a lot of other people are saying, our home countries are NOT rosy these days. If it was why would so many Korea haters be here and not wherever? Not that Ilsanman is a Korea hater. Balanced article in general.
Talking from experience in dealing with K-students in the west, they weren't saints, but they took things a lot more seriously than the average bear or kyopo. |
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tremendous
Joined: 12 Aug 2009
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sharkey
Joined: 12 Oct 2008
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| Posted: Sun Aug 16, 2009 7:24 am Post subject: Re: Accepted/Unaccepted Culture |
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| winterfall wrote: |
For most of the major Western countries. England and the US have never experienced Colonialism. So it's difficult to relate. |
lol wow |
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Smee
Joined: 24 Dec 2004
Location: Jeollanam-do
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| Posted: Sun Aug 16, 2009 7:29 am Post subject: |
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| DCJames wrote: |
| The biggest peeve of mine is when someone clearly sees you waiting in line and walks right in front of you. |
Christ, this happened twice in one day recently, and it's a good thing I'm small or else I'd hurt somebody. There's a taxi line in front of Gwangju Bus Terminal that starts at the curb and extends back to the terminal. It's badly organized, I'll grant, but I'm standing at the curb like everyone else, and some woman just hops in front of everyone to get in the cab. I hate to sink to their level, but I had to run and cut her off at the door. It felt childish, but good. Same thing for the bus. The line starts at the door, so what did two guys do? Naturally, they just stood in front of the door.
And, as often happens, there will be a line and somebody will come along and glance up and down the line. Then they'll decide right in front of me is a good place to cut in. |
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