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'This is a Muslim district'
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Butterfly

Joined: 02 Mar 2003
Location: Kuwait

Posted: Sat Aug 22, 2009 5:27 am Post subject:

mises wrote:

The EU is a big place. France, for example, will be 50% muslim by 2020, even if all immigration were to stop today, according to Sam Harris. Some areas like Greece or Finland have very small populations. It isn't really useful to think of the whole of the EU. Italy will absolutely give them the boot and pick a Japan style demographic decline. I suspect Denmark might do the same (they're most at risk of a race war, as Dane biker gangs have declared war on "immigrant" youth gangs http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5huNki6C0X-VOpxtP6gezf0rqebow ). The EU isn't really a useful way of looking at the differing nations.

Biker gangs attacking muslim gangs, how hand-wringingly marvellous.

You clearly didn't read the article I posted.

Newsweek wrote:

For the number of Muslims to outnumber non-Muslims by midcentury, it would require either breeding on a scale rarely seen in history or for immigration to continue at a pace that's now politically unacceptable. More likely, new controls will slow Muslim immigration. The birthrate for Muslim immigrants is also likely to continue to decline, as it has tended to do, with greater affluence and better health care. There is no Europewide data available, but one study says fertility rates among Turkish-born women in the Netherlands fell from 3.2 in 1990 to 1.9 in 2005, barely above the figure for native-born Dutch. Over the same period, the equivalent figure for Moroccan-born women in the Netherlands dropped from 4.9 to 2.9. Also, fertility rates are edging upward in some Northern European countries, which would offset some of the Muslim growth. Bottom line: given the number of variables, demographers are loath to make predictions about the number of Muslims in Europe in the years to come. "You would almost have to make it up," says Carl Haub, the senior demographer at the Population Reference Bureau in Washington. And the idea of a Muslim majority any time soon? "Absolutely absurd."

Quote:

It isn't a myth. The muslim population in the UK is growing 10x faster than the native population. Plug that into excel and expand over 20 years. Native birthrates are 1.1 for Spain, 1.3 for Italy, 1.8 for France and so on. The immigration alone demands a massive demographic shift, given the decline of the natives.

Again, the article addresses this.

Quote:

You might not like that us non-Europeans discuss the colonization but that doesn't mean it isn't happening. It has serious implications for relations between western states and for the global economy. At some point, we have to discuss denuclearizing France as well. We can't just hope that an Algerian dominated muslim majority France will be as responsible with her nukes as has a French majority post-christian France.

Well, you are of course free to discuss this topic but don't expect you and your kind to be taken seriously when you clearly have an agenda - you are not the first, presumably American, i have heard ranting about 'Eurabia'; a lovely little catchphrase for conservative American Islamophobes with an anti-European mindset. It's not that we Europeans don't have a few issues to address, we certainly do, its just that we're not going to take any notice of you and your kind. Your comments aren't helpful, but then I don't suppose you want them to be.

mises wrote:

What does a gay dude in Riyadh do? Move to Jeddah?

Riyadh is paradise for gay men.

Butterfly

Joined: 02 Mar 2003
Location: Kuwait

Posted: Sat Aug 22, 2009 5:44 am Post subject:

Kuros wrote:

Butterfly wrote:

I am currently working and studying in Libya

Welcome back, Butterfly!

A lot of the nutjobs have left the forum, but I think you'll detect a subtle rightward shift among the posters here (nothing intrinsically good or bad about that shift).

As it is, I think mises has a point, but I'm not convinced we'll see Eurabia.

Thank you Kuros - its been a couple of years, not sure how long I will stay but now I've entered the lion's den so to speak and found all number of engaging, open minded and egalitarian muslims, I'm keen to look into this topic further.

On the other hand

Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue

Posted: Sat Aug 22, 2009 6:59 am Post subject:

I join Kuros in welcoming Butterfly back to the forum for what I'm hoping will be a long stay.

One slight correction...

Quote:

you are not the first, presumably American, i have heard ranting about 'Eurabia'; a lovely little catchphrase for conservative American Islamophobes with an anti-European mindset.

Mises is Canadian, from the same region as me. And, for the record, he can also be a harsh critic of American society and politics, especially in regards to foreign-policy. He's actually been one of the more outspoken opponents of the War and Terror and the Iraq War.

Quote:

I think mises has a point, but I'm not convinced we'll see Eurabia.

Neither am I. These things have a way of sorting themselves out over time, in my experience. I do think it's unlikely that we'll ever see a long term alliance between Muslims and the Left, such as is hoped for by some leftists and feared by some conservatives. I think there is currently a distorting effect of western foreign-policy, which has made somewhat strange bedfellows of Muslims and progressives. From everything else I've seen, most Muslims would have more in common with social conservatives than with leftists.

Butterfly wrote:

Quote:

Riyadh is paradise for gay men.

Well you know, Korea is probably a paradise of sorts for gay men. Even down here in a provincial town like Gwangju, there's at least one gay bathhouse, a couple of gay bars, and I know I'm pretty sure I've observed cruising at the local park. Plus, homosexuality remains off the law books. However, that's not quite the same thing as saying that a gay guy could come out and acknowledge his homosexuality. Most Koreans I've spoken to tell me that they have never met anyone who claimed to be gay(back in my redneck hometown, most people I know would admit to knowing gay people, even the rednecks.)

(slight grammar edit)

Last edited by On the other hand on Sat Aug 22, 2009 12:46 pm; edited 1 time in total

bacasper

Joined: 26 Mar 2007

Posted: Sat Aug 22, 2009 9:03 am Post subject:

Butterfly wrote:

Riyadh is paradise for gay men.

Despite the death penalty for it?

mises

Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired

Posted: Sat Aug 22, 2009 9:22 am Post subject:

bacasper wrote:

Butterfly wrote:

Riyadh is paradise for gay men.

Despite the death penalty for it?

Yeah, I just stopped taking the poster serious at that. Sure, they have the 'men are for fun, women are for babies' thing going on. But to be in an open homosexual relationship? I really don't know what to say.

On the other hand

Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue

Posted: Sat Aug 22, 2009 9:31 am Post subject:

bacasper wrote:

Butterfly wrote:

Riyadh is paradise for gay men.

Despite the death penalty for it?

I don't know much about Riyadh, but I do know that, in a lot of places, there is a distinction to be made between what is offically illegal, and what the authorities are willling to tolerate, as long as it isn't practiced too blatantly.

Most places where homosexuality has been illegal probably had fairly active gay undergrounds, which the police turned a blind eye to as long as the bars and the bath-houses paid the right bribes and didn't put up signs openly advertising the nature of their establishment. When the bars don't pay the bribes, or the neighbourhood busybodies start to complain, the authorities might conduct a raid.

But obviously, yes, the death penalty for homosexuality is a barbarism, no matter how often the law is actually enforced.

Butterfly

Joined: 02 Mar 2003
Location: Kuwait

Posted: Sat Aug 22, 2009 11:40 am Post subject:

On the other hand wrote:

bacasper wrote:

Butterfly wrote:

Riyadh is paradise for gay men.

Despite the death penalty for it?

Well, sure - i was only joking really, even though it seems to be the hottest place to go for gay teachers in our industry, i know several whom i have worked with who have been there for years. Anyway, i wasn't making a serious point.

mises wrote:

Yeah, I just stopped taking the poster serious at that.

Thats a pretty feeble way to escape addressing the points i have raised with you.

On the other hand

Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue

Posted: Sat Aug 22, 2009 12:01 pm Post subject:

Quote:

Well, sure - i was only joking really, even though it seems to be the hottest place to go for gay teachers in our industry, i know several whom i have worked with who have been there for years.

Would you happen to know if it's possible for these gay teachers to live a basically full sex life without running afoul of the authorities? And what about for the native inhabitants?

mises

Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired

Posted: Sat Aug 22, 2009 12:37 pm Post subject:

Butterfly wrote:

Thats a pretty feeble way to escape addressing the points i have raised with you.

You've just linked to a single article, twice, which I responded to already. Then you burned on down to pejoratives. That's not "raising points". That's an attempt to force a discussion to an end. However, you people have blown your hand now. You've called every dissenting view a name for so long that the words no long have any meaning.

Quote:

conservative American Islamophobes with an anti-European mindset

I'm sorry. This isn't "raising points".

bigverne

Joined: 12 May 2004

Posted: Sat Aug 22, 2009 1:25 pm Post subject:

Quote:

Muslims make up roughly 5% of Europe's population.

As already stated, what exactly is the percentage for those under 25 in Western Europe? I would guess it is much higher than that, and I would suspect most people are very uneasy about that, for good reason. The muslim population in Western Europe is likely to continue to grow in the next decades producing the problems we have all become accustomed to; ghettoisation, threats to free speech, honour killings, terrorism, and anti-female and anti-gay violence. The minarets will continue to go up in European cities, Malmo and Bradford will increasingly resemble Istanbul and Karachi, and some will continue to preach how 'wonderful' such 'diversity' is, despite the mounting evidence of what a disaster this social experiment has become.

Butterfly

Joined: 02 Mar 2003
Location: Kuwait

Posted: Sat Aug 22, 2009 2:11 pm Post subject:

mises wrote:

You've just linked to a single article, twice, which I responded to already.

Actually no you haven�t, because you said:

mises wrote:

France, for example, will be 50% muslim by 2020

mises wrote:

The muslim population in the UK is growing 10x faster than the native population

And the article says:

Newsweek wrote:

it's all speculation based on speculation�and even if it's accurate, it would still mean the number of Muslims will represent just 8 percent of the European population, estimated by the EU to be 470 million in 2025

Newsweek wrote:

You would almost have to make it up," says Carl Haub, the senior demographer at the Population Reference Bureau in Washington. And the idea of a Muslim majority any time soon? "Absolutely absurd."

bigverne

Joined: 12 May 2004

Posted: Sat Aug 22, 2009 2:25 pm Post subject:

Quote:

it would still mean the number of Muslims will represent just 8 percent of the European population

Which means that in countries such as the UK, Holland and France that percentage will be even higher. Roll on 2025! Who knows what cultural delights await...

Butterfly

Joined: 02 Mar 2003
Location: Kuwait

Posted: Sat Aug 22, 2009 2:27 pm Post subject:

On the other hand wrote:

Quote:

Well, sure - i was only joking really, even though it seems to be the hottest place to go for gay teachers in our industry, i know several whom i have worked with who have been there for years.

Would you happen to know if it's possible for these gay teachers to live a basically full sex life without running afoul of the authorities? And what about for the native inhabitants?

I would presume so, and indeed why not? The trainers that i am working with at the moment work between Saudi, Kuwait and here - i'm not claiming to know, just passing on what they told me this afternoon after i asked them with this discussion in mind. Kuwait seems to have completely left the dark influence of Saudi Arabia nowadays and is very westernized, and apparently has quite a lot of openly gay people. This is what my colleague told me, for what its worth.

Saudi Arabia is of course a different story, the idea of being openly gay there is unthinkable but of course, no contact whatsoever is permitted with women from outside the family group, yet men stay in hotel and dorm rooms together, visit each other etc My colleague told me he is fairly regularly propositioned by men and has actually stopped going to public cafes as a result.

The teachers that I used to work with over ten years ago are still there, and if what my colleague says is true, then why indeed not. It's pretty much an accepted joke in EFL in my home town that gay guys go to work in the Saudi and love it there, while straight guys tough it out for as long as they can for the cash and get the f out. Makes sense to me.

mises

Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired

Posted: Sat Aug 22, 2009 2:28 pm Post subject:

Quote:

The Muslim population in Britain has grown by more than 500,000 to 2.4 million in just four years, according to official research collated for The Times.

The population multiplied 10 times faster than the rest of society, the research by the Office for National Statistics reveals. In the same period the number of Christians in the country fell by more than 2 million.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article5621482.ece

Quote:

France is facing the problem that dare not speak its name. Though French law prohibits the census from any reference to ethnic background or religion, many demographers estimate that as much as 20-30 per cent of the population under 25 is now Muslim. The streets, the traditional haunt of younger people, now belong to Muslim youths. In France, the phrase "les jeunes" is a politically correct way of referring to young Muslims.

Given current birth rates, it is not impossible that in 25 years France will have a Muslim majority. The consequences are dynamic: is it possible that secular France might become an Islamic state?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/personal-view/3601901/Is-France-on-the-way-to-becoming-an-Islamic-state.html

Quote:

Given current birthrates, France could be a majority Muslim country in 25 years, and that is if immigration were to stop tomorrow.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/11373689/The-Reality-of-Islam-Sam-Harris-Secure

So I was reciting Harris from memory. 2030 or so, not 2020.

Even if it is true that muslim birthrates collapse in the second generation, the influx via immigration ensures that one group will grow and the other not. In the US, these simple mathematical equations aren't hidden. We all know that the US will become majority-minority at around 2050. Hispanics just aren't a troublesome group and there is little reason for leftists to insist on dishonesty. Why are we supposed to believe that math ends upon hitting European shores? If Mexico were emptying into Marseille and Malmo and not Algeria and Somalia, I seriously doubt the demographic impact would be hidden from public debate.

Again, if you're looking at the entirety of the EU the numbers aren't scary. Slovakia will be fine. Finland, Czech, Greece and others too. France, as the Koreans say, not so much. Some states won't suffer the fall and others will. Best to look at specific nations rather than hiding country specific trends with aggregate data.

Sergio Stefanuto

Joined: 14 May 2009
Location: UK

Posted: Sat Aug 22, 2009 5:14 pm Post subject:

Butterfly wrote:

a lovely little catchphrase for conservative American Islamophobes with an anti-European mindset

If the likes of you were around in the 1930s, you'd have called Churchill a Naziphobe with an anti-German mindset

Butterfly wrote:

I've .... found all number of engaging, open minded and egalitarian muslims

So cute.

The vast majority of smokers don't get lung cancer
Therefore it's a mistake to criticize smoking as the cause of lung cancer
Why even investigate the possibility?

The vast majority of Muslims are perfectly decent people
Therefore it's in error to fear Islam as the direct cause of a horrendous amount of violence

Many supporters of communism were really nice people
It's a mistake, in consequence, to criticize communism

Let's see if you can answer this without being laugh-out-loud funny

On The Other Hand wrote:

I think there is currently a distorting effect of western foreign-policy, which has made somewhat strange bedfellows of Muslims and progressives

Probably in the case of moderates. Many leftist icons however - Pilger, Chomsky - are just Bolsheviks high on working class revolutionary utopianism. Islamic fascists are a natural, dogmatic, anti-capitalist ally. Only via radical Islam's help can the leftist utopia be realized. Muslim extremists are prepared to kill - and kill big willy style - and this goes down excellently with leftists (violent overthrow at any cost). An Islamic flavor to the paradise certainly wasn't prophesized in the holy scriptures of the Communist Manifesto, but it's a very small price to pay in comparison with the reward of overthrowing the Evil Empire and redistributing wealth in accordance with the Prophet Marx, Peace Be Upon Him.

Crucially, in both leftist and Muslim extremists' eyes, capitalists, Americans and Jews are unbelieving infidels fit only to be put to a machine gun.

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