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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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 Posted: Sun Aug 23, 2009 10:43 pm Post subject: |
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Socialism? What are you talking about?
Your version of "democracy" is clear enough. It coincides with that illustrated by those students who occupied New York University several months ago. "Democratic process," "Macbook and a power cord," "corporate water," etc. "Should we present identification to the police? Let us debate the question..." Nonsense. Someday you will grow up; time is on my side and working against you on this, Visitorq. |
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visitorq
Joined: 11 Jan 2008
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| Posted: Mon Aug 24, 2009 12:02 am Post subject: |
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| Fox wrote: |
| visitorq wrote: |
| Most laws passed by the government are taxes or restictions on freedom. Less government is the way to go. |
Depends on the freedoms being restricted. There are a lot of things I simply don't want people to be free to do, especially if they come with consequences for me.
What exactly do you want the freedom to do that you lack right now? |
Do I need to make a list?? Off the cuff, not having to pay income tax to the scum bag usurers at the Fed would be nice. Not having to have my purchasing power destroyed by Fed and government caused inflation (printing off trillions more of their un-backed FRAUD notes every month) is another. Not being forced to take killer flu vaccines is another. Privacy guaranteed under the constitution is another. Basically the list goes on and on.
What I really want is to be left the hell alone. I despise the government for what it has become: a pack of thieving, corrupt criminals working with the banks to squeeze every last drop out of us, while ushering in their police state to keep us down. Only difference is I'm not deluded like others on here are, into thinking my government loves me... |
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visitorq
Joined: 11 Jan 2008
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| Posted: Mon Aug 24, 2009 12:09 am Post subject: |
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| Gopher wrote: |
Socialism? What are you talking about?
Your version of "democracy" is clear enough. It coincides with that illustrated by those students who occupied New York University several months ago. "Democratic process," "Macbook and a power cord," "corporate water," etc. "Should we present identification to the police? Let us debate the question..." Nonsense. Someday you will grow up; time is on my side and working against you on this, Visitorq. |
Ok, so aside from the fact that you know nothing about me personally and are basing this description on things I've never said or advocated on here, do you have anything to add?
Saying time is on your side is total nonsense; it literally means nothing. The USA was founded on the values I espouse, not on yours. You need to define your terms. What you are espousing is literally socialism, by definition. I'm suggesting that the constitution exists to protect our personal liberty first and foremost, and that big, centralized government, the Federal Reserve, militarism, high taxes, corporate welfare, and the police state are all tantamount to socialism, and altogether contrary to the spirit our country was founded on.
Time is not on your side. Eventually the public will not stand for the crimes the government and the bankers are perpetrating on them (even you will change your tune when things get bad enough, and they will) and will revalue the way we want our country to be. Things cannot keep on as they are, the current state of affairs is growing to be intolerable, and people are starting to wake up (some more quickly than others)... |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Mon Aug 24, 2009 12:18 am Post subject: |
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| visitorq wrote: |
| Do I need to make a list?? Off the cuff, not having to pay income tax to the scum bag usurers at the Fed would be nice. |
All right, that's one: you want the freedom to keep 100% of your income.
| visitorq wrote: |
| Not having to have my purchasing power destroyed by Fed and government caused inflation (printing off trillions more of their un-backed FRAUD notes every month) is another. |
Not a freedom issue, especially since no one forces you to use United States currency.
| visitorq wrote: |
| Not being forced to take killer flu vaccines is another. |
No one's forcing anyone to do this. The government is clearly PROMOTING it, but I've yet to see anyone forced to take it against their will. Not a freedom issue.
| visitorq wrote: |
| Privacy guaranteed under the constitution is another. |
Perhaps reasonable, but not a freedom issue.
| visitorq wrote: |
| Basically the list goes on and on. |
So far you've mentioned one thing that is really about "our freedoms," and a lot of things you simply don't like, most of which are totally avoidable if you want.
| visitorq wrote: |
| What I really want is to be left the hell alone. |
There are many places in the world you could go and essentially be "left the Hell alone." Unless what you're saying is you want all the benefits of living in a governed region of the world but none of the draw backs?
You're pretty free, to be honest. No one's making you play the society game. No one's making you keep your wealth in the form of U.S. currency, or even forcing you to accept only U.S. currency as payment for services rendered. No one's even forcing you to live in the United States. If you want to be "left the Hell alone," you can have that. You just can't have that and have all the benefits of civilization; the two are incompatible.
| visitorq wrote: |
| Only difference is I'm not deluded like others on here are, into thinking my government loves me... |
Abolishing -- or even heavily limiting -- government would in no way solve the problems you're describing, because they don't originate with government, but rather with people themselves. Create your ideal Libertarian society tomorrow, and it won't be long before everything ends up the way it is again. That's why Libertarianism is such an irrational philosophy: it ignores the fact that things are the way they are for a reason, and ignores the fact that it's idealized solution is no solution at all if the solution doesn't stick. Libertarianism has no staying power.
I understand how you feel, but as long as you remain as extremist as you currently are, you'll never be able to work towards a constructive solution. |
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visitorq
Joined: 11 Jan 2008
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| Posted: Mon Aug 24, 2009 12:42 am Post subject: |
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| Fox wrote: |
| visitorq wrote: |
| Do I need to make a list?? Off the cuff, not having to pay income tax to the scum bag usurers at the Fed would be nice. |
All right, that's one: you want the freedom to keep 100% of your income. |
I don't mind paying some taxes, but NOT to the mother of all parasites the Fed. That institution is a criminal racket, plain and simple and I resent having to pay them a single cent. In fact I resent the fact that I can't spend a single cent without it having come from them in the first place.
| Quote: |
| visitorq wrote: |
| Not having to have my purchasing power destroyed by Fed and government caused inflation (printing off trillions more of their un-backed FRAUD notes every month) is another. |
Not a freedom issue, especially since no one forces you to use United States currency. |
What are you talking about?? Of course I'm forced to use it - it's ILLEGAL to use other currencies in the US. It's called legal tender laws. Didn't anybody tell you? Not long ago it was even illegal to own gold. The Fed owns you, you have no choice but to comply (or leave the country)...
| Quote: |
| visitorq wrote: |
| Not being forced to take killer flu vaccines is another. |
No one's forcing anyone to do this. The government is clearly PROMOTING it, but I've yet to see anyone forced to take it against their will. Not a freedom issue. |
Again, you have no idea what's going on... they are now currently planning to make the swine flu shots mandatory for everyone. Weren't aware of that either? You'd better get with the program, or you might be caught unawares... (the vaccine is much more deadly than the flu itself, the last time people were vaccinated against swine flu in the 70's, more people died from the vaccine itself than the flu).
| Quote: |
| visitorq wrote: |
| Privacy guaranteed under the constitution is another. |
Perhaps reasonable, but not a freedom issue. |
LOL. Think before you write man...
| Quote: |
| visitorq wrote: |
| Basically the list goes on and on. |
So far you've mentioned one thing that is really about "our freedoms," and a lot of things you simply don't like, most of which are totally avoidable if you want. |
I'll give you a chance to amend this silly statement...
| Quote: |
| visitorq wrote: |
| What I really want is to be left the hell alone. |
There are many places in the world you could go and essentially be "left the Hell alone." Unless what you're saying is you want all the benefits of living in a governed region of the world but none of the draw backs?
You're pretty free, to be honest. No one's making you play the society game. No one's making you keep your wealth in the form of U.S. currency, or even forcing you to accept only U.S. currency as payment for services rendered. No one's even forcing you to live in the United States. If you want to be "left the Hell alone," you can have that. You just can't have that and have all the benefits of civilization; the two are incompatible.
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Right, so your solution is that I stop being an American, and leave my country forever? Gee, that's really helpful, tthanks for your sage-like advice 
| Quote: |
| visitorq wrote: |
| Only difference is I'm not deluded like others on here are, into thinking my government loves me... |
Abolishing -- or even heavily limiting -- government would in no way solve the problems you're describing, because they don't originate with government, but rather with people themselves. Create your ideal Libertarian society tomorrow, and it won't be long before everything ends up the way it is again. That's why Libertarianism is such an irrational philosophy: it ignores the fact that things are the way they are for a reason, and ignores the fact that it's idealized solution is no solution at all if the solution doesn't stick. Libertarianism has no staying power.
I understand how you feel, but as long as you remain as extremist as you currently are, you'll never be able to work towards a constructive solution. |
You offer no solution yourself. Yours is to let corruption reign, because, "hey, it's not that bad"...
As for your assertion that these problems don't originate with government, that's just the most absurd and disingenuous thing you've written. If you stop and think, you will find that they ALL come from government. The job of our government is to uphold the constitution - that is its sole purpose. Instead what we have is an open sewer of corruption, with the government working with the banks, hand in hand, against the people. We are perfectly entitled to kick these criminals to the curb and re-assert our Constitutional rights.
I understand no government will ever be perfect, but as it stands, it couldn't be much worse (and yes I understand it's still better than living in a 3rd world country, but that's only because the American people have built such a great nation, in spite of the criminal, parasite monkeys on our back). |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Mon Aug 24, 2009 1:06 am Post subject: |
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| visitorq wrote: |
| Fox wrote: |
| visitorq wrote: |
| Do I need to make a list?? Off the cuff, not having to pay income tax to the scum bag usurers at the Fed would be nice. |
All right, that's one: you want the freedom to keep 100% of your income. |
I don't mind paying some taxes, but NOT to the mother of all parasites the Fed. That institution is a criminal racket, plain and simple and I resent having to pay them a single cent. In fact I resent the fact that I can't spend a single cent without it having come from them in the first place. |
Well then the only thing on your list that actually was a genuine issue of freedom -- freedom from taxation -- stops being about taxation and starts being about how the government spends your money after they take it. perhaps the Federal Reserve is detestable, but that doesn't make it an issue of personal freedoms. It just makes it bad.
You people use words like freedom and liberty far too casually; it stopped meaning anything out of the mouths of many Americans a long time ago, and that's a shame.
| visitorq wrote: |
| Quote: |
| visitorq wrote: |
| Not having to have my purchasing power destroyed by Fed and government caused inflation (printing off trillions more of their un-backed FRAUD notes every month) is another. |
Not a freedom issue, especially since no one forces you to use United States currency. |
What are you talking about?? Of course I'm forced to use it - it's ILLEGAL to use other currencies in the US. |
Don't be ridiculous, you can pay with anything anyone will accept from you. There's even an online web site that has essentially created its own currency, which is used to trade for various goods and services, I remember hearing about it on NPR.
If you want to go to the bank and trade your U.S. dollars for another form of curency, no one is stopping you. Legal tender laws mean you cannot refuse a type of currency, not that you are limited to that type of currency. If someone pays you with it, you can simply go and change it over to your preferred type of currency; you can even charge them for the transaction cost if you wish, include it in the price.
| visitorq wrote: |
| Quote: |
| visitorq wrote: |
| Not being forced to take killer flu vaccines is another. |
No one's forcing anyone to do this. The government is clearly PROMOTING it, but I've yet to see anyone forced to take it against their will. Not a freedom issue. |
Again, you have no idea what's going on... they are now currently planning to make the swine flu shots mandatory for everyone. Weren't aware of that either? |
Show me a link please? If there is genuinely a mandatory schedule for this, I'm as concerned as you are, but I haven't seen any mandate, merely promotion.
| visitorq wrote: |
| Quote: |
| visitorq wrote: |
| Privacy guaranteed under the constitution is another. |
Perhaps reasonable, but not a freedom issue. |
LOL. Think before you write man... |
In the future, anything that:
1) Doesn't involve a meaningful rebuttal.
2) Doesn't provide new information.
3) Has the term "LOL" in it.
Can be safely omitted from your responses to me.
| visitorq wrote: |
| Quote: |
| visitorq wrote: |
| Basically the list goes on and on. |
So far you've mentioned one thing that is really about "our freedoms," and a lot of things you simply don't like, most of which are totally avoidable if you want. |
I'll give you a chance to amend this silly statement... |
I will: you took the one genuinely freedom-related issue on your list and turned it into a non-freedom related issue. You certainly have complaints, but they aren't freedom-related ones. You're just co-opting the word in an extremist fashion to justify your own desires. I really dislike that kind of rhetoric to be honest, I see enough of it from idiot politicians, why do I need to see it from their dissenters as well?
| visitorq wrote: |
| Quote: |
| visitorq wrote: |
| What I really want is to be left the hell alone. |
There are many places in the world you could go and essentially be "left the Hell alone." Unless what you're saying is you want all the benefits of living in a governed region of the world but none of the draw backs?
You're pretty free, to be honest. No one's making you play the society game. No one's making you keep your wealth in the form of U.S. currency, or even forcing you to accept only U.S. currency as payment for services rendered. No one's even forcing you to live in the United States. If you want to be "left the Hell alone," you can have that. You just can't have that and have all the benefits of civilization; the two are incompatible.
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Right, so your solution is that I stop being an American, and leave my country forever? Gee, that's really helpful, tthanks for your sage-like advice |
Given this solution gives you exactly what you claim to want, it's not a bad solution at all. But you're reticent to sacrifice your American citizenship, because for all you rant about how horrible it is, you know there's far more good than bad to being an American. Civilized, governed life is comfortable, and with innumerable benefits. You want your "freedom," but you won't give up your benefits to get it, so you'll forgive me if I think you don't value it as much as you claim to. You just use it as a justification for your political opinions, some of which are reasonable.
| visitorq wrote: |
| Quote: |
| visitorq wrote: |
| Only difference is I'm not deluded like others on here are, into thinking my government loves me... |
Abolishing -- or even heavily limiting -- government would in no way solve the problems you're describing, because they don't originate with government, but rather with people themselves. Create your ideal Libertarian society tomorrow, and it won't be long before everything ends up the way it is again. That's why Libertarianism is such an irrational philosophy: it ignores the fact that things are the way they are for a reason, and ignores the fact that it's idealized solution is no solution at all if the solution doesn't stick. Libertarianism has no staying power.
I understand how you feel, but as long as you remain as extremist as you currently are, you'll never be able to work towards a constructive solution. |
You offer no solution yourself. Yours is to let corruption reign, because, hey, it's not that bad... |
My solution is for the public to genuinely inform themselves and begin holding their political representatives accountable. This is the only true solution. Any other solution is just like Communism: something that sounds good on paper, but will end up being a mess. Libertarianism especially.
| visitorq wrote: |
| As for your assertion that these problems don't originate with government, that's just the most absurd and disingenuous thing you've written. If you stop and think, you will find that they ALL come from government. |
Who lets themselves be played by obviously false information? Who votes for people without knowing who they really are and what they really stand for? Who often can't even name their own elected representatives?
The American public. Go ahead, abolish the current government. Have your revolution. Bring things back to the Constitution you value so highly. Everything will creep back to the way it is now, because our people will be the same as they were before.
Rant about the government all you like, but it's pointless.
| visitorq wrote: |
| The job of our government is to uphold the constitution - that is its sole purpose. |
Believe that all you like. Most people disagree with you, so it won't ever be that way.
| visitorq wrote: |
| I understand no government will ever be perfect, but as it stands, it couldn't be much worse (and yes I understand it's still better than living in a 3rd world country, but that's only because the American people have built such a great nation, in spite of the criminal, parasite monkeys on our back). |
It couldn't be much worse, eh? Have a look at a history book sometime; it can be much, much worse. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Mon Aug 24, 2009 3:50 am Post subject: |
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| Fox wrote: |
That's why Libertarianism is such an irrational philosophy: it ignores the fact that things are the way they are for a reason, and ignores the fact that it's idealized solution is no solution at all if the solution doesn't stick. Libertarianism has no staying power.
I understand how you feel, but as long as you remain as extremist as you currently are, you'll never be able to work towards a constructive solution. |
Libertarianism is irrational?
Yeah, I guess I'd think that too if I clung to some absurd mock-up of Somalia representing libertarianism realized. |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Mon Aug 24, 2009 3:55 am Post subject: |
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| Kuros wrote: |
| Fox wrote: |
That's why Libertarianism is such an irrational philosophy: it ignores the fact that things are the way they are for a reason, and ignores the fact that it's idealized solution is no solution at all if the solution doesn't stick. Libertarianism has no staying power.
I understand how you feel, but as long as you remain as extremist as you currently are, you'll never be able to work towards a constructive solution. |
Libertarianism is irrational?
Yeah, I guess I'd think that too if I clung to some absurd mock-up of Somalia representing libertarianism realized. |
You explain to me what real-world factors will stop Libertarianism from returning to a more heavily governed system over time then. Unlike other governmental philosophies, it's so bare-boned that it can't really resist change, even in theory.
There will always be more people who feel down on their luck than people who feel up on it; more people who feel life is unfair than people who feel life is fair. Those people will always push for change in the system, and unlike strongly-governed systems, a Libertarian government can't be reasonably expected to resist that drive for change.
Unless, like ontheway, you genuinely believe all social problems are caused by the government, and as soon as a truly Libertarian society were adopted, the basic character of its citizens would magically change?
Libertarianism, like Communism, is something that sounds great on paper, but won't work out in reality until or unless something massive changes about the human character, and speculating about what could or couldn't be possible after such a massive change is pointless. To that extent, Libertarianism is irrational, yes. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Mon Aug 24, 2009 4:20 am Post subject: |
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| Fox wrote: |
| Kuros wrote: |
| Fox wrote: |
That's why Libertarianism is such an irrational philosophy: it ignores the fact that things are the way they are for a reason, and ignores the fact that it's idealized solution is no solution at all if the solution doesn't stick. Libertarianism has no staying power.
I understand how you feel, but as long as you remain as extremist as you currently are, you'll never be able to work towards a constructive solution. |
Libertarianism is irrational?
Yeah, I guess I'd think that too if I clung to some absurd mock-up of Somalia representing libertarianism realized. |
You explain to me what real-world factors will stop Libertarianism from returning to a more heavily governed system over time then. Unlike other governmental philosophies, it's so bare-boned that it can't really resist change, even in theory. |
That's a lot more interesting an indictment than calling Libertarianism irrational. That's why I'm answering it (even though its certainly a thread-hijack, oh well).
Yeah, I think that's true, especially of bare-bones Libertarianism. I think humans are political animals, and thus it'll be impossible to keep them out of the public sphere. Caesars will always rise up in any society.
Government arose in response to what I believe were two principal threats:
a) severely inclement weather
b) threats from raiders and bandits
I think government has to exist to protect against those trepidations. The problem is what will government do the rest of the time?
I don't think of libertarianism in Utopianist terms. I think of it as anti-Utopian, i.e., a rejection of the Utopia of other political philosophies. I think there are periods where more authority is needed to protect a libertarian society against chaos, and I think there are periods where more authority is needed to project libertarianism (I would say there was a period in the United States where both of these needs converged; the American civil war).
I think the American Constitution is essentially Libertarian. I believe the power invested in the Executive is necessary, as Lincoln said, to channel and focus the Caesars in our society to a noble end (in addition to the other purposes the Executive serves). I think the American Constitution contains contradictions, some of which we have been stricken along the way (is anything less libertarian than slavery?), and some of which have gotten stronger with erroneous interpretation (the castration of the Commerce Clause under FDR's coercion of the court comes to mind).
I think the income tax is probably one of the softest non-Libertarian evils in modern American history, although you'll note that's come relatively recently in American history, aside from appropriate emergency provisions during the Civil War. That's why you'll see me often grudgingly accept it. Its not at the top of the list for me.
I could go on, but I think for this thread this should suffice.
So on a scale of 1 to 10, 10 being bat-shit insane, how irrational is all this? Note that the above may not be endorsed by all libertarians.
| Fox wrote: |
| Unless, like ontheway, you genuinely believe all social problems are caused by the government, and as soon as a truly Libertarian society were adopted, the basic character of its citizens would change? |
Ha. No, I definitely do not believe all social problems are caused by the government.
Fox, I encourage you to create or resurrect a more appropriate thread and continue the discussion there. |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Mon Aug 24, 2009 5:46 am Post subject: |
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My compliments to Fox re: his exchanges with Visitorq here for hitting the nail on the head.
| visitorq wrote: |
| The USA was founded on the values I espouse, not on yours. |
You know, every time I hear people like you talking like this, citing our fundamental values and ideals and how we must return to them and never deviate from them, how you speak for them and not me, and that the present is an abomination that infuriates you because we have departed from and deviated from them, I think of inflexible Islamic extremists like Hamas, the Taliban, and Osama bin Laden.
The world changes, nations change, people change, Visitorq. We are not a small, late-eighteenth century republic dealing with the Atlantic trading world to the east and Indians and Spaniards to the west in a pre-railroad, pre-telegraph age anymore. Deal with it.
________
| Kuros wrote: |
Government arose in response to what I believe were two principal threats:
a) severely inclement weather
b) threats from raiders and bandits |
Small point for this thread. But this question has always interested me. I think we must include agriculture and water management in governments' origins, Kuros. Probably would fit in your first category here. |
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Pluto
Joined: 19 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Mon Aug 24, 2009 7:41 am Post subject: |
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[quote="Kuros]
Yeah, I think that's true, especially of bare-bones Libertarianism. I think humans are political animals, and thus it'll be impossible to keep them out of the public sphere. Caesars will always rise up in any society. [/quote]
This is a question I've often thought of too. Would it ever be possible to go back to the type of liberalism practiced ala the 19th century? Probably not. As Kuros mentioned, slavery existed in the 19th century and Western Europe was fully invested in the colonization game, even though no 2 European states went to war for 99 years. Kuros says that humans are political animals and this is a sentiment I tend to agree with, although I take a bit more of a cynical view. I really feel I don't know what is best for anyone except for me. I don't know what's best for you and you've no idea what is best for me. It takes a certain amount of arrogance to say or think that you know something like my personal health care needs or anyone else's for that matter, for example. In short, my cynical view tells me that true liberalism will not exist so long as arrogant people exist. I should clarify, there are other reasons, but this just comes off the top of my head as health care is a huge issue right now.
Also, I see no reason why I should just lie down and take this fatalist attitude and just say, hey that is just the way it is. When I see the Fed involve itself in ZIRP, quantitative easing or whatever. Then, yes, I think it's right to point out and say, "Whoa! Slow down the printing press lest inflation becomes a huge threat!" for example. This is all a matter of philosophy, of course. I don't think Ben Bernanke wakes up every morning thinking, "Well, gee, how can I swindle the American people today?" He has studied the Great Depression, he sees the situation as it is and is acting according to his worldview. Mind you, the conclusions he has drawn and the ones I have drawn are very different. I will point out the dangers and risks of such actions. I don't understand why I should just take some type of fatalist attitude and just accept it or shut up.
just take some type of fatalist attitude and just accept it or shut up.
Last edited by Pluto on Mon Aug 24, 2009 11:19 am; edited 1 time in total |
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visitorq
Joined: 11 Jan 2008
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| Posted: Mon Aug 24, 2009 8:19 am Post subject: |
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| Fox wrote: |
| visitorq wrote: |
| Fox wrote: |
| visitorq wrote: |
| Do I need to make a list?? Off the cuff, not having to pay income tax to the scum bag usurers at the Fed would be nice. |
All right, that's one: you want the freedom to keep 100% of your income. |
I don't mind paying some taxes, but NOT to the mother of all parasites the Fed. That institution is a criminal racket, plain and simple and I resent having to pay them a single cent. In fact I resent the fact that I can't spend a single cent without it having come from them in the first place. |
Well then the only thing on your list that actually was a genuine issue of freedom -- freedom from taxation -- stops being about taxation and starts being about how the government spends your money after they take it. perhaps the Federal Reserve is detestable, but that doesn't make it an issue of personal freedoms. It just makes it bad.
You people use words like freedom and liberty far too casually; it stopped meaning anything out of the mouths of many Americans a long time ago, and that's a shame. |
You're being absurd and you know it. Your definition of freedom is to either accept the status quo or go into exile and live as a hermit. You don't even know what the word liberty means.
| Quote: |
Don't be ridiculous, you can pay with anything anyone will accept from you. There's even an online web site that has essentially created its own currency, which is used to trade for various goods and services, I remember hearing about it on NPR.
If you want to go to the bank and trade your U.S. dollars for another form of curency, no one is stopping you. Legal tender laws mean you cannot refuse a type of currency, not that you are limited to that type of currency. If someone pays you with it, you can simply go and change it over to your preferred type of currency; you can even charge them for the transaction cost if you wish, include it in the price. |
No, you are not allowed to create another currency in the USA. Those internet currencies were dollar based -- meaning you had to buy 'credit' using Federal Reserve dollars.
All monetary transactions required in society are done in dollars. Exchanging to foreign currencies is irrelevant since that currency can only be spent abroad, and must be changed back into dollars to be spent in the US. All payments received from employment are made in dollars, and all debts must be paid in dollars.
Again, exiling oneself as a hermit living off of acorns is the only idea of freedom you seem capable of seeing. You are blatantly ignoring the fact that the constitution allows for competing currencies, as well as an interest-free issued by the Treasury, not the privately owned Fed.
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| visitorq wrote: |
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| visitorq wrote: |
| Not being forced to take killer flu vaccines is another. |
No one's forcing anyone to do this. The government is clearly PROMOTING it, but I've yet to see anyone forced to take it against their will. Not a freedom issue. |
Again, you have no idea what's going on... they are now currently planning to make the swine flu shots mandatory for everyone. Weren't aware of that either? |
Show me a link please? If there is genuinely a mandatory schedule for this, I'm as concerned as you are, but I haven't seen any mandate, merely promotion. |
I already posted a link. There's loads more info in the independent media online. They've already started making it mandatory for health workers:
http://www.infectiousdiseasenews.com/article/33499.aspx
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| visitorq wrote: |
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| Privacy guaranteed under the constitution is another. |
Perhaps reasonable, but not a freedom issue. |
LOL. Think before you write man... |
In the future, anything that:
1) Doesn't involve a meaningful rebuttal.
2) Doesn't provide new information.
3) Has the term "LOL" in it.
Can be safely omitted from your responses to me.
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Touche. And anything you write that too obviously absurd for me to bother addressing can be safely omitted from your responses to me.
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I will: you took the one genuinely freedom-related issue on your list and turned it into a non-freedom related issue. You certainly have complaints, but they aren't freedom-related ones. You're just co-opting the word in an extremist fashion to justify your own desires. I really dislike that kind of rhetoric to be honest, I see enough of it from idiot politicians, why do I need to see it from their dissenters as well? |
You haven't made any case here, so please stop acting as if you have... Now you're just throwing me a big fat non sequitur, telling me that I'm misusing the word 'freedom' .
Give me a break. If you want to believe you're "free" to spend only Fed fraud money, pay taxes to your corrupt eugenicist-infested government, drink your fluoride and get your flu shots, then be my guest. I'm not going along with it.
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| There are many places in the world you could go and essentially be "left the Hell alone." Unless what you're saying is you want all the benefits of living in a governed region of the world but none of the draw backs? |
What are you on about? I'm not advocating anarchism. You are the confused one here... My POV is pretty straightforward: the sole purpose of the government of the USA is to protect the Constitution, which in turn protects our personal liberties. Right now the government has shredded the Constitution and is ruining the lives of so many Americans.
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| You're pretty free, to be honest. No one's making you play the society game. No one's making you keep your wealth in the form of U.S. currency, or even forcing you to accept only U.S. currency as payment for services rendered. No one's even forcing you to live in the United States. If you want to be "left the Hell alone," you can have that. You just can't have that and have all the benefits of civilization; the two are incompatible. |
Horsesh_t. I've already addressed this fallacy of yours in the first paragraph. You can bring up again if you want, but there's not much point. I'm allowed to defend the rights of the constitution against government tyranny, and supine, pro-government apologists like yourself can never convince me otherwise.
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| Given this solution gives you exactly what you claim to want, it's not a bad solution at all. But you're reticent to sacrifice your American citizenship, because for all you rant about how horrible it is, you know there's far more good than bad to being an American. Civilized, governed life is comfortable, and with innumerable benefits. You want your "freedom," but you won't give up your benefits to get it, so you'll forgive me if I think you don't value it as much as you claim to. You just use it as a justification for your political opinions, some of which are reasonable. |
So you show your true colors at last: "if you don't like the government tyranny, you don't belong in America". If you actually believe this, then you ought to be ashamed.
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| My solution is for the public to genuinely inform themselves and begin holding their political representatives accountable. This is the only true solution. Any other solution is just like Communism: something that sounds good on paper, but will end up being a mess. Libertarianism especially. |
NON SEQUITUR. You don't even define your terms. What are you calling libertarianism? Defending the US Constitution??? What kind of drivel is that?
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Who lets themselves be played by obviously false information? Who votes for people without knowing who they really are and what they really stand for? Who often can't even name their own elected representatives?
The American public. Go ahead, abolish the current government. Have your revolution. Bring things back to the Constitution you value so highly. Everything will creep back to the way it is now, because our people will be the same as they were before.
Rant about the government all you like, but it's pointless. |
That's exactly what I'm advocating in a nutshell. It is not pointless, but was in fact predicted by the founding fathers. The corruption needs to be swept away, and we need to revert back to what this country was founded on. If the corruption creeps back in, then we sweep it away again and again, to infinity if necessary. Each time we do it, we will again become the most prosperous country on earth. I believe this, it's some kind of "faith" I have, but a practical belief stemming from common sense. Right now the government and the banks are sucking us dry, literally destroying our economy, stealing our wealth, and selling us down the river. These criminals NEED to be taken out, or our country will be ruined. Simple as that.
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| visitorq wrote: |
| The job of our government is to uphold the constitution - that is its sole purpose. |
Believe that all you like. Most people disagree with you, so it won't ever be that way. |
I think you will find that most people agree with me on this obvious fact. That is what the government's job is, and has been since day one. Please, cut the BS.
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| visitorq wrote: |
| I understand no government will ever be perfect, but as it stands, it couldn't be much worse (and yes I understand it's still better than living in a 3rd world country, but that's only because the American people have built such a great nation, in spite of the criminal, parasite monkeys on our back). |
It couldn't be much worse, eh? Have a look at a history book sometime; it can be much, much worse. |
Yeah, looking at history, understanding that corruption always leads to ruination for a country and enslavement (literal or figurative) of the people, and looking at what's going on as we speak, I'd say it couldn't get much worse (without actually hitting the wall that is). The banks are going to town on us, no holds barred. It's going to be us or them, there can't be any compromise at this point (since the Fed ponzi scheme has already unraveled, the only think left for them to do to stop their own collapse is to loot us for everything we have).
Last edited by visitorq on Mon Aug 24, 2009 8:47 am; edited 1 time in total |
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visitorq
Joined: 11 Jan 2008
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| Posted: Mon Aug 24, 2009 8:26 am Post subject: |
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| Gopher wrote: |
My compliments to Fox re: his exchanges with Visitorq here for hitting the nail on the head.
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| The USA was founded on the values I espouse, not on yours. |
You know, every time I hear people like you talking like this, citing our fundamental values and ideals and how we must return to them and never deviate from them, how you speak for them and not me, and that the present is an abomination that infuriates you because we have departed from and deviated from them, I think of inflexible Islamic extremists like Hamas, the Taliban, and Osama bin Laden.
The world changes, nations change, people change, Visitorq. We are not a small, late-eighteenth century republic dealing with the Atlantic trading world to the east and Indians and Spaniards to the west in a pre-railroad, pre-telegraph age anymore. Deal with it. |
Right.... so let me get this straight then: are you, Gopher, now saying that we no longer need the Constitution???
Because all I'm advocating is following it. It has little or nothing to do with historical context; the ideas it contains are quite broad, one might even say universal, and easily applicable to today's society as well. All that is good and progressive about America, our innovation, our prosperity, our practically limitless potential etc comes from the rights and freedoms guaranteed in that document. Without it, we'd be a nation of serfs, which is what we are reverting to more and more each day.
This is not a radical notion I'm posing here... |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Mon Aug 24, 2009 9:07 am Post subject: |
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| visitorq wrote: |
Without it, we'd be a nation of serfs, which is what we are reverting to more and more each day.
This is not a radical notion I'm posing here... |
But, whatever it may be, your hyperbole obscures it and alieantes many, not only myself.
The only serfs I know of existed under Tsarist Russia in an earlier age, and the Russians liberated them and changed their system multiples times even between now and then, Visitorq.
There is zero chance that Americans might someday become a nation of serfs. Get a grip. |
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bacasper
Joined: 26 Mar 2007
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| Posted: Mon Aug 24, 2009 9:23 am Post subject: |
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| visitorq wrote: |
| That's exactly what I'm advocating in a nutshell. It is not pointless, but was in fact predicted by the founding fathers. The corruption needs to be swept away, and we need to revert back to what this country was founded on. If the corruption creeps back in, then we sweep it away again and again, to infinity if necessary. Each time we do it, we will again become the most prosperous country on earth. I believe this, it's some kind of "faith" I have, but a practical belief stemming from common sense. |
| Thomas Jefferson wrote: |
| The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time, with the blood of patriots and tyrants. |
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