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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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 Posted: Sat Aug 22, 2009 7:09 pm Post subject: |
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http://www2.macleans.ca/2009/08/13/we-can%E2%80%99t-talk-about-immigration/2/
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| We can�t talk about immigration |
But we should.
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Christopher Caldwell�s new book is called Reflections on the Revolution in Europe. And, if you don�t quite get the Burkean allusion, his subtitle spells out his real concerns: �Immigration, Islam and the West.� Given my own obsessions in recent years, you�d expect me to be favourably disposed to it. And I am, my enthusiasm only slightly tempered by the instant conventional wisdom that, if you�re only going to buy one Islamophobic Euro-doom-mongering diatribe this summer, Caldwell�s is the sober and respectable one, in striking contrast to certain others we could mention. �Unlike [Oriana] Fallaci and Mark Steyn, Caldwell does not rant or sneer,� writes Matt Carr of Britain�s Institute of Race Relations. Caldwell, says The Atlantic�s Andrew Sullivan, is not a �Steynian hysteric.� Oh, dear. I think I prefer the droll Irish commentator �P O�Neill�: �Someone has to say it,� he smirked. �Caldwell is the thinking man�s Mark Steyn.�
But enough about me. On to the book . . . actually, hold on a minute. One more thing about me. Let us put Islam aside for the moment, as my views have been well aired in these pages, and consider the author�s other theme. As it happens, for all his non-ranting, non-hysterical sobriety, Mr. Caldwell is somewhat more �extreme� than I am on immigration. For a notorious blowhard, I can go a bit cryptic or (according to taste) wimpy when invited to confront that particular subject head on. On the CBC last year, I was tap dancing around various socio-cultural generalities when the host, George Stroumboulopoulos, leaned in in that way he has and cut to the chase: �You mean [pause and knowing glance to camera] immigration?�
I thought of bolting for the nearest exit, but, at such moments, I usually take refuge in the formulation that a dependence on mass immigration is always a structural weakness and it would be prudent to address it as such. But in the end my line�s a bit of a dodge. As Christopher Caldwell sees it, no country truly �depends� on mass immigration. Ultimately, it�s a choice, or a fetish, or a fit of absentmindedness for which, in the event that one is called upon to justify it, there is no rationale. Indeed, it�s the defining irrationale of the age: a hitherto all but unknown phenomenon that is now regarded either as inevitable or the essential moral component of an advanced society.
To be sure, the green eyeshade types never cease trying to sell it on more prosaic grounds. �Sober-minded economists reckon that the potential gains from freer global migration are huge,� writes Philippe Legrain in Immigrants: Your Country Needs Them. �The World Bank reckons that if rich countries allowed their workforce to swell by a mere three per cent by letting in an extra 14 million workers from developing countries between 2001 and 2025, the world would be $356 billion a year better off, with the new migrants themselves gaining $162 billion a year, people who remain in poor countries $143 billion, and natives in rich countries $139 billion.�
$139 billion? From �a mere� 14 million extra immigrants? Wow! As Caldwell writes, �The aggregate gross domestic product of the advanced economies for the year 2008 is estimated by the International Monetary Fund at close to $40 trillion.� So an extra $139 billion works out to an extra, er, 0.0035 per cent. He compares M. Legrain to Dr. Evil excitedly holding the world hostage for one million dollars! �Sacrificing 0.0035 of your economy would be a pittance to pay for starting to get your country back.�
Okay, forget economic growth. With Europe�s population aging and the worker/retiree ratio shrivelling remorselessly, we need more immigrants to come in and prop up the welfare state. Johnny Frenchman may get a bit tetchy at the end of an agreeable evening with his mistress when he glances out the window just before heading back to the missus and sees une bande de jeunes (in the preferred designation) lighting up his Citro�n. But when he�s 53 and retired he�ll be grateful to have those jeunes in the workforce paying in to keep his benefit cheques coming. That, at any rate, is the theory. The reality is encapsulated in this remarkable statistic from the Bundesausl�nderbeauftragte: between 1971 and 2000, the number of foreign residents in Germany rose from three million to about 7.5 million. Yet the number of foreigners in work stayed more or less exactly the same at about two million. Four decades ago, two-thirds of German immigrants were in the workforce. By the turn of the century, barely a quarter were. These days, Germany�s Gastarbeiter (�guest workers�) are heavy on the Gast, ever lighter on the Beiter.
Turks in Germany have three times the rate of welfare dependency as ethnic Germans, and their average retirement age is 50. In the Stockholm suburb of Tensta, where immigrants and their children make up 85 per cent of the population, one-fifth of women in their late 40s collect disability benefits. Foreigners didn�t so much game the system as discover, thanks to family �reunification� and other lollipops, that it demanded nothing of them. Indeed, entire industries were signed up for public subsidy. Two-thirds of French imams are on the dole. Does M. Legrain set their welfare cheques on the debit side of that spectacular 0.0035 per cent economic growth? Or does that count as valuable long-term investment in the critical economic growth sector of fire-breathing mullahs?
Across the decades, one self-delusion of the political class succeeds another: �temporary workers� are now political �refugees�; the urgent need for mill workers and janitors is now an urgent need for millions of Somali software engineers who�ll help Europe stay competitive in the �high-tech� �knowledge economy.� The policy changes but the traffic is remorseless. Recoiling from the logic of tightly argued books like Caldwell�s, sophisticates protest that �it is hard to generalize about Europe.� And it�s true that, if you take a stamp collector�s approach to immigration issues, there are many fascinating differences: the French blame their immigration woes on the bitter legacy of colonialism; Germans blame theirs on a lack of colonial experience at dealing with these exotic chappies. But, if you�re in some decrepit housing project on the edge of almost any Continental city from Malm� to Marseilles, it makes little difference in practice. �If you understand how immigration, Islam, and native European culture interact in any western European country,� writes Caldwell, �you can predict roughly how they will interact in any other�no matter what its national character, no matter whether it conquered an empire, no matter what its role in World War II, and no matter what the provenance of its Muslim immigrants.�
How does one express one�s, ah, concerns about these issues? Caldwell cites a headline from his own newspaper, the Financial Times: �The Uneasy Cosmopolitan: How Migrants Are Enriching An Ever More Anxious Host.�
The �unease� seems principally on the part of the FT�s sub-editor: as his linguistic tiptoeing suggests, decades of multiculti squeamishness have stripped us even of a language with which to discuss the subject. What benefit is it to France or French taxpayers to fund Islamic welfare imams? To pose the question is to miss the point. If you believe in mass immigration, you do so because it�s a talisman of your own moral virtue. If the economic argument for immigration is reductive even when it�s not plain deluded, the psychological one is not to be disdained. On the one hand, mass immigration is the price posterity levies on old-school imperialists: �They are here because we were there,� as they say in the Netherlands. But, if like Sweden you never had an imperialist bone in your body, they�re still here: �They are poor because we are rich.� And, if you�re a small urbanized nation like the Netherlands, the �challenge� of immigration is just the usual frictions that occur when people from the countryside�in this case, the Moroccan countryside�move to the cities.
So it�s the consequence of your urban planning, or your colonialism, or your wealth, or just plain you. We�ll blame anything rather than confront the central truth�that when an old, relatively unicultural society admits in a short space of time a large, young, fecund population from somewhere else, you are setting in motion a process of transformation. Caldwell asks the obvious question��Can you have the same Europe with different people?� and gives the obvious answer: no. �Europe is not welcoming its newest residents but making way for them.�
In the end, that coy French euphemism for the, um, rioters of no particular socio-religious persuasion��youths��gets to the heart of the matter: youths are youthful, and ethnic Europeans aren�t. In the heavily North African Paris suburb of Montfermeil, the Muslim children from the housing projects pass on their way to school each morning a neighbourhood of detached houses still occupied by French natives: they call it �la ville des vieux��the old people�s town. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Sat Aug 22, 2009 8:40 pm Post subject: |
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We get it.
Europeans aren't reproducing enough. Immigrants who are Muslims aren't assimilating well enough.
I dunno. I've heard it all before, not from Mark Steyn, whose book I couldn't continue reading b/c it was rather adolescent, but from this guy, who mises would probably get along with except that he's a Christian supremicist.
But even Spengler/David Goldman has shown that Muslim birthrates are trending towards their own fall. Its worth clicking through the links to look at his graphs.
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| Although the Muslim birth rate today is the world�s second highest (after sub-Saharan Africa), it is falling faster than the birth rate of any other culture. By 2050, according to the latest UN projections, the population growth rate of the Muslim world will converge on that of the United States (although it will be much higher than Europe's or China's). |
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gelynch52
Joined: 18 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Sun Aug 23, 2009 2:21 am Post subject: I am in an actually "Muslim District." |
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I am in an actually "Muslim District." That district would be Saudi Arabia. The men here actually believe there are about 5 women for every man here when, in fact, the male population outnumbers the female population by about 2%. The men say there is no homosexuality here but it runs rampant even more so than in normal countries. A male Filipino is taking his behind in his hands if he gets caught out by a bunch of horny, sexually repressed Saudis. Heaven help the poor woman caught away from some male to protect her. Gang-rape is not only common; but the woman in such cases is usually prosecuted for being alone & "creating bad thoughts" in the minds of men.
The racism and such in Korea sounds like heaven after being here in Saudi. Those violated people cannot even run away from this country because their employer keeps their passport and even if they had it, the employer must write a letter allowing a person to leave. If no letter in hand, the officials at the border refuse to allow egress. |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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| Posted: Sun Aug 23, 2009 9:12 am Post subject: |
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Malm�: "They don't respect Muslims"
About 150 activists showed up Saturday night for a street party in Roseng�rd, to protest the police presence and demand various rights. The activists claimed that they had support from the residents and that therefore it would not be a problem that this was the first night of Ramadan. The residents, however, seemed to think differently and chased them out.
For the past few months, since there were riots in the area, with heavy involvement by Leftist activists, the police have been keeping a presence in the area round the clock. The roundabout next to the gas station serves as a base for the police's increased presence.
Preparing for the street party, the police were assigned extra forces, and the Malm� municipality hoped to attract the youth by keeping youth centers open and organizing a football tournament.
In June the group in question also organized a party in the V�stra hamnen area of Malm� in June, to protest segregation and residence issues.
While many families celebrated the beginning of the Ramadan fast, police and demonstrations met in violent confrontations. Stones and firecrackers were thrown around.
"They don't respect Muslims. They don't take into account this is the month that is the month of peace," says Ahmad el Mohamad of Herrg�rden [area in the district of Roseng�rd, Malm�].
Under the slogans "Cops out of Herrg�rden", "reduced rent and complete renovation of all dilapidated buildings" and "self-government and free youth centers" the "Reclaim Roseng�rd" group organized a street party Saturday night.
The protest started at 8pm when the group started gathering at the roundabout next to the Shell station on Ramels v�g. The gas station is normally open till midnight, but due to the expected disturbances they closed already at 5pm.
Twenty minutes after the party stated, a fight broke out on the roundabout. Several people came in a red mini-van and tried to tear down the banners. Many Roseng�rd resident protested loudly against the loudspeaker van and the atmosphere got tense.
The participants of "Reclaim Roseng�rd" were then driven away from the roundabout by an irritated crowd, including members of the new Roseng�rd gang "Lion's Family", while members of the Black Cobra gang appeared on the activists side. The activists were forced to flee to the McDonald's.
One of the 'counter-demonstrators' told Sydsvensakn that already earlier in the day they'd decided to go against the participants of "Reclaim Roseng�rd".
"They come here and cause problems and we do not want them here. It's just a lot of violence that gives Roseng�rd a bad reputation. They can have their parties at home in Limhamn [upscale Malm� neighborhood]", says Mohammed Aburid and wonders why the "Reclaim" participants were masked.
His friend Ali Finjan agreed.
"They just want to vandalize and destroy. I hope they never come here again. We want to have quiet here and we are glad the police are here," he said.
In an apartment on Ramels v�g several hundred meters away the Mohamad-Hussein family prepares to break the fast.
Ahmad el Mohamad waits for the lamb skewers on the grill to be ready. He reacts to the fact that the yard outside is quiet.
"In most cases lots of children use it outside to play. Now it's completely empty. I think that many warned them and said that nobody should be outside."
Up from the balcony we see how a police helicopter circles about in the sky. Ahmad el Mohamad says that he's glad that Ramadan started and he thinks of how he'll soon lay the table nicely. But he's concerned that he'll soon have to go to work.
"It's not good. My wife won't dare be alone at home. I hope her brother comes here soon."
His wife, Rukia Hussein, is in the kitchen, preparing dinner.
Neither she nor her husband have trouble understanding who's behind the street party and what's their goal. She doesn't buy the organizer's reasoning that they have support among the residents here.
"No, we're against it."
At about 8:30 the family sits down to eat. At the same time music pounds from the gas station. The police buses can be seen everywhere. Police horses pass outside the window.
"Horses, horses," calls out 6-year old daughter Youmna el Mohamad.
Her father Ahmad el Mohamad shakes his head and says this absolutely doesn't go together with Ramadan. "It just gives a negative image of our district."
The December riots are repeated.
Shortly before 10 PM, some of the Reclaim activist suddenly throw bottles and firecrackers at the police. Some of the objects hit the police vehicles. The police put on their helmets and took positions behind their cars. The atmosphere was tense.
And so it continued into the night. |
http://islamineurope.blogspot.com/2009/08/malmo-they-dont-respect-muslims.html
It is a good sign that they are trying to occupy and recolonize these muslim areas. I guess Sweden has a permanent underclass now. How would have thought that Somalies wouldn't become Swedes?
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Amsterdam: Brothers threatened after being mistaken for gays
Two brothers in Ymere (Amsterdam) were forced to move since their Muslim neighbor thought they were a gay couple and threatened them with violence.
In July the two got into a fight with the neighbor. "Dirty homos," the man said according to one of the (straight) brothers, "I'll kill you."
When he asked the man why, he came at him with a knife, the brother told Dutch newspaper Het Parool. When they asked for more explanation, the man went back home, saying he was going to get a gun. The brothers fled.
They lodged a complaint for threats and sought shelters elsewhere. According to the brothers the man is an orthodox Muslims who goes about dressed in a white djellaba with a matching crocheted cap. They doubt if the man's mentally stable.
The residence association of Ymere has meanwhile offered the brothers a different residence since their safety can't be assured. They also started the process to evict the man. |
http://islamineurope.blogspot.com/2009/08/amsterdam-brothers-threatened-after.html
Nothing to see here. |
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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
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| Posted: Sun Aug 23, 2009 9:21 am Post subject: |
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| Many leftist icons however - Pilger, Chomsky - are just Bolsheviks high on working class revolutionary utopianism. |
Chomsky a bolshevik? Well...
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I was deeply interested, as I had been for some years, in radical politics with an anarchist or left-wing (anti-Leninist) Marxist flavor, and even more deeply involved in Zionist affairs and activities -- or what was then called "Zionist," though the same ideas and concerns are now called "anti-Zionist." I was interested in socialist, binationalist options for Palestine, and in the kibbutzim and the whole cooperative labor system that had developed in the Jewish settlement there (the Yishuv), but had never been able to become close to Zionist youth groups that shared these interests because they were either Stalinist or Trotskyite and I always been strongly anti-Bolshevik. We should bear in mind that in the latter stages of the Depression, when I was growing up, these were very lively issues.
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There were very interesting people there, but it was surreal in some ways. This was 1953, at the time of the Slansky trials in Czechoslovakia and the last stages of Stalinist lunacy. These late Stalin purges had a strong anti-Semitic element, but people there actually defended them. They even defended the trial of a fellow kibbutz member who was an emissary of the kibbutz movement there and was charged with being a spy, which they knew to be false. Not all did, of course. Those who thought about these things -- many did not -- were orthodox Marxist-Leninists, and I could discern no visible departure from a fairly rigid party line, though there may well have been much that I never saw.
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I didn't have any affiliation to any group, the Zionist left or elsewhere. Partly it was that I'm not much of a "joiner," I guess. Furthermore, every organization that I knew of, on the left at least, was Leninist, either Stalinist or Trotskyite. I was always very anti-Leninist, and I simply didn't know of any group at all that shared my views. This was true of the Zionist left, and of much of the American left at the time, as far as I knew. This is the early forties that we're talking about. Quite frankly, I didn't see any significant difference between the Trotskyites and the Stalinists, except that the Trotskyites had lost. They of course saw a big difference. There are some differences, but basically I thought they were exaggerated. That's what I felt at the time, and I still do feel that essentially. So there was no group that I knew of that I could have had any affiliation with. But I was personally very involved in lots of things that were happening.
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Sun Aug 23, 2009 9:29 am Post subject: |
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Oh, that. Leftists tend to embrace the most byzantine but very bitter factionalist politics within their universe.
Noam Chomsky falls within a postVietnam intellectual current in the United States that once called itself "the New Left." But for him and a few other die-hards, including Howard Zinn, it died over a decade ago.
Still, they have their groupies, however -- especially on the internet. |
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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
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| Posted: Sun Aug 23, 2009 9:41 am Post subject: |
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Oh, that. Leftists tend to embrace the most byzantine but very bitter factionalist politics within their universe.
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I've known a few Leninists, Gopher, and a few anarchists, and I can tell you that the areas of disagreement between them are substantial. Granted, on a lot of issues, they will agree, but then Pat Robertson and Olympia Snowe probably agree on a lot of issues as well. That does not make it accurate to refer to Olympia Snowe as "a member of the Religious Right". |
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Butterfly
Joined: 02 Mar 2003
Location: Kuwait
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| Posted: Mon Aug 24, 2009 2:28 pm Post subject: |
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| mises wrote: |
| Again, if you're looking at the entirety of the EU the numbers aren't scary. Slovakia will be fine. Finland, Czech, Greece and others too. France, as the Koreans say, not so much. Some states won't suffer the fall and others will. Best to look at specific nations rather than hiding country specific trends with aggregate data. |
Britain has a problem, not something I have denied, but it was you who started talking about Europeans in your OP, not me.
Regarding the Times online piece, I will take the statistics seriously with only the mere mention that I would like to see a break down � what do they mean exactly by immigration? As you may or may not know, for example, education is one of the biggest industries in the UK and thousands upon thousands of students from Saudi Arabia, UAE, Kuwait, Turkey and Libya study there every year. Language schools are packed to the brim with them, are these students, who come for a spell but have no intention of staying, included in the statistics? I�m inclined to be suspicious of reports from the Tory press on this topic, especially after similarly alarmist reports on the number of Polish people coming to Britain 2-3 years ago, which gave the number of Poles entering the country but failed to mention those leaving.
The Telegraph article was written in 2004, around the time all this Eurabia hupla started, and before people started to question it's validity. I reckon you must have had to google deep for that one, and skipped through all the 'Debunking the Eurabia Myth' links that must have come up in your search.
And, well, who�d have thought good old Snopes would be in on this act � haha. Marvellous.
www.snopes.com/politics/religion/demographics.asp
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| The falling fertility rates in large segments of the Islamic World have been matched by another significant shift : Across Northern and Western Europe women have suddenly started having babies again.. |
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France: 1.8 Children per family; Muslims 8.1
But no country on earth has such a high fertility rate, and in Algeria and Morocco, the two countries which send the largest number of Muslim immigrants to France, the fertility rate is 2.38, according to the UN�s 2008 figures. |
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| As we observed above, the assumption that current demographic trends will remain static � even in the face of future, political, economic or social changes � is an especially important (and precarious) one, as even small changes in fertility rates can have a significant impact on the future size and nature of populations. Or as Martin Walker noted a Spring 2009 Wilson Quarterly on the subject �the detailed work of demographers tends to seep out to the general public in crude form and sensationalist headlines so become common wisdom.� |
You see? It is all nonsense. Don�t listen to them.
| Sergio Stefanuto wrote: |
The vast majority of smokers don't get lung cancer
Therefore it's a mistake to criticize smoking as the cause of lung cancer
Why even investigate the possibility?
The vast majority of Muslims are perfectly decent people
Therefore it's in error to fear Islam as the direct cause of a horrendous amount of violence
Many supporters of communism were really nice people
It's a mistake, in consequence, to criticize communism |
Mate, I was writing about the nature of the Muslims I have been working with in response to a welcome from an old friend on this board, and didn�t intend it as some point that Muslims are exempt from criticism, I am here precisely to discuss this point and thought my experience of working in a Islamic country would be of interest to people. Clearly not to you.
Ridiculous. And besides this thread is loaded with examples of savage behaviour by muslims, and i didn�t see you presenting the same simplistic diatribe the other way around, chiming in to say, �not all muslims are like that..�
Also, I am in no way an advocate of appeasing the more radical elements of Islam, in fact quite the reverse (I don't see where you get any indication that I am), I believe in absolute zero tolerance for their actions where hate crimes are concerned, such as those mentioned in the OP towards gay people and especially in Britain, their anti-Semitic propaganda. There are far too many forces in the UK that take a step back every time people belonging to any kind of minority act in ways not in-keeping with our laws and customs. I remember many years ago a huge debate in Britain over whether or not we should allow Sikhs to ride motorcycles without helmets to allow for their turbans. That seems ridiculously ephemeral nowadays, compared to the things we put up with.
So yes, we have a few problems in Europe and we need to act. However, from over the Atlantic we get all number of noises about �Eurabia� and �Muslim majority in Europe by 2050� which are not helping as indeed they are not intended to, because they generally come from the right, have an agenda, and are based to dodgy statistics.
We�ll sort our own problems out thank you very much. |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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| Posted: Thu Aug 27, 2009 10:55 am Post subject: |
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| Regarding the Times online piece, I will take the statistics seriously with only the... |
...meeting of the stats with your ideology. Which is precisely what you accuse the (insert pejorative) "across the Atlantic" of.
See, the Europeans are so extremely culturally insecure that they won't defend their country and cultures (unless it is against something American, in which case all the men will get their pink shirts in a knot). Europe will not need a muslim majority to become muslim dominated. In fact, muslims have colonized lands when only in a small minority. I suppose you won't accept any relationship between islam in the past and today, but history has only ended for you, and not them.
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| We�ll sort our own problems out thank you very much. |
And how do you plan on doing that? Be extremely specific, provide evidence that doesn't use pejoratives as the primary means of argumentation. For an example of what it will take, look at the historical precedent of Spain. Do post-modern Europeans have the strength for that? |
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ELGORDO
Joined: 12 Jul 2009
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| Posted: Thu Aug 27, 2009 11:41 pm Post subject: |
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islam is the ultimate hate group, aided and abetted by the uber politically correct BBC and CNN.
If a european dares show mohommed in an unflattering way- well people should be killed, fires started, private property destroyed.
If you criticize the criminal and homicidal actions of groups from the "Religion of Peace" you are shouted down as a "raciss."
People, what is going on is the ultimate projection- that is, they know that you have been politically corrected in school and they accuse you of their own evil.
If you disagree with Obama you're a racist.
If you think that Israel has a right to exist, you're anti muslim
If you don't think global warming is happening, you're being paid off by Haliburton. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Fri Aug 28, 2009 2:01 am Post subject: |
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| ELGORDO wrote: |
If you disagree with Obama you're a racist.
If you think that Israel has a right to exist, you're anti muslim
If you don't think global warming is happening, you're being paid off by Haliburton. |
If you post statements never made on this thread, its a strawman. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Fri Aug 28, 2009 7:36 am Post subject: |
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I just love how the supposedly 'enlightened' people on this thread who stand up for 'individuality' draw such broad strokes on swaths of populations.
If you think all Muslims are terrorists you are so isolated and unexposed I don't know what to say.
Sorry, but some of us actually have know REAL Islamic people. And no, they aren't some monolithic group taking orders from the Senior Cleric. |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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| Posted: Fri Aug 28, 2009 7:54 am Post subject: |
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| If you think all Muslims are terrorists you are so isolated and unexposed I don't know what to say. |
Who said that? |
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