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| Total Votes : 46 |
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visitorq
Joined: 11 Jan 2008
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 Posted: Mon Aug 24, 2009 9:32 am Post subject: |
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| Gopher wrote: |
| visitorq wrote: |
Without it, we'd be a nation of serfs, which is what we are reverting to more and more each day.
This is not a radical notion I'm posing here... |
But, whatever it may be, your hyperbole obscures it and alieantes many, not only myself.
The only serfs I know of existed under Tsarist Russia in an earlier age, and the Russians liberated them and changed their system multiples times even between now and then, Visitorq.
There is zero chance that Americans might someday become a nation of serfs. Get a grip. |
A shattered middle class turned nation of unemployed (supported by the State) and indentured laborers is not far removed... You can pick at my words and treat them literally if makes you feel better, but the overall result is the same. Seems you are completely out of touch with what is happening in America. |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Mon Aug 24, 2009 5:11 pm Post subject: |
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| visitorq wrote: |
| You're being absurd and you know it. Your definition of freedom is to either accept the status quo or go into exile and live as a hermit. You don't even know what the word liberty means. |
No, that's not my definition of freedom. Rather, it's my suggestion to anyone who "Just wants to be left the Hell alone." You can have that, it's not all that hard to find in this world. It just comes with a cost.
Society isn't about being "Left the Hell alone." Society is about working together. That's a simple truth: as long as you're in a governed region of the world, you aren't going to be left alone. Taxes will be collected, and you'll be expected to follow laws. There are many benefits in return for this imposition, and you clearly think those benefits are worthwhile, which is why you're reticent to leave.
| visitorq wrote: |
| No, you are not allowed to create another currency in the USA. Those internet currencies were dollar based -- meaning you had to buy 'credit' using Federal Reserve dollars. |
No you don't, because you don't buy that credit at all. You earn it by putting goods and services into the system, and redeem it by taking goods and services from the system. That's the whole point: avoiding the usage of dollars.
| visitorq wrote: |
| All monetary transactions required in society are done in dollars. |
I can legally take Korean won and use it to buy Japanese yen in America. That's a monetary transaction, and it isn't done in dollars.
| visitorq wrote: |
| Exchanging to foreign currencies is irrelevant since that currency can only be spent abroad... |
I've bought things with foreign currency in continental United States. Plenty of people have.
No, you show me a link that shows the government is making it mandatory for the average citizen, not that a medical center is insisting it's employees get immunized.
| visitorq wrote: |
| You haven't made any case here, so please stop acting as if you have... |
Feel as you wish on that count.
| visitorq wrote: |
| Give me a break. If you want to believe you're "free" to spend only Fed fraud money, pay taxes to your corrupt eugenicist-infested government, drink your fluoride and get your flu shots, then be my guest. I'm not going along with it. |
Well, right now your choices are:
1) Go along with it quietly (this is what most people do).
2) Go along with it and demand a massive governmental change that will never happen (this is what you're doing).
3) Go along with it and call for moderate governmental change that could plausibly occur (this is what I prefer to do).
4) Reject the system, leave, and stop receiving its benefits.
Yes, I pointed out #4 was an option (and if you really want to just be left alone, it's the best option, but we both know you want more than that), but really, I advocate for #3. The more people that are for moderate, reasonable change, the more likely it is to happen. For example, the more people that can acknowledge the Federal Reserve is a bad institution without taking things to a Libertarian extreme, the more likely other people are to accept it, and the more likely it is to be abolished. Many people are turned off by extremism; try moderation.
| visitorq wrote: |
| What are you on about? I'm not advocating anarchism. |
You're the one who said you just wanted to be left alone, not me. Perhaps you should be more careful with your words?
| visitorq wrote: |
| You are the confused one here... My POV is pretty straightforward: the sole purpose of the government of the USA is to protect the Constitution ... |
And I disagree with that completely, as do many other people in our society. The Constitution is a valuable document. The freedoms it assures are generally good. Government has a far greater role to play than simply upholding and protecting the Constitution, though. If you disagree, and you really want the government to do that and only that, you will never get what you want. Far too many of us want services from our government beyond that for it to ever come to be for any meaningful length of time.
| visitorq wrote: |
| Horsesh_t. |
Okay, so you don't think you're pretty free. I'm sorry, but it just shows how out of touch you are with the world, from both a historic and a realistic standpoint.
| visitorq wrote: |
| I'm allowed to defend the rights of the constitution against government tyranny, and supine, pro-government apologists like yourself can never convince me otherwise. |
That's exactly my point, though. You are allowed to do that, because you're so free. No one here is saying you don't have the right to say what you say. I think you're excessively extreme and, to be frank, wrong in your portrayals of quite a few things, but yes, you have the right to pursue them.
However, you're not going to get what you want; in fact, your behavior actively works against what you want, because it alienates people rather than persuading them. You'd do far better by setting reasonable goals and working towards them in a non-extremist fashion.
| visitorq wrote: |
| So you show your true colors at last: "if you don't like the government tyranny, you don't belong in America". |
No, that's not my point. My point is, "If you just want to be left the Hell alone, you can achieve that by leaving America." Of course you have a place in America, you're an American citizen who is exercising his well-deserved rights. But, right now, according to you, you aren't getting what you want, and as long as you remain a citizen here, you'll never get it. I'm not telling you, "Love it or leave it," I'm saying, "You are only going to get what you claim you want by leaving, so consider it."
This is exactly the sort of hyperbolic extremism I'm talking about when I say this kind of behavior alienates people, by the way.
| visitorq wrote: |
| NON SEQUITUR. You don't even define your terms. What are you calling libertarianism? Defending the US Constitution??? What kind of drivel is that? |
Why is it whenever you're confronted with reasonable moderation, you enter into some sort of Glen Beck-esque freak out?
| visitorq wrote: |
| The corruption needs to be swept away, and we need to revert back to what this country was founded on. |
Corruption being swept away? Great. Reverting back to what this country was founded on? No thanks, we've come a long way since then.
| visitorq wrote: |
| I think you will find that most people agree with me on this obvious fact. |
Quite a few extremists seem to think that the overall public secretly agrees with them and all information to the contrary is just a deception. None the less, one merely needs to look at basic polling on topics like -- for instance -- the possibility of things like the existence of a public option for health care to understand most people think the government has a greater role to play than you describe.
| visitorq wrote: |
| Yeah, looking at history, understanding that corruption always leads to ruination for a country and enslavement (literal or figurative) of the people, and looking at what's going on as we speak, I'd say it couldn't get much worse (without actually hitting the wall that is). |
Well, nothing I can say is going to change your mind on this account. Feel free to go on living your comfortable life, communicating with people all over the globe, unlimited entertainment and information at your finger-tips, with immense and covetted freedoms, as well as more than sufficient food, and continue to insist that it couldn't get worse.
What is figurative enslavement, anyway? |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Mon Aug 24, 2009 6:40 pm Post subject: |
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| Pluto wrote: |
| I really feel I don't know what is best for anyone except for me. |
Why do you make suggestions about government, then? Every time you say we should have less government, you're making a statement about what's best for other people. Other people would have to live with the results of your minimalist government, after all. Hundreds of millions of other people.
I guess you could instead be saying, "I want this form of government so much I simply don't care about the other few hundred million people involved," but I don't think you're that callous. I think you genuinely believe it would be best for the average person.
| Pluto wrote: |
| I don't know what's best for you and you've no idea what is best for me. |
There are facts about what is best for you; if there weren't, you couldn't possibly know what is best for you. If you can know those facts, so can I.
Further, it's very clearly true that at times I can know what is best for you better than you can know yourself. Doctors, psychologists, lawyers, dieticians, all people we hire because they really do in many cases know what is best for us better than we ourselves know.
In short, I really think this claim holds no weight at all. I'm sorry, but you're not some unknowable unknown; other people can know what is best for you, at times better than you do yourself. |
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bacasper
Joined: 26 Mar 2007
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| Posted: Mon Aug 24, 2009 8:28 pm Post subject: |
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| If the Obama administration goes through with prosecuting members of the former administration for their torture-related crimes, then Obama will rate the full star I gave him. |
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visitorq
Joined: 11 Jan 2008
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| Posted: Tue Aug 25, 2009 1:08 am Post subject: |
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| Fox wrote: |
| visitorq wrote: |
| You're being absurd and you know it. Your definition of freedom is to either accept the status quo or go into exile and live as a hermit. You don't even know what the word liberty means. |
No, that's not my definition of freedom. Rather, it's my suggestion to anyone who "Just wants to be left the Hell alone." You can have that, it's not all that hard to find in this world. It just comes with a cost.
Society isn't about being "Left the Hell alone." Society is about working together. That's a simple truth: as long as you're in a governed region of the world, you aren't going to be left alone. Taxes will be collected, and you'll be expected to follow laws. There are many benefits in return for this imposition, and you clearly think those benefits are worthwhile, which is why you're reticent to leave. |
Oh man... how shall I get this basic idea through that thick skull of yours? THE GOVERNMENT IS NOT SOCIETY. Society IS about being left alone, and the point of the constitution is to protect all of our personal freedoms. The sole purpose of government, as defined by our constitution, is to protect and defend these rights. Anything beyond that is tyranny by definition. This is a FACT (go and read it if you don't know), so stop *beep* footing around it.
| Quote: |
| visitorq wrote: |
| No, you are not allowed to create another currency in the USA. Those internet currencies were dollar based -- meaning you had to buy 'credit' using Federal Reserve dollars. |
No you don't, because you don't buy that credit at all. You earn it by putting goods and services into the system, and redeem it by taking goods and services from the system. That's the whole point: avoiding the usage of dollars. |
Wrong. Those currencies were paid for by companies in US dollars (or European currencies) and given to customers. Go read it if you don't know. Those currencies all went bust in no time by the way.
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| visitorq wrote: |
| All monetary transactions required in society are done in dollars. |
I can legally take Korean won and use it to buy Japanese yen in America. That's a monetary transaction, and it isn't done in dollars. |
Wrong. You are not "buying" the other currency, you are exchanging it (for which you pay a fee to the money changer). Do I actually need to explain this?
| Quote: |
| visitorq wrote: |
| Exchanging to foreign currencies is irrelevant since that currency can only be spent abroad... |
I've bought things with foreign currency in continental United States. Plenty of people have. |
Wrong. You may be delusional enough to believe you've done this, but you never have I guarantee you (at least not legally). All foreign currency is first EXCHANGED into dollars (even if done on the spot), then the dollars are spent. You are paying a fee for each dollar exchanged (which eventually makes its way back to the central bank of whichever country it originated from).
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No, you show me a link that shows the government is making it mandatory for the average citizen, not that a medical center is insisting it's employees get immunized.
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Nah, I don't really care if you believe it or not. Evidence is there that they are planning this, and the government lies all the time. Either way, if you actually trust the government, then you're a schmuck, period.
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| visitorq wrote: |
| You haven't made any case here, so please stop acting as if you have... |
Feel as you wish on that count. |
Naturally.
| Quote: |
| visitorq wrote: |
| Give me a break. If you want to believe you're "free" to spend only Fed fraud money, pay taxes to your corrupt eugenicist-infested government, drink your fluoride and get your flu shots, then be my guest. I'm not going along with it. |
Well, right now your choices are:
1) Go along with it quietly (this is what most people do).
2) Go along with it and demand a massive governmental change that will never happen (this is what you're doing).
3) Go along with it and call for moderate governmental change that could plausibly occur (this is what I prefer to do).
4) Reject the system, leave, and stop receiving its benefits. |
Um, the so-called "only" 4 choices you've arbitrarily thrown out there are all worthless to me. Number 5 would be, wait for people to wake up (which they are, slowly but surely), encourage them as best you can by spreading the word around of how corrupt and immoral our government is (which they can basically sense anyway, but they need to get beyond the false left/right wing paradigm and know their true enemy), and join them when the revolution begins.
I now see it as inevitable. Hopefully it won't have to be violent, but the government must be taken down, the criminals held accountable, the economic depression overcome, and a new Constitutionally sound government put in place (with no lobbying or influence from the banker criminals). This will be a revolution in the true sense, since it will be a "re-" evolution back to the form of government our country was founded on and was meant to have. It will make complete sense when it happens.
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| Yes, I pointed out #4 was an option (and if you really want to just be left alone, it's the best option, but we both know you want more than that), but really, I advocate for #3. The more people that are for moderate, reasonable change, the more likely it is to happen. For example, the more people that can acknowledge the Federal Reserve is a bad institution without taking things to a Libertarian extreme, the more likely other people are to accept it, and the more likely it is to be abolished. Many people are turned off by extremism; try moderation. |
Your version of "moderation" is outright conformity. You think it's okay to be dehumanized and robbed by the criminal Fed in broad daylight. You think it's okay to be a slave. That's really too bad for you, I will never accept your point of view, because it's defeatist. I am quite moderate - if I was extreme I'd say, "storm the Bastille" and cut off the heads of every one of traitors in government and the bankers. There are times I actually feel they would deserve it, but I don't advocate it as a first resort. The people need to take back their country and their freedoms to not be taxed into oblivion while their government hands everything over to the banks. I hope a popular movement (comprised of people from all walks of life, including veterans and honest people in high places) will be enough to force the government down.
| Quote: |
| visitorq wrote: |
| What are you on about? I'm not advocating anarchism. |
You're the one who said you just wanted to be left alone, not me. Perhaps you should be more careful with your words? |
So I have to spell everything out for you literally now? I didn't mean being a goddam hermit. I have friends and family too, I want them to be left alone. I want my community at large, my state, and the common public all over the nation to be left the hell alone. People should be free to live how they chose, not be taxed unnecessarily, run businesses, invest and accumulate real capital (not Fed fraud currency issued at interest for nothing) and improve themselves without the parasite bankers and the government coming down on them. All they do is pillage our wealth, place restrictions on us, and try to dumb us down in every way they can; we have no use for their corruption whatsoever.
| Quote: |
| visitorq wrote: |
| You are the confused one here... My POV is pretty straightforward: the sole purpose of the government of the USA is to protect the Constitution ... |
And I disagree with that completely, as do many other people in our society. The Constitution is a valuable document. The freedoms it assures are generally good. Government has a far greater role to play than simply upholding and protecting the Constitution, though. If you disagree, and you really want the government to do that and only that, you will never get what you want. Far too many of us want services from our government beyond that for it to ever come to be for any meaningful length of time. |
You are saying we need to the government to provide our goods and services for us. This is patently FALSE. You have no way of making this case (not that you've even tried, you just take it for granted that your government loves you, despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary).
At any rate, if you are passively against the Constitution, then your opinion is irrelevant to me. If you are actively against it, then you are an enemy of the USA. That's how I look at it.
| Quote: |
| visitorq wrote: |
| Horsesh_t. |
Okay, so you don't think you're pretty free. I'm sorry, but it just shows how out of touch you are with the world, from both a historic and a realistic standpoint.
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"None are more enslaved than those who falsely believe themselves to be free."
You may be slightly more free than people living in China, but barely. Yes, barely. I've already listed a whole bunch of things the government forces you to do (and there are lots more they'd like to be able to do, which if conformists like you had their way, they'd be able). At this point, you're either on the side of defending the constitution, or allowing the government to remove it as an obstacle to their tyranny. If the latter, then you become my enemy, and the enemy of free humanity. Doesn't mean I harbor any violent or punitive thoughts towards you, just that I will do everything in my power to stop you are anyone else from taking away my (and your) Constitutional rights. There are plenty of people who will side with me if/when it comes down to it.
| Quote: |
| visitorq wrote: |
| I'm allowed to defend the rights of the constitution against government tyranny, and supine, pro-government apologists like yourself can never convince me otherwise. |
That's exactly my point, though. You are allowed to do that, because you're so free. No one here is saying you don't have the right to say what you say. I think you're excessively extreme and, to be frank, wrong in your portrayals of quite a few things, but yes, you have the right to pursue them. |
Freedom of speech in the USA is waning. Political correctness is a strong form of censorship. The media also moulds public opinion with propaganda and excludes other voices. If I call Obama a corporate-fascist scumbag, I get called a racist. If I publicly call him a race pimp (which he is), I'll probably get attacked by a mob. It's nowhere near as free as you portray.
| Quote: |
| However, you're not going to get what you want; in fact, your behavior actively works against what you want, because it alienates people rather than persuading them. You'd do far better by setting reasonable goals and working towards them in a non-extremist fashion. |
It's not that you're alienated, it's that you're conformist.
| Quote: |
| visitorq wrote: |
| So you show your true colors at last: "if you don't like the government tyranny, you don't belong in America". |
No, that's not my point. My point is, "If you just want to be left the Hell alone, you can achieve that by leaving America." Of course you have a place in America, you're an American citizen who is exercising his well-deserved rights. But, right now, according to you, you aren't getting what you want, and as long as you remain a citizen here, you'll never get it. I'm not telling you, "Love it or leave it," I'm saying, "You are only going to get what you claim you want by leaving, so consider it." |
The obvious alternative being that you are wrong in your defeatism, and that I (and the rest of the country who value the Constitution above the government) will get our way. You can thank us later.
| Quote: |
| Yeah, looking at history, understanding that corruption always leads to ruination for a country and enslavement (literal or figurative) of the people, and looking at what's going on as we speak, I'd say it couldn't get much worse (without actually hitting the wall that is). |
Blah blah blah, this is just wishful thinking on your part. You are happy with the status quo, happy taking your flu shots, happy voting for Obama (cuz he's such a nice guy  ), faithful that the Fed is working in your best interest and will soon fix the economy, happy going home and watching tv for hours. I get it. You are threatened by the reality I'm presenting to you. Well you're just going to have to deal with it, because it WILL happen. It's already moving in that direction, people are getting pissed off and seeing the government for what it is. There are still plenty of slaves, who want to stay plugged into the matrix and pretend everything will be fine, but they will always stay on the sidelines. The ones who move against the government will be in the right, have the Constitution on their side, and they will have their way, just you wait and see...
| Quote: |
| Well, nothing I can say is going to change your mind on this account. Feel free to go on living your comfortable life, communicating with people all over the globe, unlimited entertainment and information at your finger-tips, with immense and covetted freedoms, as well as more than sufficient food, and continue to insist that it couldn't get worse. |
I give all credit where it is due. The high standard of living we enjoy is a result of the hard work and innovation of the American people. We deserve most of it. The government is selling us out, working with the banks to take it all away from us. This is a fact. Just wait until you lose your job and your house, then get back to me.
| Quote: |
| What is figurative enslavement, anyway? |
I dunno, walking around all day with a stupid smile on your face believing all the lies and propaganda you are inundated with, doing what you are told. Not knowing who your true enemy is... |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Tue Aug 25, 2009 2:15 am Post subject: |
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Visitorq and Fox, I created a thread for you guys and anyone else who wants to debate libertarianism/the proper role of government.
Meanwhile, bascasper wishes upon his star that Obama might bring supposed war criminals to justice.
Any other Obama-related musings? |
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visitorq
Joined: 11 Jan 2008
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| Posted: Tue Aug 25, 2009 2:19 am Post subject: |
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| Kuros wrote: |
Visitorq and Fox, I created a thread for you guys and anyone else who wants to debate libertarianism/the proper role of government.
Meanwhile, bascasper wishes upon his star that Obama might bring supposed war criminals to justice.
Any other Obama-related musings? |
Thanks, I was starting to get disoriented from all the quote boxes  |
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bacasper
Joined: 26 Mar 2007
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| Posted: Tue Aug 25, 2009 4:00 am Post subject: |
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| Kuros wrote: |
Visitorq and Fox, I created a thread for you guys and anyone else who wants to debate libertarianism/the proper role of government.
Meanwhile, bascasper wishes upon his star that Obama might bring supposed war criminals to justice.
Any other Obama-related musings? |
Lest anyone get the wrong idea that I am completely anti-Obama, I believe in giving credit where it is due.
As far as I know, Obama has NEVER hijacked a thread.
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Pluto
Joined: 19 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Thu Aug 27, 2009 7:12 am Post subject: |
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Re: The Obama Presidency so far.
I have yet to vote, but it's more or less because I still want to give Obama the benefit of the doubt. He hasn't done a good job so far. I found his decision to bail out the banks and their respective insurance companies to be a huge mistake. When pressed about it, he blamed the previous admin. by saying they started it. Incredibly stupid. I largely think that Obama is having a lot of trouble with his signature issue, health care, largely because of TARP II and the bank bailouts; nobody trusts him. His biggest problem is the advice he has solicited. I find his decision to listen to Geithner as opposed to Volker to be disappointing to say the least.
Off topic a bit: Irt to B. Bernanke's reappointment as fed chairman; I feel Larry Summers was the better choice. I know that even some of Bernanke's biggest critics like Nouriel Roubini aka "Dr. Doom" have come out swinging for Bernanke's reappointment probably because they found him to better than Summers. From my understanding, one of the bigger reasons people didn't want Summers to be Fed Chair is because he's a complete dick. This is true, L. Summers is a complete dick. However, being a complete dick shouldn't preclude one from being Fed Chair. Summers is also very independent, and he is probably the only person in the Obama admin. who isn't star struck by Obama. Point being, when the time comes to raise interest rates, I don't have much faith that a Bernanke Fed will do the right thing. I think Summers would know better when to tighten the spigot than Bernanke. |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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| Posted: Thu Aug 27, 2009 9:08 am Post subject: |
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^ re: Summers.. You're brave..
Btw, Summers was a part-owner of RGE, Nouriel Roubini's firm. The web is vast. But your point is taken. You might be right. |
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
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| Posted: Thu Aug 27, 2009 11:57 am Post subject: |
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| bacasper wrote: |
| Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee wrote: |
| bacasper wrote: |
If I am ticking off
| Joo who wrote: |
| One good thing is that he will eventually cause a fight between the stupid liberals and the creepy Ron Paul followers |
I must be doing something right 
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You discounted the possibility that I liked your posts on this thread- sort of. |
Of course I discount such a slim possibility. If it were true, you'd have to explain in detail (WITHOUT cutting and pasting 10 pages, please).
But I will say
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| If you liked Bush, you'll love Obama. |
Gopher: So I see there is nothing new under the sun. |
| Quote: |
We therefore are at a good point to stop and consider not what U.S. President Barack Obama will do in the realm of foreign policy, but what he has done and is doing. As we have mentioned before, the single most remarkable thing about Obama�s foreign policy is how consistent it is with the policies of former President George W. Bush. This is not surprising. Presidents operate in the world of constraints; their options are limited. Still, it is worth pausing to note how little Obama has deviated from the Bush foreign policy. |
http://www.stratfor.com/weekly/20090824_obamas_foreign_policy_end_beginning
Hey Casper, True or not? |
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bacasper
Joined: 26 Mar 2007
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| Posted: Thu Aug 27, 2009 11:04 pm Post subject: |
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| Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee wrote: |
| bacasper wrote: |
| Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee wrote: |
| bacasper wrote: |
If I am ticking off
| Joo who wrote: |
| One good thing is that he will eventually cause a fight between the stupid liberals and the creepy Ron Paul followers |
I must be doing something right
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You discounted the possibility that I liked your posts on this thread- sort of. |
Of course I discount such a slim possibility. If it were true, you'd have to explain in detail (WITHOUT cutting and pasting 10 pages, please).
But I will say
| Quote: |
| If you liked Bush, you'll love Obama. |
Gopher: So I see there is nothing new under the sun. |
| Quote: |
We therefore are at a good point to stop and consider not what U.S. President Barack Obama will do in the realm of foreign policy, but what he has done and is doing. As we have mentioned before, the single most remarkable thing about Obama�s foreign policy is how consistent it is with the policies of former President George W. Bush. This is not surprising. Presidents operate in the world of constraints; their options are limited. Still, it is worth pausing to note how little Obama has deviated from the Bush foreign policy. |
http://www.stratfor.com/weekly/20090824_obamas_foreign_policy_end_beginning
Hey Casper, True or not? |
Yeah, Joo. Remember way back when you were worried about Obama and I told you Obama's policy would be barely distinguishable from Bush's, and you said, "Well then maybe he won't be so bad" or words to that effect?
It is always nice to see one's words proven true. |
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bacasper
Joined: 26 Mar 2007
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| Posted: Tue Sep 01, 2009 7:47 pm Post subject: |
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Even the American people are coming around.
Obama Ratings at All-Time Low, May Fall Further
Monday, August 31, 2009 6:58 PM
By: Jim Meyers
Public opinion pollster Scott Rasmussen tells Newsmax that opposition to President Barack Obama's healthcare reform plan is "weighing down" his job approval rating � which is now at an all-time low.
Rasmussen also declared that if the economy does not improve over the next year, Obama's approval numbers will deteriorate even further and Democrats will suffer in the 2010 elections.
"The good news for the president is that support for the plan has stopped falling. The bad news is most Americans are opposed.
"Adding to the troubles for the administration is that people who have strong opinions are even more likely to be opposed. Just 23 percent of Americans strongly support the proposed healthcare reform legislation, and 43 percent are strongly opposed.
"This is weighing down the president's job approval rating. As of Monday morning he's at the lowest level yet � just 46 percent of all Americans say they approve of the way he's doing his job."
The decline in Obama's approval ratings "began in a noticeable way around the Fourth of July when some employment numbers came out that were less favorable than expected, and people began to have some doubts about the economy," Rasmussen added.
"Always there's a correlation between a president's approval and economic performance. The healthcare debate, however, seemed to capture a lot of frustration that has been building among the American people, and it's more than about healthcare.
"People were upset a year ago when the Bush administration pushed through bailouts when the American public overwhelmingly opposed them. People opposed the bailouts when they continued in the Obama [administration]. They continued to oppose things like the takeover of General Motors and Chrysler. They don�t think the stimulus package worked very well. Taxpayers didn't like the cash for clunkers program.
"Finally when the healthcare legislation came in time for the August recess, people were just saying: Somebody's got to listen to us. And the president is suffering as a result."
Walter asked how Obama's approval numbers will impact the fate of healthcare reform.
"Certainly the better a president's ratings are, the better his ability to push legislation through, and that's especially true if you think about some of the more nervous members of his own party," Rasmussen said.
"There's a number of blue dog Democrats in the House who probably don't want to be mentioning the president in their re-election campaigns at this point in time...
"Right now the president seems to have a choice. He can scale back greatly his healthcare reform ambitions, move to a more centrist approach, work on some more modest reforms that would drive down the cost of healthcare. If he did that, his numbers might be a little stronger among those in the political center, but his base would be very unhappy.
"On the other hand, Democrats are the only group right now strongly supporting healthcare reform, and if the president tries to satisfy his base by pushing for an aggressive plan, then he's likely to alienate a lot of people in the center. That is going to cause problems for Democrats in 2010."
Asked if Obama is likely to see a rise in his approval numbers in the coming months, or a continuing decline, Rasmussen said:
"If the economy continues to struggle as we head into the 2010 elections, with unemployment above 10 percent, and General Motors is back asking for more bailout money and is losing market share, then the president's numbers will be quite a bit lower and the president's party will suffer in the midterm elections."
Wasn't it just a couple of months ago that people here were talking about the end of the Republican Party? |
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
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| Posted: Tue Sep 01, 2009 11:50 pm Post subject: |
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| bacasper wrote: |
| Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee wrote: |
| bacasper wrote: |
| Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee wrote: |
| bacasper wrote: |
If I am ticking off
| Joo who wrote: |
| One good thing is that he will eventually cause a fight between the stupid liberals and the creepy Ron Paul followers |
I must be doing something right
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You discounted the possibility that I liked your posts on this thread- sort of. |
Of course I discount such a slim possibility. If it were true, you'd have to explain in detail (WITHOUT cutting and pasting 10 pages, please).
But I will say
| Quote: |
| If you liked Bush, you'll love Obama. |
Gopher: So I see there is nothing new under the sun. |
| Quote: |
We therefore are at a good point to stop and consider not what U.S. President Barack Obama will do in the realm of foreign policy, but what he has done and is doing. As we have mentioned before, the single most remarkable thing about Obama�s foreign policy is how consistent it is with the policies of former President George W. Bush. This is not surprising. Presidents operate in the world of constraints; their options are limited. Still, it is worth pausing to note how little Obama has deviated from the Bush foreign policy. |
http://www.stratfor.com/weekly/20090824_obamas_foreign_policy_end_beginning
Hey Casper, True or not? |
Yeah, Joo. Remember way back when you were worried about Obama and I told you Obama's policy would be barely distinguishable from Bush's, and you said, "Well then maybe he won't be so bad" or words to that effect?
It is always nice to see one's words proven true. |
I think I said at the time that no one knew what his views actually were. |
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