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kabrams
Joined: 15 Mar 2008
Location: your Dad's house
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 Posted: Mon Aug 31, 2009 7:50 pm Post subject: Concerning sex: Can "No" mean "Yes"? |
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I found this appropriate given the other thread in General Discussion where some people believed that going to a hotel room = assumption/expectation of sex.
http://www.washingtoncitypaper.com/blogs/sexist/2009/08/28/sexist-beatdown-no-means-yes-not-just-for-frat-dudes-anymore/
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Last month, Dan Kahan of Yale University Law School released a study examining the cultural factors at play in popular reactions to rape cases. Kahan�s research question was straightforward: If a person voices �repeated verbal objections� to a sex act, is it rape?
In other words, who among us thinks that �no� really means �no,� and who thinks that �no� is just a handy excuse for loose women? As it turns out, knowing that �no� means �no� has little to do with your gender, and a lot to do with what you think about gender.
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Read the source to understand this next quote:
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| The defendant testified in his own behalf. He admitted that he initiate[d] the first physical contact, but added that the victim warmly responded to his advances by passionately returning his kisses. He conceded that she was continually �whispering � no�s,� but claimed that she did so while �amorously . . . passionately� moaning. In effect, he took such protests to be thinly veiled acts of encouragement. |
So the question is, if someone repeatedly says "no" or "stop", but doesn't physically fight back, is it "rape"?
(Of course it is, but I'm just trying to understand the other side that says that it is not). |
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crossmr
Joined: 22 Nov 2008
Location: Hwayangdong, Seoul
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| Posted: Mon Aug 31, 2009 8:42 pm Post subject: |
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| There was a case somewhere, Canada or the US, can't recall where the girl went along with it willingly and the guy was still convicted because he'd threatened her. She felt like she couldn't run and was scared to say no. |
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asams
Joined: 17 Nov 2008
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| Posted: Mon Aug 31, 2009 9:29 pm Post subject: |
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Here's my problem with rape cases:
It only involves two people - it's your word against theirs. What is to stop someone from claiming rape just because they're pissed off or ashamed that they had a one night stand? I realize they have rape kits and it's probably hard to get a conviction otherwise, but doesn't it seem like rape is a hard one to prove or disprove?
Let the flaming begin |
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crossmr
Joined: 22 Nov 2008
Location: Hwayangdong, Seoul
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| Posted: Mon Aug 31, 2009 9:37 pm Post subject: |
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| asams wrote: |
Here's my problem with rape cases:
It only involves two people - it's your word against theirs. What is to stop someone from claiming rape just because they're pissed off or ashamed that they had a one night stand? I realize they have rape kits and it's probably hard to get a conviction otherwise, but doesn't it seem like rape is a hard one to prove or disprove?
Let the flaming begin |
or say when nothing happened and someone just wants to get back at someone because they're mad at them. Real rape is terrible, but the system is currently horribly unbalanced. Girls basically have a carte blanche to accuse anyone of anything and they know they're protected. Only rarely do they ever get convicted if they lie and they only get a slap on the wrist. Meanwhile they've ruined someone's life, because there is no protection for them. Even if they're innocent their face was still all over the news. |
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kabrams
Joined: 15 Mar 2008
Location: your Dad's house
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| Posted: Mon Aug 31, 2009 9:54 pm Post subject: |
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| crossmr wrote: |
| asams wrote: |
Here's my problem with rape cases:
It only involves two people - it's your word against theirs. What is to stop someone from claiming rape just because they're pissed off or ashamed that they had a one night stand? I realize they have rape kits and it's probably hard to get a conviction otherwise, but doesn't it seem like rape is a hard one to prove or disprove?
Let the flaming begin |
or say when nothing happened and someone just wants to get back at someone because they're mad at them. Real rape is terrible, but the system is currently horribly unbalanced. Girls basically have a carte blanche to accuse anyone of anything and they know they're protected. Only rarely do they ever get convicted if they lie and they only get a slap on the wrist. Meanwhile they've ruined someone's life, because there is no protection for them. Even if they're innocent their face was still all over the news. |
I honestly wonder why so many people believe it's truly "easy" for a woman to say a man has raped her.
It's NOT easy, in many instances, to prove rape, and often times, the burden rests on the woman.
Stats on false rape reports are so wildly different from study to study (from virtually 0% to near 50%) that I wonder why "false rape" is such a huge genuine fear, and it's ALWAYS what people bring up. |
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kabrams
Joined: 15 Mar 2008
Location: your Dad's house
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| Posted: Mon Aug 31, 2009 9:55 pm Post subject: |
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| asams wrote: |
Here's my problem with rape cases:
It only involves two people - it's your word against theirs. What is to stop someone from claiming rape just because they're pissed off or ashamed that they had a one night stand? I realize they have rape kits and it's probably hard to get a conviction otherwise, but doesn't it seem like rape is a hard one to prove or disprove?
Let the flaming begin |
Or what's to stop a man from raping a woman and then telling the cops "She's just mad because I didn't want a relationship!" |
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asams
Joined: 17 Nov 2008
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| Posted: Mon Aug 31, 2009 10:01 pm Post subject: |
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| kabrams wrote: |
| crossmr wrote: |
| asams wrote: |
Here's my problem with rape cases:
It only involves two people - it's your word against theirs. What is to stop someone from claiming rape just because they're pissed off or ashamed that they had a one night stand? I realize they have rape kits and it's probably hard to get a conviction otherwise, but doesn't it seem like rape is a hard one to prove or disprove?
Let the flaming begin |
or say when nothing happened and someone just wants to get back at someone because they're mad at them. Real rape is terrible, but the system is currently horribly unbalanced. Girls basically have a carte blanche to accuse anyone of anything and they know they're protected. Only rarely do they ever get convicted if they lie and they only get a slap on the wrist. Meanwhile they've ruined someone's life, because there is no protection for them. Even if they're innocent their face was still all over the news. |
I honestly wonder why so many people believe it's truly "easy" for a woman to say a man has raped her.
It's NOT easy, in many instances, to prove rape, and often times, the burden rests on the woman.
Stats on false rape reports are so wildly different from study to study (from virtually 0% to near 50%) that I wonder why "false rape" is such a huge genuine fear, and it's ALWAYS what people bring up. |
It's our sex speaking. Women know what they mean when they say 'no', men do not. If you mean 'NO' then say it in a way that it can't be misconstrued. Also, men need to be more careful. If a woman says 'no' then maybe we should take it at face value and stop right there. If she meant 'yes' then that's her fault and she's ruined a good night for both parties. The onus falls squarely on the woman's shoulders in this situation - she is seen as the physically weaker sex therefore she is the one who decides what happens. |
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Hardy Boy
Joined: 03 Jul 2004
Location: I live in a shoe. Made in B.C., Northern Vancouver Island
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| Posted: Mon Aug 31, 2009 10:03 pm Post subject: |
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| "stop" means stop |
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kabrams
Joined: 15 Mar 2008
Location: your Dad's house
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| Posted: Mon Aug 31, 2009 10:07 pm Post subject: |
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| asams wrote: |
| kabrams wrote: |
| crossmr wrote: |
| asams wrote: |
Here's my problem with rape cases:
It only involves two people - it's your word against theirs. What is to stop someone from claiming rape just because they're pissed off or ashamed that they had a one night stand? I realize they have rape kits and it's probably hard to get a conviction otherwise, but doesn't it seem like rape is a hard one to prove or disprove?
Let the flaming begin |
or say when nothing happened and someone just wants to get back at someone because they're mad at them. Real rape is terrible, but the system is currently horribly unbalanced. Girls basically have a carte blanche to accuse anyone of anything and they know they're protected. Only rarely do they ever get convicted if they lie and they only get a slap on the wrist. Meanwhile they've ruined someone's life, because there is no protection for them. Even if they're innocent their face was still all over the news. |
I honestly wonder why so many people believe it's truly "easy" for a woman to say a man has raped her.
It's NOT easy, in many instances, to prove rape, and often times, the burden rests on the woman.
Stats on false rape reports are so wildly different from study to study (from virtually 0% to near 50%) that I wonder why "false rape" is such a huge genuine fear, and it's ALWAYS what people bring up. |
It's our sex speaking. Women know what they mean when they say 'no', men do not. If you mean 'NO' then say it in a way that it can't be misconstrued. Also, men need to be more careful. If a woman says 'no' then maybe we should take it at face value and stop right there. If she meant 'yes' then that's her fault and she's ruined a good night for both parties. The onus falls squarely on the woman's shoulders in this situation - she is seen as the physically weaker sex therefore she is the one who decides what happens. |
If a woman is constantly saying "no" while you're "having sex" (raping) with her, I don't think there's a "maybe" about it. You don't need extra thinking to figure out she more than likely wants you to stop, and even if that's not her intention, you should stop anyway.
Seriously, reading that article, you would think that boy was brain dead. She said no, over and over again, yet for some reason, boys have gotten it into their heads (maybe through their dads or old fashioned moms) that "no" really means "yes" and that she'll "come around".
You wouldn't believe how many girls "have sex" like this. I hear their stories and I'm like, wow, that's how you had sex? Wow. |
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asams
Joined: 17 Nov 2008
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| Posted: Mon Aug 31, 2009 10:13 pm Post subject: |
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| He conceded that she was continually �whispering � no�s,� but claimed that she did so while �amorously . . . passionately� moaning. In effect, he took such protests to be thinly veiled acts of encouragement. |
We'll never settle this because you're a girl and I'm a guy, but to me it seems confusing that she is saying 'no' when she is still participating. If a girl says 'No' and stops kissing, etc. then it means "NO" but if she is still going along with the kissing and whatnot while saying 'no' does it really mean 'No'? Women are the masters of ambiguity so it's hard to tell |
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Underwaterbob
Joined: 08 Jan 2005
Location: In Cognito
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| Posted: Mon Aug 31, 2009 10:33 pm Post subject: |
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| He conceded that she was continually �whispering � no�s,� but claimed that she did so while �amorously . . . passionately� moaning. In effect, he took such protests to be thinly veiled acts of encouragement. |
I agree that no means no, but this argument implies that if a woman is telling a man "no" and still kissing him then it's his fault that they're kissing. Where do we draw the line? What if she's unzipping his shorts and telling him no? What if she's fellating him and telling him no? Is it the man's responsibility to control her hormones as well as his own? |
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samcheokguy
Joined: 02 Nov 2008
Location: Samcheok G-do
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| Posted: Mon Aug 31, 2009 10:35 pm Post subject: |
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| these 'hypothetical cases' of rape just never happen to me, so they can't be common. (unless I'm living a too sheltered life) |
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OnTheOtherSide
Joined: 29 Feb 2008
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| Posted: Mon Aug 31, 2009 10:36 pm Post subject: |
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The ladies say yes to me every time, so I don;t have that problem 
I am the sexiest man alive. Fact. |
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The Gipkik
Joined: 30 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Mon Aug 31, 2009 10:47 pm Post subject: |
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This is a tough one. I usually go with anything more than 2 no's clearly means no. Below that it is open to interpretation, but it depends on the girl. Some girls are more verbal than others and speak what they mean the first time and that is that. Others when it comes to sex put their linguistic faculties a little lower on the ladder of communication as their feelings grow stronger. What I mean is that some people communicate with their bodies or through sounds, etc. over and above the linguistic faculty. That is part of why this yes/no debate will never have a clear solution. That said, too many men put their feelings and needs so high on the ladder of communication, that they are oblivious of what the woman is communicating no matter how it is presented. This becomes the problem--and it is dangerous territory.
My belief is that most people desperately need an emotional education. How to read and understand their own feelings and others. This is the education that everyone is expected to come to terms with by themselves, but many, many people languish for years in an emotional purgatory, constantly repeating the same mistakes and being confronted by the same problems incessantly. Apparently, such an education is impractical and involves unique experiences. Yet, the emotions, no matter what the experience tend to overlap and are recognizable to most people. If someone can find a way into reaching the emotions in this way, they'll change the world. |
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kabrams
Joined: 15 Mar 2008
Location: your Dad's house
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| Posted: Mon Aug 31, 2009 10:51 pm Post subject: |
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| asams wrote: |
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| He conceded that she was continually �whispering � no�s,� but claimed that she did so while �amorously . . . passionately� moaning. In effect, he took such protests to be thinly veiled acts of encouragement. |
We'll never settle this because you're a girl and I'm a guy, but to me it seems confusing that she is saying 'no' when she is still participating. If a girl says 'No' and stops kissing, etc. then it means "NO" but if she is still going along with the kissing and whatnot while saying 'no' does it really mean 'No'? Women are the masters of ambiguity so it's hard to tell |
This is so sad to me that you think she was being ambiguous.
She wasn't participating, she was being raped, and was in shock. She said no, he continued anyway, and her brain shut down. She was paralyzed. The boy, thinking only about himself, didn't realize or didn't care about his partner. He continued anyway. She didn't even move the entire time. That's so messed up.
Not ever victim of rape is screaming or clawing to get away. Some people just freeze in shock or fear.
Did you even read the article?
Her "moans" were moans of fear and shock, and not of pleasure. Kinda hard to tell if you're too busy raping someone.
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I agree that no means no, but this argument implies that if a woman is telling a man "no" and still kissing him then it's his fault that they're kissing. Where do we draw the line? What if she's unzipping his shorts and telling him no? What if she's fellating him and telling him no? Is it the man's responsibility to control her hormones as well as his own? |
Did you even READ the article?
This argument is not talking about a woman who is actively participating in a sex act. Good God. |
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