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7 Myths about Alternative Energy
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Sergio Stefanuto



Joined: 14 May 2009
Location: UK

PostPosted: Mon Aug 31, 2009 1:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Manner of Speaking wrote:
France's nuclear program has nothing to do with its lower greenhouse gas emissions...France did not implement its nuclear energy program because it was interested in reducing greenhouse gas emissions. France made a purely military and political decision beginning in the 1960s to depend primarily on nuclear energy to support its nuclear weapons program; in the 1960s global warming was just a blip on the horizon. They made a purely military decision, regardless of the cost of switching to nuclear energy and regardless of the fact that investments in energy conservation and alternative energy sources could have provided the same thing at a lower cost. So France does not make a good example for the rest of the world to follow.

Contrast this with Japan...Japan does use a lot of nuclear energy, but that's because their population is almost 3 times that of France's. Japan promotes energy conservation heavily so that the average Japanese person uses half the electricity of the average American, with an equal or better lifestyle.


Again, you've completely drifted from the point.

France has the lowest CO2 emissions in Europe other than Sweden (which uses nuclear and hydro-electro exclusively, and has a small population). That's because France employs nuclear power extensively. Australia, by contrast, has the highest per capita CO2 emissions of all OECD countries. That's because Australia doesn't use nuclear power at all.

Conclusion: using nuclear power is an excellent way for a first world country to produce less CO2 than would otherwise be the case.

/thread

Manner of Speaking wrote:
One "link" by itself does not 'rubbish' energy conservation; energy conservation economically, ecologically and mathematically has consistently made the most sense as the best way to reduce energy and electricity consumption. That's why cell phones, televisions, washing machines, computer monitors, and a host of other products have consistently gotten better quality over time while simultaneously reducing the amount of energy used in both their manufacture and daily use.


Energy conservation means increased energy-use. As such, it is entirely useless, by itself, in cutting CO2 emissions.

Cellphones, TV's, etc, all emerged thanks to energy conservation. And this technology coincided with the era of the biggest CO2 emissions.

Energy conservation doesn't mean cutting emissions. It means greater energy-use and more emissions in the absence of carbon-free energy.

Manner of Speaking wrote:
I'm sorry, but quite frankly you don't know very much about the issue, and as a result don't know what you are talking about. Of course energy use will continue to grow into the future...but the question is whether the energy use curve will be steep or shallow. At present the curve is steep because governments - not all - have consistently disregarded energy conservation as the best-use policy option in the pursuit of economic growth. Things are starting to change, however, and President Obama's policies and programs to promote energy conservation and alternative energy are a good example. But energy conservation is not a priority in countries like China, even though efficient energy use would provide a greater economic benefit per dollar invested.


So, to use your critique of nuclear power against you (that "there'd be nuclear power plants all over the place by now"......), why have governments "consistently disregarded energy conservation as the best-use policy option in the pursuit of economic growth"?

I've already debunked energy conservation with my link. Here it is again: http://www.sone.org.uk/images/stories/pdf/energy-conservation.pdf

If you want to incessantly repeat the blessings that energy conservation, alone, will bring - which appears to be your argument - you'd better tackle the counter-arguments in that link. Simple common sense and basic enonomic literacy are more than enough to rubbish your energy conservation romanticism. It also might help to provide some scientific evidence as to how energy conservation, alone, can deal with a rapidly increasing population and demand for energy.

Manner of Speaking wrote:
And it isn't all clear that for all countries, energy use leading to CO2 emissions will continue to grow into the future. Iceland, for example, has set a government policy to rely entirely on geothermal energy by 2050, and intends to ban fossil-fuel-powered vehicles by that time. So their economy and energy use may continue to grow, but their net CO2 emissions will decrease.


How do these facts support your view on energy conservation?

Manner of Speaking wrote:
Nope, you're wrong. The basic technology hasn't changed


Your assertion was that "the technology has not changed"" - with specific reference to plants and their costs. Refutation followed by subject change - again!

Manner of Speaking continued to waffle:

Quote:
Nuclear power plants work by clustering an array of uranium fuel bundles which contain a certain porportion of U-238 to U-235 a certain distance from each other, surrounding the array with a neutron shield to build up a desired density of neutron flux, and running a coolant through the array to carry away the heat resulting from the nuclear reaction.

That's all there is to it.


And?

Manner of Speaking wrote:
The reason why you're so upset at my statements is that nuclear power advocates tend to be a bit like religious fundamentalists. They "get religion" and see nuclear energy as the be-all and end-all to all the world's probems...even though if this were true there'd be nuclear power plants all over the place by now. It's more of a psychological issue than anything else.


The only psychological issue I have is an utter hatred of repetitive leftist windbags who posit fundamentally-false arguments against standard science in the name of their heinous, hippy ideology.

Manner of Speaking wrote:
It's hard to become a Bill Gates by selling home insulation or solar panels.


....particularly when home insulation and solar panels are more deadly than nuclear power plants

(so glad you brought that topic up, btw Mr. Green Your beloved energy conservation kills more people than nuke power! Rolling Eyes )
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Sergio Stefanuto



Joined: 14 May 2009
Location: UK

PostPosted: Mon Aug 31, 2009 1:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If nuclear power is uneconomical, as Manner of Speaking alleges, why, then

Quote:
over the next decade, the world is expected to build 180 nuclear power plants, up from just 39 between 1999 and today"[/i]?

A reactor currently under construction in Tennessee is the first of at least a dozen nuclear plants planned in the U.S. over the next decade or so.

But the driving force is China, whose gangbusters economy requires ever more energy. Beijing says it wants to lift nuclear-generated power from its current 11 gigawatts to 86 gigawatts by 2020

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1914705,00.html
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Manner of Speaking



Joined: 09 Jan 2003

PostPosted: Mon Aug 31, 2009 3:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sergio Stefanuto wrote:
Manner of Speaking wrote:
The reason why you're so upset at my statements is that nuclear power advocates tend to be a bit like religious fundamentalists. They "get religion" and see nuclear energy as the be-all and end-all to all the world's probems...even though if this were true there'd be nuclear power plants all over the place by now. It's more of a psychological issue than anything else.


The only psychological issue I have is an utter hatred of repetitive leftist windbags who posit fundamentally-false arguments against standard science in the name of their heinous, hippy ideology.


Thank you for proving my point. Laughing
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Sergio Stefanuto



Joined: 14 May 2009
Location: UK

PostPosted: Mon Aug 31, 2009 4:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Manner of Speaking wrote:

Thank you for rebutting all my points Laughing


(fixed)

You're welcome

Sergio's the name. Edumacation's the game
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Manner of Speaking



Joined: 09 Jan 2003

PostPosted: Mon Aug 31, 2009 9:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nuclear energy is to the Right what solar energy is to the Left: Religious devotion in practice, a wonderful technology in theory, but an economic white elephant in fact (some crossovers on both sides notwithstanding). When the day comes that the electricity from solar or nuclear power plants is worth more than the costs associated with generating it, I will be as happy as the next person. But that day is not on the horizon and government policies can't accelerate the economic clock.

Many free market advocates support nuclear because it costs less to generate nuclear power than it does to generate electricity from any other source (save, perhaps, hydroelectric power), thanks to nuclear's low operation and maintenance costs. However, someone has to first pay for-and build-these plants and the simple fact has always been that nuclear has very high, upfront construction costs ranging from $6-9 billion. By contrast, gas plants cost only a few hundred million dollars to build and coal a couple of billion depending upon the capacity and type of plant.

This raises the opportunity and risk costs of nuclear, making it unattractive to investors. Capital-intensive power facilities take longer to build, which means that investors have to defer returns for longer than if they had invested elsewhere. In addition, electricity markets have a very peculiar pricing mechanism that makes it harder for nuclear to maximize returns compared to gas-powered or other plants.

In essence, there are two electricity markets: a market for base-load power (electricity sold 24-hours a day) and a market for peak power (electricity sold as needed during peak demand periods like hot summer days). Much of the demand for new power-and thus much of the profit available to investors today-is found in the peak market. But nuclear power plant construction costs are so high that it would take a very, very long time for nuclear facilities to pay for themselves if they only operated during high demand periods.

Hence, nuclear power plants have always been only profitable in base-load markets. Gas-fired power plants, on the other hand, can be profitable in either market because not only are their upfront costs low but it is much easier to turn them off or on unlike nuclear.

Nuclear's high up-front costs don't just mean delayed profits, it also means nuclear has always been a more risky investment. In the US, 20 states have scrapped policies that used to allow investors to charge rates that would guarantee their money back. This means that investors in new nuclear power plants are making a multi-billion dollar bet on disciplined construction schedules, accurate cost estimates, and the future economic health of the region.

Bet wrong on any of the above and the company may well go bankrupt. Bet wrong on a gas-fired power plant, on the other hand, and corporate life will go on because there is less to lose given that the construction costs associated with gas-fired power plants are a small fraction of those associated with nuclear plants.

One aspect that reflects this difference is the "levelized" cost-the price that must be received by owners to cover fixed and variable costs while returning profits to investors. This cost is substantially higher for nuclear than coal-fired electricity. Tufts economist Gilbert Metcalf, for instance, has calculated that, under current law, the levelized cost of nuclear power in the United States is 4.31� per kilowatt hour (kWh). Coal-fired electricity, on the other hand, cost 3.53� per kWh and "clean" coal cost 3.55�.

But even these nuclear estimates are almost certainly too low. That's because Metcalf uses an "overnight cost" (construction costs minus financing costs) figure of $2,014 per installed kilowatt (kW) which is much too low. The Energy Information Administration (EIA) puts this cost at $2,475 per kW at present-although even this figure is suspicious because it relies on a world-wide average for nuclear power plant construction-including the grossly unreliable estimates from state-managed economies.

The Standard & Poor's overnight cost estimate of $4,000 is likely the most reliable because it is based on nuclear plant construction costs in economies where labor and material costs are very similar to those found in the United States. Industry analyst Jim Harding, who uses overnight cost figures similar to Standard & Poor's, puts the levelized costs for new nuclear power generation at 12-15c per kWh right now.

Investors are also wary of nuclear plants because of the construction delays and cost over-runs that have historically plagued the industry. For instance, the Areva/Siemens nuclear power plant being built for TVO in Finland-the first nuclear power plant to be built in a relatively free energy market in decades-once scheduled to be operational within 54 months, is now two years behind schedule and 60% over budget. Nor have these construction delays had anything to do with regulatory obstruction or organized public opposition.

If nuclear power plants are so uneconomical, how then to explain the blizzard of permit applications for the construction and operation of new nuclear power plants that the Nuclear Regulatory Commission has received? Easy: These applications cost little and oblige utilities to do nothing. Industry analysts maintain that federal approvals will not translate into actual plants without a federal promise to private equity markets that, in case of default by power plants, the taxpayer will make good on the full sum of all bad nuclear loans.

Nuclear supporters often counter that construction costs would be a lot lower if regulators didn't impose insanely demanding safety standards, byzantine and time-consuming permitting processes, or endless public hearings, any one of which could result in the plant being stopped in its tracks. Investors would also be more likely to invest, we're told, if there were a high-level waste repository in place or more political support for nuclear power.

Given all of this, how do France, India, China, and Russia build cost-effective nuclear power plants? They don't. Government officials in those countries, not private investors, decide what is built. Either these governments build expensive plants and shove them down the market's throat-or they build shoddy plants and hope for the best.

Conservatives project nuclear power as the solution to greenhouse gas emissions. But they should resist that argument. If we slapped a carbon tax on the economy to "internalize" the costs associated with greenhouse gas emissions-the ideal way to address emissions if we find such policies necessary-then the "right" carbon tax would likely be about $2 per ton of emissions according to a survey of the academic literature by climate economist Richard Tol.

That's not enough to make nuclear energy competitive against coal or natural gas according to calculations performed by the Electric Power Research Institute. In any case, if nuclear offers a cost-effective way to reduce greenhouse gas emissions, it should have to prove it by competing against alternatives in some future carbon-constrained market.

There's nothing new about today's rhetoric about the supposed "nuclear renaissance." Back in 1954, GE maintained: "In five years-certainly within 10-a number of them (nuclear plants) will be operating at about the same cost as those using coal. They will be privately financed, built without government subsidy." Now, 54 years later, the talk of "renaissance" is back-as are promises about the imminent economic competitiveness of nuclear. For those of us who have been around for a while, it's the same old story. Advocates have been waving the pom-poms about a nuclear renaissance or a nuclear age, for ages. Unfortunately or otherwise, there's never been anything but kleenex under the pom-poms.
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Fox



Joined: 04 Mar 2009

PostPosted: Mon Aug 31, 2009 10:24 pm    Post subject: