Site Search:
 
Speak Korean Now!
Teach English Abroad and Get Paid to see the World!
Korean Job Discussion Forums Forum Index Korean Job Discussion Forums
"The Internet's Meeting Place for ESL/EFL Teachers from Around the World!"
 
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

7 Myths about Alternative Energy
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Korean Job Discussion Forums Forum Index -> Current Events Forum
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Sergio Stefanuto



Joined: 14 May 2009
Location: UK

PostPosted: Mon Aug 31, 2009 1:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Manner of Speaking wrote:
France's nuclear program has nothing to do with its lower greenhouse gas emissions...France did not implement its nuclear energy program because it was interested in reducing greenhouse gas emissions. France made a purely military and political decision beginning in the 1960s to depend primarily on nuclear energy to support its nuclear weapons program; in the 1960s global warming was just a blip on the horizon. They made a purely military decision, regardless of the cost of switching to nuclear energy and regardless of the fact that investments in energy conservation and alternative energy sources could have provided the same thing at a lower cost. So France does not make a good example for the rest of the world to follow.

Contrast this with Japan...Japan does use a lot of nuclear energy, but that's because their population is almost 3 times that of France's. Japan promotes energy conservation heavily so that the average Japanese person uses half the electricity of the average American, with an equal or better lifestyle.


Again, you've completely drifted from the point.

France has the lowest CO2 emissions in Europe other than Sweden (which uses nuclear and hydro-electro exclusively, and has a small population). That's because France employs nuclear power extensively. Australia, by contrast, has the highest per capita CO2 emissions of all OECD countries. That's because Australia doesn't use nuclear power at all.

Conclusion: using nuclear power is an excellent way for a first world country to produce less CO2 than would otherwise be the case.

/thread

Manner of Speaking wrote:
One "link" by itself does not 'rubbish' energy conservation; energy conservation economically, ecologically and mathematically has consistently made the most sense as the best way to reduce energy and electricity consumption. That's why cell phones, televisions, washing machines, computer monitors, and a host of other products have consistently gotten better quality over time while simultaneously reducing the amount of energy used in both their manufacture and daily use.


Energy conservation means increased energy-use. As such, it is entirely useless, by itself, in cutting CO2 emissions.

Cellphones, TV's, etc, all emerged thanks to energy conservation. And this technology coincided with the era of the biggest CO2 emissions.

Energy conservation doesn't mean cutting emissions. It means greater energy-use and more emissions in the absence of carbon-free energy.

Manner of Speaking wrote:
I'm sorry, but quite frankly you don't know very much about the issue, and as a result don't know what you are talking about. Of course energy use will continue to grow into the future...but the question is whether the energy use curve will be steep or shallow. At present the curve is steep because governments - not all - have consistently disregarded energy conservation as the best-use policy option in the pursuit of economic growth. Things are starting to change, however, and President Obama's policies and programs to promote energy conservation and alternative energy are a good example. But energy conservation is not a priority in countries like China, even though efficient energy use would provide a greater economic benefit per dollar invested.


So, to use your critique of nuclear power against you (that "there'd be nuclear power plants all over the place by now"......), why have governments "consistently disregarded energy conservation as the best-use policy option in the pursuit of economic growth"?

I've already debunked energy conservation with my link. Here it is again: http://www.sone.org.uk/images/stories/pdf/energy-conservation.pdf

If you want to incessantly repeat the blessings that energy conservation, alone, will bring - which appears to be your argument - you'd better tackle the counter-arguments in that link. Simple common sense and basic enonomic literacy are more than enough to rubbish your energy conservation romanticism. It also might help to provide some scientific evidence as to how energy conservation, alone, can deal with a rapidly increasing population and demand for energy.

Manner of Speaking wrote:
And it isn't all clear that for all countries, energy use leading to CO2 emissions will continue to grow into the future. Iceland, for example, has set a government policy to rely entirely on geothermal energy by 2050, and intends to ban fossil-fuel-powered vehicles by that time. So their economy and energy use may continue to grow, but their net CO2 emissions will decrease.


How do these facts support your view on energy conservation?

Manner of Speaking wrote:
Nope, you're wrong. The basic technology hasn't changed


Your assertion was that "the technology has not changed"" - with specific reference to plants and their costs. Refutation followed by subject change - again!

Manner of Speaking continued to waffle:

Quote:
Nuclear power plants work by clustering an array of uranium fuel bundles which contain a certain porportion of U-238 to U-235 a certain distance from each other, surrounding the array with a neutron shield to build up a desired density of neutron flux, and running a coolant through the array to carry away the heat resulting from the nuclear reaction.

That's all there is to it.


And?

Manner of Speaking wrote:
The reason why you're so upset at my statements is that nuclear power advocates tend to be a bit like religious fundamentalists. They "get religion" and see nuclear energy as the be-all and end-all to all the world's probems...even though if this were true there'd be nuclear power plants all over the place by now. It's more of a psychological issue than anything else.


The only psychological issue I have is an utter hatred of repetitive leftist windbags who posit fundamentally-false arguments against standard science in the name of their heinous, hippy ideology.

Manner of Speaking wrote:
It's hard to become a Bill Gates by selling home insulation or solar panels.


....particularly when home insulation and solar panels are more deadly than nuclear power plants

(so glad you brought that topic up, btw Mr. Green Your beloved energy conservation kills more people than nuke power! Rolling Eyes )
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Sergio Stefanuto



Joined: 14 May 2009
Location: UK

PostPosted: Mon Aug 31, 2009 1:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If nuclear power is uneconomical, as Manner of Speaking alleges, why, then

Quote:
over the next decade, the world is expected to build 180 nuclear power plants, up from just 39 between 1999 and today"[/i]?

A reactor currently under construction in Tennessee is the first of at least a dozen nuclear plants planned in the U.S. over the next decade or so.

But the driving force is China, whose gangbusters economy requires ever more energy. Beijing says it wants to lift nuclear-generated power from its current 11 gigawatts to 86 gigawatts by 2020

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1914705,00.html
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Manner of Speaking



Joined: 09 Jan 2003

PostPosted: Mon Aug 31, 2009 3:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sergio Stefanuto wrote:
Manner of Speaking wrote:
The reason why you're so upset at my statements is that nuclear power advocates tend to be a bit like religious fundamentalists. They "get religion" and see nuclear energy as the be-all and end-all to all the world's probems...even though if this were true there'd be nuclear power plants all over the place by now. It's more of a psychological issue than anything else.


The only psychological issue I have is an utter hatred of repetitive leftist windbags who posit fundamentally-false arguments against standard science in the name of their heinous, hippy ideology.


Thank you for proving my point. Laughing
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Sergio Stefanuto



Joined: 14 May 2009
Location: UK

PostPosted: Mon Aug 31, 2009 4:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Manner of Speaking wrote:

Thank you for rebutting all my points Laughing


(fixed)

You're welcome

Sergio's the name. Edumacation's the game
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Manner of Speaking



Joined: 09 Jan 2003

PostPosted: Mon Aug 31, 2009 9:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nuclear energy is to the Right what solar energy is to the Left: Religious devotion in practice, a wonderful technology in theory, but an economic white elephant in fact (some crossovers on both sides notwithstanding). When the day comes that the electricity from solar or nuclear power plants is worth more than the costs associated with generating it, I will be as happy as the next person. But that day is not on the horizon and government policies can't accelerate the economic clock.

Many free market advocates support nuclear because it costs less to generate nuclear power than it does to generate electricity from any other source (save, perhaps, hydroelectric power), thanks to nuclear's low operation and maintenance costs. However, someone has to first pay for-and build-these plants and the simple fact has always been that nuclear has very high, upfront construction costs ranging from $6-9 billion. By contrast, gas plants cost only a few hundred million dollars to build and coal a couple of billion depending upon the capacity and type of plant.

This raises the opportunity and risk costs of nuclear, making it unattractive to investors. Capital-intensive power facilities take longer to build, which means that investors have to defer returns for longer than if they had invested elsewhere. In addition, electricity markets have a very peculiar pricing mechanism that makes it harder for nuclear to maximize returns compared to gas-powered or other plants.

In essence, there are two electricity markets: a market for base-load power (electricity sold 24-hours a day) and a market for peak power (electricity sold as needed during peak demand periods like hot summer days). Much of the demand for new power-and thus much of the profit available to investors today-is found in the peak market. But nuclear power plant construction costs are so high that it would take a very, very long time for nuclear facilities to pay for themselves if they only operated during high demand periods.

Hence, nuclear power plants have always been only profitable in base-load markets. Gas-fired power plants, on the other hand, can be profitable in either market because not only are their upfront costs low but it is much easier to turn them off or on unlike nuclear.

Nuclear's high up-front costs don't just mean delayed profits, it also means nuclear has always been a more risky investment. In the US, 20 states have scrapped policies that used to allow investors to charge rates that would guarantee their money back. This means that investors in new nuclear power plants are making a multi-billion dollar bet on disciplined construction schedules, accurate cost estimates, and the future economic health of the region.

Bet wrong on any of the above and the company may well go bankrupt. Bet wrong on a gas-fired power plant, on the other hand, and corporate life will go on because there is less to lose given that the construction costs associated with gas-fired power plants are a small fraction of those associated with nuclear plants.

One aspect that reflects this difference is the "levelized" cost-the price that must be received by owners to cover fixed and variable costs while returning profits to investors. This cost is substantially higher for nuclear than coal-fired electricity. Tufts economist Gilbert Metcalf, for instance, has calculated that, under current law, the levelized cost of nuclear power in the United States is 4.31� per kilowatt hour (kWh). Coal-fired electricity, on the other hand, cost 3.53� per kWh and "clean" coal cost 3.55�.

But even these nuclear estimates are almost certainly too low. That's because Metcalf uses an "overnight cost" (construction costs minus financing costs) figure of $2,014 per installed kilowatt (kW) which is much too low. The Energy Information Administration (EIA) puts this cost at $2,475 per kW at present-although even this figure is suspicious because it relies on a world-wide average for nuclear power plant construction-including the grossly unreliable estimates from state-managed economies.

The Standard & Poor's overnight cost estimate of $4,000 is likely the most reliable because it is based on nuclear plant construction costs in economies where labor and material costs are very similar to those found in the United States. Industry analyst Jim Harding, who uses overnight cost figures similar to Standard & Poor's, puts the levelized costs for new nuclear power generation at 12-15c per kWh right now.

Investors are also wary of nuclear plants because of the construction delays and cost over-runs that have historically plagued the industry. For instance, the Areva/Siemens nuclear power plant being built for TVO in Finland-the first nuclear power plant to be built in a relatively free energy market in decades-once scheduled to be operational within 54 months, is now two years behind schedule and 60% over budget. Nor have these construction delays had anything to do with regulatory obstruction or organized public opposition.

If nuclear power plants are so uneconomical, how then to explain the blizzard of permit applications for the construction and operation of new nuclear power plants that the Nuclear Regulatory Commission has received? Easy: These applications cost little and oblige utilities to do nothing. Industry analysts maintain that federal approvals will not translate into actual plants without a federal promise to private equity markets that, in case of default by power plants, the taxpayer will make good on the full sum of all bad nuclear loans.

Nuclear supporters often counter that construction costs would be a lot lower if regulators didn't impose insanely demanding safety standards, byzantine and time-consuming permitting processes, or endless public hearings, any one of which could result in the plant being stopped in its tracks. Investors would also be more likely to invest, we're told, if there were a high-level waste repository in place or more political support for nuclear power.

Given all of this, how do France, India, China, and Russia build cost-effective nuclear power plants? They don't. Government officials in those countries, not private investors, decide what is built. Either these governments build expensive plants and shove them down the market's throat-or they build shoddy plants and hope for the best.

Conservatives project nuclear power as the solution to greenhouse gas emissions. But they should resist that argument. If we slapped a carbon tax on the economy to "internalize" the costs associated with greenhouse gas emissions-the ideal way to address emissions if we find such policies necessary-then the "right" carbon tax would likely be about $2 per ton of emissions according to a survey of the academic literature by climate economist Richard Tol.

That's not enough to make nuclear energy competitive against coal or natural gas according to calculations performed by the Electric Power Research Institute. In any case, if nuclear offers a cost-effective way to reduce greenhouse gas emissions, it should have to prove it by competing against alternatives in some future carbon-constrained market.

There's nothing new about today's rhetoric about the supposed "nuclear renaissance." Back in 1954, GE maintained: "In five years-certainly within 10-a number of them (nuclear plants) will be operating at about the same cost as those using coal. They will be privately financed, built without government subsidy." Now, 54 years later, the talk of "renaissance" is back-as are promises about the imminent economic competitiveness of nuclear. For those of us who have been around for a while, it's the same old story. Advocates have been waving the pom-poms about a nuclear renaissance or a nuclear age, for ages. Unfortunately or otherwise, there's never been anything but kleenex under the pom-poms.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Fox



Joined: 04 Mar 2009

PostPosted: Mon Aug 31, 2009 10:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have to say, I'm not certain why the expense of building nuclear plants is such a big sticking point. If we wanted cheap power on a short-term scale, sticking to coal and natural gas would be the obvious choice. Nuclear power is about long term investment coupled with more environmentally friendly means. You point out in those other countries that the government builds the plants rather than leaving matters open to the whims of private investors, but honestly, that's exactly what I'd like to see happen in America too: government owned nuclear power plants.

Every 6 to 9 billion dollars that is spent on a nuclear power plant rather than wasted on idiocy like bank bailouts and automotive industry stimulus is much better spent in my estimation. In return for that investment, at least we're getting something of substantial long-term value: clean, cheap (after initial investment), reliable energy. Keep those plants around long enough and they will pay for themselves eventually; long term planning is a good thing.

Regarding the prices you mentioned, how do you factor in the governmental subsidies each industry receives?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
OneWayTraffic



Joined: 14 Mar 2005

PostPosted: Tue Sep 01, 2009 2:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pebble bed reactors could well address most of the economic and safety issues related to reactors.

Check it out.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pebble_bed_reactor

Manner of speaking: Apart from trying to use less (achievable with sufficiently high taxes on electricity for example) exactly what alternative to nuclear do you propose?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Sergio Stefanuto



Joined: 14 May 2009
Location: UK

PostPosted: Tue Sep 01, 2009 2:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Manner of Speaking wrote:

Nuclear energy is to the Right what solar energy is to the Left: Religious devotion in practice, a wonderful technology in theory, but an economic white elephant in fact (some crossovers on both sides notwithstanding). When the day comes that the electricity from solar or nuclear power plants is worth more than the costs associated with generating it, I will be as happy as the next person. But that day is not on the horizon and government policies can't accelerate the economic clock.


Nuclear could handle the base load and solar can handle the peaks.

Nuclear v solar is a false binary

Manner of Speaking wrote:
Many free market advocates support nuclear because it costs less to generate nuclear power than it does to generate electricity from any other source (save, perhaps, hydroelectric power), thanks to nuclear's low operation and maintenance costs. However, someone has to first pay for-and build-these plants and the simple fact has always been that nuclear has very high, upfront construction costs ranging from $6-9 billion. By contrast, gas plants cost only a few hundred million dollars to build and coal a couple of billion depending upon the capacity and type of plant.

This raises the opportunity and risk costs of nuclear, making it unattractive to investors. Capital-intensive power facilities take longer to build, which means that investors have to defer returns for longer than if they had invested elsewhere. In addition, electricity markets have a very peculiar pricing mechanism that makes it harder for nuclear to maximize returns compared to gas-powered or other plants.


This is the 4th time I'm posting this link in opposition to the above point: http://nuclearinfo.net/Nuclearpower/WebHomeCostOfNuclearPower

Read. L E A R N.

The rest of your post was the same point you've made (and I've rebutted) thrice previously, only much more longwinded. Saying the same thing with more words doesn't make it any less false.

Quote:
Nuclear energy is, in many places, competitive with fossil fuel for electricity generation, despite relatively high capital costs and the need to internalise all waste disposal and decommissioning costs. If the social, health and environmental costs of fossil fuels are also taken into account, nuclear is outstanding.

http://www.world-nuclear.org/info/inf02.html


Quote:
The Report�s principal conclusion holds fundamental importance for energy planners: In most industrialized countries today, new nuclear power plants offer the most economical way to generate base-load electricity � even without consideration of the geopolitical and environmental advantages that nuclear energy confers.

The Bottom Line: A Nuclear Advantage on Economics Alone

Nuclear power has always been characterized by a combination of higher construction and lower operating costs as compared to fossil energy. The key development in the �new economics� of nuclear power is that, both costs considered, nuclear power has now become less expensive than fossil and any other form of electricity generation.

http://www.world-nuclear.org/reference/pdf/economics.pdf
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
blade



Joined: 30 Jun 2007

PostPosted: Tue Sep 01, 2009 8:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I rather like the idea of Thorium based power plants.

Here is I believe a rather interesting blog on the subject:

http://thoriumenergy.blogspot.com/
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
br_owen



Joined: 10 Jun 2008

PostPosted: Wed Sep 02, 2009 11:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

you cats in here need to get on to Mike Ruppert.

http://www.fromthewilderness.com/

- archives - finished in 2006



http://mikeruppert.blogspot.com/

- updated every few days with sources from all over the place.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
mises



Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired

PostPosted: Sun Sep 06, 2009 12:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601101&sid=a2lUkzmYNGWI
Quote:
China�s Nuclear Expansion to Exceed Forecast, Japan Steel Says
Share | Email | Print | A A A

By Masumi Suga and Shunichi Ozasa

Sept. 7 (Bloomberg) -- Japan Steel Works Ltd., which makes reactor parts for Areva SA, Toshiba Corp. and rivals, more than doubled its forecast for China�s nuclear plant construction because of stimulus spending and environmental pressures.

The country may build about 22 reactors in the five years ending 2010 and 132 units thereafter, compared with a company estimate last year for a total 60 reactors, President Ikuo Sato said in an interview. Japan Steel Works has the only plant that makes the central part of a large-size nuclear reactor�s containment vessel in a single piece, reducing radiation risk.


China, the world�s largest energy consumer after the U.S., is increasing spending on atomic energy as part of a 4 trillion yuan ($586 billion) economic stimulus and as it curbs greenhouse gas emissions. Japan Steel Works is counting on the rising reactor demand as the global recession curbs sales to customers such as carmakers and electronics companies.

�The potential for investment in nuclear power is huge,� said Shi Yan, an analyst at UOB-Kay Hian Ltd. in Shanghai. �Only a small number of companies in China have the right to develop nuclear power projects, but the country is open to foreign companies to help build reactors and to provide equipment.�

Japan Steel Works, which has lost 12 percent of its value this year, fell 1.1 percent to 1,085 yen on Sept. 4 on the Tokyo Stock Exchange.

China became the world�s largest emitter of greenhouse gasses from burning oil and coal in 2006, followed by the U.S., Russia, India and Japan, according to U.S. Department of Energy data compiled by Bloomberg News.

Business Talks

�China, which had increased construction of coal-fired power plants, is now trying to focus on nuclear power because of the environmental issue,� Sato, 60, who took office in June, said in the Aug. 31 interview in Tokyo. �China is accelerating nuclear spending, and additional business talks are coming up.�

The country has 9,100 megawatts of nuclear capacity and has approved the construction of additional reactors able to generate 25,400 megawatts, Sun Qin, then-deputy head of the National Energy Administration, said last month. China will issue a plan by the end of the year to push development of clean energy sources such as nuclear, wind, solar and hydro power.

Gross domestic product in China expanded 7.9 percent in the second quarter as the economy rebounded from the weakest growth in almost a decade, boosted by stimulus spending.

�Similar to road and railway construction, nuclear energy is also part of China�s plans for a recovery after the economy slowed,� Sato said.

Global Increase

Globally, a total of 52 nuclear reactors were under construction as of Jan. 1, according to the Japan Atomic Industrial Forum Inc.

Japan Steel Works is spending 80 billion yen ($864 million) at its Muroran plant in the country�s northern island of Hokkaido by March 2012 to increase capacity to make parts for 12 nuclear reactors a year, compared with 5.5 units now, the president said.

The investment will increase annual sales from Japan Steel Works� cast and forged steel for electric and nuclear power to 70 billion yen from the year starting April 2012, up from 45.5 billion yen expected for the current year, Sato said.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Korean Job Discussion Forums Forum Index -> Current Events Forum All times are GMT - 8 Hours
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3
Page 3 of 3

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


This page is maintained by the one and only Dave Sperling.
Contact Dave's ESL Cafe
Copyright © 2018 Dave Sperling. All Rights Reserved.

Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2002 phpBB Group

TEFL International Supports Dave's ESL Cafe
TEFL Courses, TESOL Course, English Teaching Jobs - TEFL International