|
Korean Job Discussion Forums
"The Internet's Meeting Place for ESL/EFL Teachers from Around the World!"
|
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
Summer Wine
Joined: 20 Mar 2005
Location: Next to a River
|
 Posted: Wed Sep 02, 2009 3:24 am Post subject: |
 |
|
| Quote: |
I am not Canadian. I am simply expressing concern with regards to my northern neighbor.
|
Well, then I guess they don't feel the same concern.
Black africans were given refugee status for that in the past, so why shouldn't white africans be given the same status. |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
Julius
Joined: 27 Jul 2006
|
| Posted: Wed Sep 02, 2009 3:45 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Summer Wine wrote: |
Black africans were given refugee status for that in the past, so why shouldn't white africans be given the same status. |
We all know the reason: because the white western world is trying to expunge its collective colonial guilt by pointing the finger exclusively at white south africans.
As far as I can see, former colonies America, Canada, Australia, New Zealand and so on were all pretty nasty when it comes to historic treatment of their native populations.
Sure there were plenty of injustices in the past , its over and we all hope for a better future for all concerned. But in the meantime I think its a bit rich for western countries to discriminate against refugees that meet the requirements..just because they happen to be white. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Summer Wine
Joined: 20 Mar 2005
Location: Next to a River
|
| Posted: Wed Sep 02, 2009 4:03 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: |
| But in the meantime I think its a bit rich for western countries to discriminate against refugees that meet the requirements..just because they happen to be white. |
Discriminate? Pro or anti?
Rhodesia/Zimbabwe is a good example of discrimination, post and present.
Should non african states not support white africans because 80 - 100 yrs ago they were not nice, while China, Korea and others practice neo colonialism today in africa and we don't complain?
How long should I be held guilty because of the color of my skin?
Even though my family was not involved in the actions of the past? Though even if they were, I am not my Great Grandfather, so I won't feel guilty for his actions. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Konglishman
Joined: 14 Sep 2007
Location: Nanjing
|
| Posted: Wed Sep 02, 2009 4:41 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Julius wrote: |
| Konglishman wrote: |
If South Africa's former government had never engaged in apartheid policies in the first place, it would not be in the mess, it is in today. |
That may be true, but last I heard America and US wiped out their native peoples wholesale, so nobody's hands are clean when it comes to colonial history. What I dislike is the modern phenomena of westerners trying to expunge some collective guilt by pointing the finger at white south africans. Fact is they're there because you and your kin sent them there 1, 200+ years ago.
Point is, why not give refuge to someone who clearly needs it, regardless of wether they are white or not? |
I was never suggesting that being white or black or any other race, should play a role in giving refugee status. Frankly speaking, I think refugee status should only be given to people fleeing extreme circumstances such as war, genocide, brutal dictatorships, etc. I just don't think this case or some other cases such as the mentally ill Korean woman, live up to this measure.
By the way, segregation would have been a more sensible comparison to apartheid. As for the Native Americans, I wish that history could have worked out differently, but there is nothing that I can do to change the past. Nonetheless, I, for one, do not waste my time feeling guilty about a past that does not personally include me. At the end of the day, none of that has any bearing on this immigration case which we are debating.
Anyways, I was simply addressing your last point. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
|
| Posted: Wed Sep 02, 2009 4:45 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: |
| I think Canada is setting a bad precedent by setting the bar too low so to speak. |
Canada will accept a Mexican refugee on the grounds that he is gay. No violence needed. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Konglishman
Joined: 14 Sep 2007
Location: Nanjing
|
| Posted: Wed Sep 02, 2009 4:51 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Summer Wine wrote: |
| Quote: |
I am not Canadian. I am simply expressing concern with regards to my northern neighbor.
|
Well, then I guess they don't feel the same concern.
Black africans were given refugee status for that in the past, so why shouldn't white africans be given the same status. |
During the apartheid era, I suppose that a strong case could have been made for refugee status of black South Africans. However, apartheid is over and South Africa is one of the richest if the not the richest country in Africa. Most importantly, it is a stable democracy.
Now, if we were talking about Zimbabwe, given the tremendous problems going on there, then I would agree that a strong case of refugee status could be made for both black and white Zimbabweans. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Summer Wine
Joined: 20 Mar 2005
Location: Next to a River
|
| Posted: Wed Sep 02, 2009 1:46 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: |
| Most importantly, it is a stable democracy |
Maybe, but if it is true that the intelligence and police are being used as political agents (to find out stuff about the opposition and silence them (verbally) then I am not sure that stable is a word I would use or democracy for that matter. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
|
| Posted: Sat Sep 05, 2009 12:35 pm Post subject: |
|
|
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/ottawa-to-challenge-controversial-refugee-ruling/article1275307/
| Quote: |
Ottawa to challenge controversial refugee ruling
The Conservative government is launching a court challenge of the Immigration and Refugee Board's decision to grant a white South African asylum in Canada because of the colour of his skin.
The independent panel's decision so infuriated South African officials that the country's leading political party labelled Canada �racist.� South Africa's top diplomat has been urging Canadian officials all week to challenge the decision in court.
Thursday, a spokesperson for Immigration Minister Jason Kenney confirmed Ottawa will seek leave to appeal the decision that allowed Brandon Huntley to live in Canada as a refugee.
�The government is going to be seeking leave to appeal the IRB's decision to grant Mr. Huntley refugee status [to] the Federal Court,� spokesman Alykhan Velshi said.
�Our department's lawyers, as well as those from the Department of Justice reviewed the IRB ruling over the last several days and we're going to seek leave to appeal and we'll be making submissions to the court in the fullness of time, and it would be inappropriate to comment further because the matter will be before the courts.�
The minister's position was a departure from earlier this week, when he and his staff declined comment to The Globe on Mr. Huntley's case, saying it would be inappropriate because the Immigration and Refugee Board is an arm's-length agency.
Mr. Huntley is a 31-year-old South African who came to Canada in 2006 as a carnival worker. He stayed illegally before filing a refugee claim.
Revealed this week, the decision by lone board member William Davis accepted Mr. Huntley's argument that his safety would be in danger if he returned to South Africa. He had claimed he'd been the victim of seven attempted robberies and called a �white dog� and �settler.� He did not report any of the incidents to police, saying he did not trust them.
Mr. Davis agreed with Mr. Huntley's characterization of the risk, saying Mr. Huntley had scars on his body to support his account of the attacks and noting what he believed was �persecution� of whites in South Africa by �African South Africans� that would cause Mr. Huntley to �stand out like a sore thumb.�
|
This is racist. Nakedly racist. If he was from any other group and was being targeted by any other group he would be a 'new Canadian'. We give refugee status to Central Americans for being gay because of the threat of violence. This guy has (apparently) been stabbed once and assaulted many times and it is not sufficient. Because he is white. How far are we going to push this? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
|
| Posted: Sat Sep 05, 2009 6:34 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Konglishman wrote: |
| During the apartheid era, I suppose that a strong case could have been made for refugee status of black South Africans. However, apartheid is over and South Africa is one of the richest if the not the richest country in Africa. Most importantly, it is a stable democracy. |
It's a "rich, stable democracy" where this man felt unsafe enough to apply for refugee status in another country, with scars to back up his stories about being attacked.
If I get attacked in America, I don't flee to Britain, I call the police. This man felt that wasn't an option, and instead chose to uproot and flee. Why are you insisting that he's wrong? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
itaewonguy
Joined: 25 Mar 2003
|
| Posted: Sat Sep 05, 2009 9:08 pm Post subject: |
|
|
many people abuse the Refugee status as a way to get into a country..
talk to Africans in Itaewon they will tell you all about how they have organizations back in Africa to help you be grated refugee status, as getting a green card is very difficult they look to abuse the system as get refugee status.. but its getting hard now too...
Humans will do anything to get what they want...
Arranged marriages was abused back in the pass and is still being abused today for sole reason of getting a green card, refugee status is just another way to get into the country legally.. and get A LOT OF BENEFITS
Ive know a couple guys who abused their way into canada with refugee status.. they said its a sweet way to get their familes in, he laughed about it, said how easy it was, just made it look like they were in fear for their lives, they were abused by local gangs, corrupted police, his wife getting threated and almost raped, his daughters are scared to walk home of fear of being raped.. hahahahah he said it was all BS... the eye was on the greencard.. he would say anything to get it he said.. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
AgentM
Joined: 07 Jun 2009
Location: British Columbia, Canada
|
| Posted: Sat Sep 05, 2009 10:18 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| This man may or may not have a case, however, I am highly skeptical. There are lots of white South Africans (both Afrikaaners and British South Africans), and we don't hear of them applying to Western countries en masse for refugee status. Could this man not just have moved to another part of the country where whites fared better? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Konglishman
Joined: 14 Sep 2007
Location: Nanjing
|
| Posted: Sun Sep 06, 2009 2:56 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Fox wrote: |
| Konglishman wrote: |
| During the apartheid era, I suppose that a strong case could have been made for refugee status of black South Africans. However, apartheid is over and South Africa is one of the richest if the not the richest country in Africa. Most importantly, it is a stable democracy. |
It's a "rich, stable democracy" where this man felt unsafe enough to apply for refugee status in another country, with scars to back up his stories about being attacked.
If I get attacked in America, I don't flee to Britain, I call the police. This man felt that wasn't an option, and instead chose to uproot and flee. Why are you insisting that he's wrong? |
Two other posters have already made the points that I am about to make. I am skeptical because it is rare if not unheard of for a white South African to be applying for refugee status. So, I would not be surprised if he is at the very last adding a lot of exaggerations to his stories. Besides, as another poster pointed, he could easily move to another part of the country where he might feel safer. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
|
| Posted: Sun Sep 06, 2009 8:53 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: |
| This is racist. Nakedly racist. If he was from any other group and was being targeted by any other group he would be a 'new Canadian'. |
Yeah, but the Tories can probably get away with it because the people who normally come forth to defend any and all refugee claimants likely won't wanna go to bat for some white South African with a shaved head who claims to have been victimized by blacks.
I'm not sure what the government's exact motivation is, though. Part of me thinks they want to set a precedent allowing them to appeal future refugee rulings, which is something that doesn't usually happen lot right now. Basically, using this one case to discredit the whole system.
Or, they might just realize that it's not helping our standing in the developing world to be the country whose refugee board essentially declared post-apartheid South Africa to be a racist hell-hole full of frenzied, bloodthirsty black mobs. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
|
| Posted: Sun Sep 06, 2009 9:13 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: |
| Yeah, but the Tories can probably get away with it because the people who normally come forth to defend any and all refugee claimants likely won't wanna go to bat for some white South African with a shaved head who claims to have been victimized by blacks. |
Yes, exactly.
| Quote: |
| I'm not sure what the government's exact motivation is, though. Part of me thinks they want to set a precedent allowing them to appeal future refugee rulings, which is something that doesn't usually happen lot right now. Basically, using this one case to discredit the whole system. |
I doubt it.
| Quote: |
| Or, they might just realize that it's not helping our standing in the developing world to be the country whose refugee board essentially declared post-apartheid South Africa to be a racist hell-hole full of frenzied, bloodthirsty black mobs. |
That isn't what they declared. When Canada accepts gay Mexicans for being gay and under a treat of violence do Mexicans then assume that Canada declared Mexico a homophobic hell-hole full of frenzied, bloodthirsty straight mobs? No, of course not.
I don't care what happens to this guy. He can go to England or Holland. But the Canadian immigration system is not set up to benefit Canada or Canadians but to fulfill a psychotic leftist fantasy of a hyper diverse society managed by a total state. Like the Zion Council in The Matrix. Which is how they see utopia. Right? You associate with them OTOH. It isn't about Canada, it sure as shit ain't about the refugees (if it were, they'd be settled in nations similar to their own). It is about a dream.
And that's why this annoys me so much. The nonsense is exposed. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
|
| Posted: Sun Sep 06, 2009 9:41 am Post subject: |
|
|
| mises wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Yeah, but the Tories can probably get away with it because the people who normally come forth to defend any and all refugee claimants likely won't wanna go to bat for some white South African with a shaved head who claims to have been victimized by blacks. |
Yes, exactly.
| Quote: |
| I'm not sure what the government's exact motivation is, though. Part of me thinks they want to set a precedent allowing them to appeal future refugee rulings, which is something that doesn't usually happen lot right now. Basically, using this one case to discredit the whole system. |
I doubt it.
| Quote: |
| Or, they might just realize that it's not helping our standing in the developing world to be the country whose refugee board essentially declared post-apartheid South Africa to be a racist hell-hole full of frenzied, bloodthirsty black mobs. |
That isn't what they declared. When Canada accepts gay Mexicans for being gay and under a treat of violence do Mexicans then assume that Canada declared Mexico a homophobic hell-hole full of frenzied, bloodthirsty straight mobs? No, of course not.
|
Well, if you reject my two hypotheses, what do YOU think was the government's motivation in appealing this case?
| Quote: |
You associate with them OTOH.
|
Heh heh, well it might be more accurate to say that I AM one of them, as opposed to that I associate with them. I do tend to take a more "realistic" view of immigration, multiculturalism, and allied topics, though.
| Quote: |
It isn't about Canada, it sure as shit ain't about the refugees (if it were, they'd be settled in nations similar to their own). It is about a dream.
|
Yes, I agree that some leftists romantically assume that ANY influx of "diverse" groups in whatever numbers will somehow automatically have beneficial results for the society. Plus, they tend to conflate issues of immigration, refugees, and multiculturalism. ("What? You don't like official multiculturalism? So you're against immigration, then?") |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
|
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
