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caniff
Joined: 03 Feb 2004
Location: All over the map
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 Posted: Wed Sep 02, 2009 6:18 pm Post subject: |
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| ddeubel wrote: |
drinking in a pub -- really makes you see things differently.
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I've noticed that.
edit: Well, I can't say I know that much about their "plight", but couldn't they settle down somewhere and maybe work on building a reputation as a hard-working and scrupulous people? Do they really need (and I ask this in all honesty) to continue this nomadic lifestyle that fosters distrust in others? |
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ddeubel
Joined: 20 Jul 2005
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| Posted: Wed Sep 02, 2009 6:47 pm Post subject: |
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Ytuque - great reply. I'd also add that even language can be deceptive and isn't alone, something that can define a "Roma". The situation on all levels varies across countries.
Caniff - yes, I agree and for the most part, for the better.
All my Roma friends were musicians. If I go to another culture, I try to hunt out musicians, they are usually more open to other cultures, strangers and ways of thinking.
Racism is in every nation (in Canada, my home and native land, just as bad -- they even added a visa requirement for Czechs just because of the number of Roma visiting Canada!). Sad. However, in E. Europe they don't have much institutional protection or dutiful access to social welfare. Ironically, for many reasons, the Roma were much better off under Communism - MUCH.
I think the problem really lies in public education and governments have done a dismal job and tackling all the stereotypes and just plain myths about Roma. Also, educating people about their culture and not just looking at things piecemeal. they live as they do for particular reasons.
Some of the "wrong" myths are
A) low IQ - not intelligent (in a recent survey in Romania [largest population of Romany in the world] 80% of respondents believe this to be fact)
B) unclean -- couldn't be further from the truth. To us it "appears" but their culture revolves around the whole concept of "cleanliness".
C) nomadic -- a very small minority of Romany move around. Most live on the margins of urban centers.
D) lazy -- nothing further from the truth. They just occupy their time differently and remain outside the wider economic sphere because of non existent opportunity
E) steal/cheat/lie -- different cultures see things differently. This is the nature of life and despite western judaic culture believing that all people are created equal and of the same moral divinity -- it ain't so.
I could go on.... again, Kudos to Madonna. Europeans can change but they need people to make them confront that need to change.
DD
http://eflclassroom.com |
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Koveras
Joined: 09 Oct 2008
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| Posted: Wed Sep 02, 2009 7:18 pm Post subject: |
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| ddeubel wrote: |
E) steal/cheat/lie -- different cultures see things differently. This is the nature of life and despite western judaic culture believing that all people are created equal and of the same moral divinity -- it ain't so.
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So... are Gypsies of lesser moral divinity? Please elaborate on what you mean. Right now it seems like you're saying, "yeah, Gypsies are lying thieves, but in their culture that's okay, because it's the nature of life." Is that what you mean? |
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ddeubel
Joined: 20 Jul 2005
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| Posted: Wed Sep 02, 2009 9:51 pm Post subject: |
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| So... are Gypsies of lesser moral divinity? Please elaborate on what you mean. Right now it seems like you're saying, "yeah, Gypsies are lying thieves, but in their culture that's okay, because it's the nature of life." Is that what you mean? |
That's not what I'm saying - that's what you are reading.
Without making a 10 page post about ethnocultural diversity. Let's just say - we consider it okay to take a knife to the *beep* of a screaming infant with nare a thought of "wrong". Morality is how you are brought up, not what's on some tablet given to some guy who went on a hike and saw a lot of burning, not burning up bushes...
and its not so easy to switch off and on when interacting with other cultures.
I have a number of movies that others might enjoy on the subject of the Roma. But one of the most enjoyable is Kosternica's Black Cat, White Cat. http://www.culturevulture.net/Movies/BlackCatWhiteCat.htm
They don't get better than this. Great music too. |
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Bronski
Joined: 17 Apr 2006
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| Posted: Wed Sep 02, 2009 10:00 pm Post subject: |
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Good posts ddeubel and I love that movie! |
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Koveras
Joined: 09 Oct 2008
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| Posted: Wed Sep 02, 2009 10:44 pm Post subject: |
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| ddeubel wrote: |
| Quote: |
| So... are Gypsies of lesser moral divinity? Please elaborate on what you mean. Right now it seems like you're saying, "yeah, Gypsies are lying thieves, but in their culture that's okay, because it's the nature of life." Is that what you mean? |
That's not what I'm saying - that's what you are reading.
Without making a 10 page post about ethnocultural diversity. Let's just say - we consider it okay to take a knife to the *beep* of a screaming infant with nare a thought of "wrong". Morality is how you are brought up, not what's on some tablet given to some guy who went on a hike and saw a lot of burning, not burning up bushes...
and its not so easy to switch off and on when interacting with other cultures.
I have a number of movies that others might enjoy on the subject of the Roma. But one of the most enjoyable is Kosternica's Black Cat, White Cat. http://www.culturevulture.net/Movies/BlackCatWhiteCat.htm
They don't get better than this. Great music too. |
Okay, that's not what you're saying. What I'm saying is that what you're saying isn't clear. I'm not asking for some general comments on culture, I want to hear what you have to say on Gypsy culture and thieving and lying. |
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Stones1962
Joined: 26 Nov 2008
Location: Europe/Asia
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| Posted: Thu Sep 03, 2009 12:24 am Post subject: |
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The Roma are pretty much hated here in Czech. Go to rural Slovakia and you will find they have been rounded up and placed into 'camps.' Gotta keep 'em away from the populace...
It's a sad situation but Roma music and literature are gaining a good reputation in some parts, even here in Prague. Look into it, you'd be surprised! |
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ddeubel
Joined: 20 Jul 2005
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| Posted: Thu Sep 03, 2009 12:41 am Post subject: |
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What you really want me to say Koveras is what I think of lying and stealing and cheating. I won't do you the honor but admire you tact and debating decorum.
If you want to know about WHY they do such things, read the book mentioned - Isabel here with Charlie Rose (starts at about 38 min. ) talks a bit about these things... http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5336693904242358815#
However I will say something by way of example. 50-70% of Americans cheat and commit adultery. When an American walks into your home, you don't go "holy molly! An adulterer!" and smack him on the face, spit and throw him / her on the street - do you? So what makes it different with the Gypsies and stealing or lying?
Bronski - yes, worth a rewatch, I'll have to soon... I spent 5 years in Karlovy Vary, the Czech Rep. and each year he visited the film festival and I got to hear his band and party with them. Cool cats.
DD
http://eflclassroom.com |
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ytuque
Joined: 29 Jan 2008
Location: I drink therefore I am!
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| Posted: Thu Sep 03, 2009 12:59 am Post subject: |
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| ddeubel wrote: |
| Ironically, for many reasons, the Roma were much better off under Communism - MUCH. |
Yikes! Ceaucescu and Stalin put severe policies in place to stamp out Roma culture. |
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DWAEJIMORIGUKBAP
Joined: 28 May 2009
Location: Electron cloud
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| Posted: Thu Sep 03, 2009 7:57 pm Post subject: |
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| Europeans can change but they need people to make them confront that need to change |
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Yes, and thank The Lord Above that we have people like you to make us aware of this!
I'm being sarcastic.
Last edited by DWAEJIMORIGUKBAP on Thu Sep 03, 2009 8:13 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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ddeubel
Joined: 20 Jul 2005
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| Posted: Thu Sep 03, 2009 8:00 pm Post subject: |
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ddeubel wrote:
Ironically, for many reasons, the Roma were much better off under Communism - MUCH.
Yikes! Ceaucescu and Stalin put severe policies in place to stamp out Roma culture. |
Not so fast there.... While my statement was probably much too broad (and also, we are talking about many different countries/regions), it does apply if we are talking about the few decades just prior to the collapse of communism. I do agree, under Stalin, there was much forced relocation, oppression, sterilzation and in no way can we say the gypsies were "better off".
A common thread I found in all the people I met and all the articles I read was post communism - everyone said how it was much better under communism. There was in some sense, more focus on equality however manufactured that concept was.....
I found this nice ppt presentation online, might be of interest to some.
http://www.slideshare.net/Melany7/the-gypsy-problem
I think the most we can say is that for the Roma, life has never been to easy....
DD
http://eflclassroom.com
http://teachingrecipes.com |
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DWAEJIMORIGUKBAP
Joined: 28 May 2009
Location: Electron cloud
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| Posted: Thu Sep 03, 2009 8:15 pm Post subject: |
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DD -
And why prey tell should Europe have had to accomodate and integrate India's cast outs anyway?
Wonder what would happen if Britain decided to send all Her criminals to Australi... uh scratch that... Um to Canada. Would they just be able to roam around in caravans as they please doing odd jobs lol...
There used to be gypsy camps where I grew up. They were well known for theivery from local gardens and houses etc and for ripping off the elderly and extorting from them after literally forcing them to agree to have work done on thei driveways and homes, jacking up the prices, doing a shoddy job and threatening them with violence if they didn't pay.
I suppose though, if they are to be part of the society, they should be integrated. I say if they resist integration in a way that is contrary to the law of the land - they are outlaws by definition. Personally, why India's outcasts were accepted in the first place is a mystery, European Govts at the time should have made a better effort to send them back. But 900 years ago is a long time and it seems they're with us to stay, so more work needs to be done to get them to integrate with mainstream society in a fair way. But they must not be allowed to live outside of the law. |
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Bronski
Joined: 17 Apr 2006
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| Posted: Thu Sep 03, 2009 9:44 pm Post subject: |
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_Romania
http://www.economist.com/world/displaystory.cfm?story_id=13610305
From the second link:
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FEW topics arouse more controversy in the ex-Communist region than the Roma. It is easy to caricature the most vocal positions. On one side stroppy, chippy activists who see nothing but racism by an arrogant white majority. On the other, upstanding, if self-satisfied, citizens who believe that Roma are (put politely) the authors of their own misfortunes or (less politely) a bunch of thieving good-for-nothing parasites.
Reality is much more complicated. Clearly the hands-off, punitive approach of the Roma-bashers is not an answer. Locking up Roma (for example, as America imprisons its black underclass) is not just futile, but wrong. The plight of so many millions of Europeans should strike the continent�s conscience. Roma slavery ended only some 150 years ago. They were the only racial group apart from the Jews which Hitler tried to exterminate. The Communist regimes made their way of life illegal. Economic reforms have shredded their safety net.
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ytuque
Joined: 29 Jan 2008
Location: I drink therefore I am!
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| Posted: Thu Sep 03, 2009 11:09 pm Post subject: |
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| Bronski wrote: |
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_Romania
http://www.economist.com/world/displaystory.cfm?story_id=13610305
From the second link:
| Quote: |
FEW topics arouse more controversy in the ex-Communist region than the Roma. It is easy to caricature the most vocal positions. On one side stroppy, chippy activists who see nothing but racism by an arrogant white majority. On the other, upstanding, if self-satisfied, citizens who believe that Roma are (put politely) the authors of their own misfortunes or (less politely) a bunch of thieving good-for-nothing parasites.
Reality is much more complicated. Clearly the hands-off, punitive approach of the Roma-bashers is not an answer. Locking up Roma (for example, as America imprisons its black underclass) is not just futile, but wrong. The plight of so many millions of Europeans should strike the continent�s conscience. Roma slavery ended only some 150 years ago. They were the only racial group apart from the Jews which Hitler tried to exterminate. The Communist regimes made their way of life illegal. Economic reforms have shredded their safety net.
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After having interacted with Roma everyday for several years, I would say "bunch of thieving good-for-nothing parasites" would be the best description.
What can you say about a group who:
1. Sell young girls for marriage
2. Use their infants as props for begging
3. Train young children to be thieves
4. Refuse to educate their young |
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