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| Should we be allowed to sell our own organs? |
| yes |
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65% |
[ 13 ] |
| no |
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35% |
[ 7 ] |
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| Total Votes : 20 |
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cubanlord
Joined: 08 Jul 2005
Location: In Japan!
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 Posted: Wed Sep 02, 2009 6:29 pm Post subject: Selling Organs - Should we be allowed to? |
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This guy thinks so.
http://us.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/meast/09/01/blackmarket.organs/index.html
This article raises a lot of interesting questions. On the one hand, we should be able to do what we want with our own bodies; they're one of the only things we can actually say is ours. On the other hand, you deal with ethical issues.
But which is more important: What a bunch of rich people decide what is right and what is wrong or what a poor person, possibly someone trying to feed his/her family or progress his family higher up on the never-ending ladder of social status, wants to do to improve their current situation?
Last edited by cubanlord on Wed Sep 02, 2009 6:34 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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cubanlord
Joined: 08 Jul 2005
Location: In Japan!
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| Posted: Wed Sep 02, 2009 6:31 pm Post subject: |
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According to Scheper-Hughes, the same day she spoke to CNN, she had learned of another illegal transplant surgery taking place at Cedars-Sinai Hospital in Los Angeles. The donor, she said, was a young Korean national who had received more than $25,000 for one of his kidneys.
"This is a kid that does not speak much English, who is terrified and shaken," she said. "And he thought, 'Maybe I've made a mistake to do this, but $25,000 is a good amount of cash.'" |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Wed Sep 02, 2009 7:39 pm Post subject: Re: Selling Organs - Should we be allowed to? |
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| cubanlord wrote: |
| On the one hand, we should be able to do what we want with our own bodies; they're one of the only things we can actually say is ours. On the other hand, you deal with ethical issues. |
The thing is, you can do what you want with your own body. It's not illegal to donate organs to people, it's simply illegal for other people to pay you for it. Give your kidney to whoever you want, you're just not going to get rich off of it.
Further, as soon as you allow the actual outright sale of organs, the organ donation system is over and done with. No one would donate their organs if they could will them to their family members after their death to be sold. Because of this, organ transplant procedures would both be more costly and be far less egalitarian.
In addition to that, many nations have government provided health care. Donating an organ almost invariably comes with a rise in health care requirements. Society having to pick up the tab on your rising health care costs just because you wanted to make some quick money doesn't seem reasonable to me.
If selling organs can negatively impact us at a societal level, I don't see any reason it should be allowed. Donate if you like, but not for money. |
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The Gipkik
Joined: 30 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Wed Sep 02, 2009 7:50 pm Post subject: Re: Selling Organs - Should we be allowed to? |
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| Fox wrote: |
The thing is, you can do what you want with your own body. It's not illegal to donate organs to people, it's simply illegal for other people to pay you for it. Give your kidney to whoever you want, you're just not going to get rich off of it.
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Donating your organs is like getting a really bad tattoo. Once it's done, it's done. You can't get it back--and transplants just aren't the same. Problem with donating your organs is that your body may be yours as a physical fact, but where money is concerned, people will do everything to make your body theirs. There are numerous stories coming out of India, China, where a person goes into a hospital for minor surgery and comes out missing a kidney. Poverty makes people do very questionable things--as does greed. |
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Joe666
Joined: 19 Nov 2008
Location: Jesus it's hot down here!
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| Posted: Wed Sep 02, 2009 8:00 pm Post subject: |
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Then there's the whole other issue of histocompatibility/tissue rejection. You just can't stick any old organ into another human. I maybe should rephrase the previous sentence, but you get the picture. Statistically, the chances of finding a proper donor are very low. Yes the immuno-inhibiting drugs help after the transplant, but they are just that, inhibiting. Now your immune system is comprimised and you are more suseptable to infections of all types.
I am skeptical of these second and third world countries selling and implanting organs. Do they really know the biochem. involved in this procedure? |
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oldtactics
Joined: 18 Oct 2008
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| Posted: Wed Sep 02, 2009 8:08 pm Post subject: |
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Same argument as women who sell their eggs to infertile couples. I say, if there's a demand, good for them for selling to the highest bidder.
The main problem that I can see is that if purchased organs becomes prevalent, people will stop donating their organs (and blood, eggs, sperm, etc) for free. |
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kabrams
Joined: 15 Mar 2008
Location: your Dad's house
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| Posted: Wed Sep 02, 2009 8:18 pm Post subject: |
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No.
Because just like "selling babies" there are poor people the world over who will be taken advantage of.
A kidney here. A heart here. A lung there. You'll have mothers killing themselves for the $1,000 they MIGHT pay her to give up a kidney. |
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Rusty Shackleford
Joined: 08 May 2008
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| Posted: Wed Sep 02, 2009 8:23 pm Post subject: Re: Selling Organs - Should we be allowed to? |
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[quote="Fox"]
| cubanlord wrote: |
| On the one hand, we should be able to do what we want with our own bodies; they're one of the only things we can actually say is ours. On the other hand, you deal with ethical issues. |
| Quote: |
Further, as soon as you allow the actual outright sale of organs, the organ donation system is over and done with. No one would donate their organs if they could will them to their family members after their death to be sold. Because of this, organ transplant procedures would both be more costly and be far less egalitarian. |
The opposite is actually true. If you can sell your organs after you die the price would fall to close to zero. So many organs would flood the market, hence driving down the cost. It's not as if every kidney would sell for $25,000 forever under a free market for organs. Econ 101.
| Quote: |
In addition to that, many nations have government provided health care. Donating an organ almost invariably comes with a rise in health care requirements. Society having to pick up the tab on your rising health care costs just because you wanted to make some quick money doesn't seem reasonable to me.
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Basically isn't that the central problem with socialized medicine? A free rider issue where you can drink, smoke, eat pop tarts for breakfast and donate a kidney but still receive the same level level of care as a responsible individual.
Having said that, is it even true that donating a kidney lowers your health outcomes over the long term?
| Quote: |
| If selling organs can negatively impact us at a societal level, I don't see any reason it should be allowed. Donate if you like, but not for money. |
I'm sure the taxes from the sale of the organ would cover any externalities. |
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Goku
Joined: 10 Dec 2008
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| Posted: Wed Sep 02, 2009 8:24 pm Post subject: |
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I'd argue...
If people are willing to the price, so be it.
If I had a starving family, with no means of work, I'd gladly give up a kidney so they wouldn't have to suffer anymore. It's not like I so much would ever even need an extra kidney anyways. If I was in bad enough shape that I needed the extra kidney I'd probably die anyways because I don't have the money to get medical help.
It's a serious win win situation... besides some dangling ethic morality issues that come into question... but I think all is justified if no one is hurt or damaged in this process and this doesn't affect the future too much either in terms of organ smuggling and a breadth of questionable possibilities that can emerge with legalization of it. Although, I highly doubt it would get so grand scale. People are desperate for Organs but it's not like everyone needs one...
You can see the market flooded with kidneys.
It's not like people can donate the harder to find ones like a heart. |
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Rusty Shackleford
Joined: 08 May 2008
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| Posted: Wed Sep 02, 2009 8:26 pm Post subject: |
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| kabrams wrote: |
No.
Because just like "selling babies" there are poor people the world over who will be taken advantage of.
A kidney here. A heart here. A lung there. You'll have mothers killing themselves for the $1,000 they MIGHT pay her to give up a kidney. |
This is patently ridiculous. No one is advocating live organ donation, except for kidneys. |
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benji
Joined: 21 Jul 2009
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| Posted: Wed Sep 02, 2009 8:41 pm Post subject: |
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| The US is supposed to have an egalitarian waiting list for those in need of organs. Do you think the rich and powerful actually have to wait their turn with the riff raff? I say open the flood gates. Whats mine is mine. |
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kabrams
Joined: 15 Mar 2008
Location: your Dad's house
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| Posted: Wed Sep 02, 2009 8:43 pm Post subject: |
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| Rusty Shackleford wrote: |
| kabrams wrote: |
No.
Because just like "selling babies" there are poor people the world over who will be taken advantage of.
A kidney here. A heart here. A lung there. You'll have mothers killing themselves for the $1,000 they MIGHT pay her to give up a kidney. |
This is patently ridiculous. No one is advocating live organ donation, except for kidneys. |
The discussion is about SELLING organs, yes? |
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Rusty Shackleford
Joined: 08 May 2008
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| Posted: Wed Sep 02, 2009 8:47 pm Post subject: |
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| kabrams wrote: |
| Rusty Shackleford wrote: |
| kabrams wrote: |
No.
Because just like "selling babies" there are poor people the world over who will be taken advantage of.
A kidney here. A heart here. A lung there. You'll have mothers killing themselves for the $1,000 they MIGHT pay her to give up a kidney. |
This is patently ridiculous. No one is advocating live organ donation, except for kidneys. |
The discussion is about SELLING organs, yes? |
Did you read the article? It mentions kidneys only. I think you would be hard pressed to find anyone who advocates live organ donation. Most intelligent people see it as being able to receive money in order that WHEN YOU DIE your organs can be used. |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Wed Sep 02, 2009 8:51 pm Post subject: |
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| oldtactics wrote: |
| Same argument as women who sell their eggs to infertile couples. I say, if there's a demand, good for them for selling to the highest bidder. |
That's not really the same at all. No one needs eggs to be healthy, it's entirely optional. You do need at least one kidney to be healthy, and to be perfectly healthy you need two.
Eggs, sperm, blood, plasma, skin, hair; these are all things that can be taken without impairing our quality of life, and either will be replaced in time, or exist in far greater quantity than is actually needed by the person donating. It's hard to reasonably compare that to something like a kidney. |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Wed Sep 02, 2009 9:01 pm Post subject: Re: Selling Organs - Should we be allowed to? |
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| Rusty Shackleford wrote: |
| Fox wrote: |
| cubanlord wrote: |
| On the one hand, we should be able to do what we want with our own bodies; they're one of the only things we can actually say is ours. On the other hand, you deal with ethical issues. |
Further, as soon as you allow the actual outright sale of organs, the organ donation system is over and done with. No one would donate their organs if they could will them to their family members after their death to be sold. Because of this, organ transplant procedures would both be more costly and be far less egalitarian. |
The opposite is actually true. If you can sell your organs after you die the price would fall to close to zero. So many organs would flood the market, hence driving down the cost. It's not as if every kidney would sell for $25,000 forever under a free market for organs. Econ 101. |
This doesn't interact with my point. An organ you have to buy is, of course, more expensive than a freely donated organ. As a result, you're now paying the exact same cost for the transplant, plus whatever price the sellers demanded for the organ. Even if they sell it fairly cheaply (and they wouldn't; prices wouldn't be sitting at $25,000, but they certainly would never drop to "close to zero" given how needed they are), it's still going to cost you more than a freely donated organ.
| Rusty Shackleford wrote: |
| Fox wrote: |
In addition to that, many nations have government provided health care. Donating an organ almost invariably comes with a rise in health care requirements. Society having to pick up the tab on your rising health care costs just because you wanted to make some quick money doesn't seem reasonable to me.
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Basically isn't that the central problem with socialized medicine? A free rider issue where you can drink, smoke, eat pop tarts for breakfast and donate a kidney but still receive the same level level of care as a responsible individual. |
I would say yes, this is the greatest challenge for socialized medicine, while the greatest challenge for purely private medicine is that it results in unnecessary suffering for the lower class. I think we disagree about which is the lesser evil.
| Rusty Shackleford wrote: |
| Having said that, is it even true that donating a kidney lowers your health outcomes over the long term? |
My understanding is that it does, but to be entirely honest, I have no outright statistical data at hand. If it really doesn't, then the socialized medicine objection fades away. |
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