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ontheway
Joined: 24 Aug 2005
Location: Somewhere under the rainbow...
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 Posted: Tue Sep 01, 2009 8:32 am Post subject: Innocent but Dead * the Death Penalty kills innocent man |
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Innocent but Dead
BOB HERBERT
Published: August 31, 2009
There is a long and remarkable article in the current New Yorker about a man who was executed in Texas in 2004 for deliberately setting a fire that killed his three small children. Rigorous scientific analysis has since shown that there was no evidence that the fire in a one-story, wood frame house in Corsicana was the result of arson, as the authorities had alleged.
In other words, it was an accident. No crime had occurred.
Cameron Todd Willingham, who refused to accept a guilty plea that would have spared his life, and who insisted until his last painful breath that he was innocent, had in fact been telling the truth all along.
It was inevitable that some case in which a clearly innocent person had been put to death would come to light. It was far from inevitable that this case would be the one. �I was extremely skeptical in the beginning,� said the New Yorker reporter, David Grann, who began investigating the case last December.
The fire broke out on the morning of Dec. 23, 1991. Willingham was awakened by the cries of his 2-year-old daughter, Amber. Also in the house were his year-old twin girls, Karmon and Kameron. The family was poor, and Willingham�s wife, Stacy, had gone out to pick up a Christmas present for the children from the Salvation Army.
Willingham said he tried to rescue the kids but was driven back by smoke and flames. At one point his hair caught fire. As the heat intensified, the windows of the children�s room exploded and flames leapt out. Willingham, who was 23 at the time, had to be restrained and eventually handcuffed as he tried again to get into the room.
There was no reason to believe at first that the fire was anything other than a horrible accident. But fire investigators, moving slowly through the ruined house, began seeing things (not unlike someone viewing a Rorschach pattern) that they interpreted as evidence of arson.
They noticed deep charring at the base of some of the walls and patterns of soot that made them suspicious. They noticed what they felt were ominous fracture patterns in pieces of broken window glass. They had no motive, but they were convinced the fire had been set. And if it had been set, who else but Willingham would have set it?
With no real motive in sight, the local district attorney, Pat Batchelor, was quoted as saying, �The children were interfering with his beer drinking and dart throwing.�
Willingham was arrested and charged with capital murder.
When official suspicion fell on Willingham, eyewitness testimony began to change. Whereas initially he was described by neighbors as screaming and hysterical � �My babies are burning up!� � and desperate to have the children saved, he now was described as behaving oddly, and not having made enough of an effort to get to the girls.
And you could almost have guaranteed that a jailhouse snitch would emerge. They almost always do. This time his name was Johnny Webb, a jumpy individual with a lengthy arrest record who would later admit to being �mentally impaired� and on medication, and who had started taking illegal drugs at the age of 9.
The jury took barely an hour to return a guilty verdict, and Willingham was sentenced to death.
He remained on death row for 12 years, but it was only in the weeks leading up to his execution that convincing scientific evidence of his innocence began to emerge. A renowned scientist and arson investigator, Gerald Hurst, educated at Cambridge and widely recognized as a brilliant chemist, reviewed the evidence in the Willingham case and began systematically knocking down every indication of arson.
The authorities were unmoved. Willingham was executed by lethal injection on Feb. 17, 2004.
Now comes a report on the case from another noted scientist, Craig Beyler, who was hired by a special commission, established by the state of Texas to investigate errors and misconduct in the handling of forensic evidence.
The report is devastating, the kind of disclosure that should send a tremor through one�s conscience. There was absolutely no scientific basis for determining that the fire was arson, said Beyler. No basis at all. He added that the state fire marshal who investigated the case and testified against Willingham �seems to be wholly without any realistic understanding of fires.� He said the marshal�s approach seemed to lack �rational reasoning� and he likened it to the practices �of mystics or psychics.�
Grann told me on Monday that when he recently informed the jailhouse snitch, Johnny Webb, that new scientific evidence would show that the fire wasn�t arson and that an innocent man had been killed, Webb seemed taken aback. �Nothing can save me now,� he said. |
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/09/01/opinion/01herbert.html?_r=1
A version of this article appeared in print on September 1, 2009, on page A29 of the New York edition. |
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ontheway
Joined: 24 Aug 2005
Location: Somewhere under the rainbow...
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| Posted: Tue Sep 01, 2009 8:35 am Post subject: |
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The death penalty is barbaric. It must be abolished.
The state prosecutors and the fire marshal in this case should be tried for murder. If convicted they should not receive the death penalty. |
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bacasper
Joined: 26 Mar 2007
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| Posted: Tue Sep 01, 2009 9:05 am Post subject: |
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| ontheway wrote: |
The death penalty is barbaric. It must be abolished.
The state prosecutors and the fire marshal in this case should be tried for murder. If convicted they should not receive the death penalty. |
Agreed on all points. Too bad prosecutors enjoy immunity. If they didn't, they'd be a lot more careful about the cases they prosecute.
That is a horrific story. |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Tue Sep 01, 2009 3:02 pm Post subject: |
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| ontheway wrote: |
The death penalty is barbaric. It must be abolished.
The state prosecutors and the fire marshal in this case should be tried for murder. If convicted they should not receive the death penalty. |
Agreed. |
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Captain Corea
Joined: 28 Feb 2005
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Tue Sep 01, 2009 6:04 pm Post subject: |
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| If what the articles says is true, then that man lost everything. I hope though someone finds him some justice. |
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djsmnc
Joined: 20 Jan 2003
Location: Dave's ESL Cafe
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| Posted: Tue Sep 01, 2009 10:20 pm Post subject: |
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| He still could have done it |
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yawarakaijin
Joined: 08 Aug 2006
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| Posted: Wed Sep 02, 2009 5:22 pm Post subject: |
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| djsmnc wrote: |
| He still could have done it |
I wish you would give up. I've been noticing a lot of you little quips on this board lately. Not one has been either mildly insightful or even remotely humorous. |
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itaewonguy
Joined: 25 Mar 2003
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| Posted: Wed Sep 02, 2009 11:03 pm Post subject: |
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| ontheway wrote: |
The death penalty is barbaric. It must be abolished.
The state prosecutors and the fire marshal in this case should be tried for murder. If convicted they should not receive the death penalty. |
but some of the crimes this sick people commit goes beyond barbaric..
so what do we do with those people?
Im think we should let family members kill them legally...
they can chose how they wish to kill them...
a bomb strapped to the guy, or a sword and chop off his head,
gas him, the chair, hanging, stoning to death..
should be left the victims families to decide... I mean why should the people who took away someones life actually have rights???
if you ask me, any murderer should be locked in a small hole with no window and left to rot!!! they dont deserve any humanitary votes!
you know in thailand they machine gun you death for capital punishment
America is to civil... bring back the chair I say! |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Wed Sep 02, 2009 11:12 pm Post subject: |
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| itaewonguy wrote: |
but some of the crimes this sick people commit goes beyond barbaric..
so what do we do with those people? |
Nothing that involves killing or torturing them, certainly.
| itaewonguy wrote: |
| I mean why should the people who took away someones life actually have rights??? |
For two reasons. Firstly, our criminal justice system is fallible. It's always possible they simply didn't commit the crime they were found guilty of. It's important any punishment inflicted can always be undone and compensated for, because at times it will need to be undone and compensated for.
Secondly, because even if they're guilty, they're still human beings. If they need to be removed from society for the protection of others, that's a shame, but torturing or killing them is inexcusable. Societly certainly doesn't benefit from their suffering; quite the opposite.
Which principle do you want our justice system to be based upon: minimization of harm, or revenge? Personally, I prefer the former. |
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crossmr
Joined: 22 Nov 2008
Location: Hwayangdong, Seoul
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| Posted: Wed Sep 02, 2009 11:21 pm Post subject: |
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There are unfortunately crimes that can be committed that are considered quite terrible. No one would want to see these people on the streets again.
Serial killers being one of them. These people are usually locked away for the rest of their lives with multiple life sentences.
Why take care of them for 50 years or more?
Especially given that some of them occasionally escape again.
The death penalty serves a limited purpose. Its sometimes applied too easily.
| Quote: |
| Which principle do you want our justice system to be based upon: minimization of harm, or revenge? Personally, I prefer the former. |
Its about being practical.
Why should they get off better than their victims? If a serial killer tortures, kills and otherwise violates a dozen people, why should they get a comfy cell, with books, and other things for the rest of their life? |
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itaewonguy
Joined: 25 Mar 2003
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| Posted: Wed Sep 02, 2009 11:28 pm Post subject: |
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| Fox wrote: |
| itaewonguy wrote: |
but some of the crimes this sick people commit goes beyond barbaric..
so what do we do with those people? |
Nothing that involves killing or torturing them, certainly.
| itaewonguy wrote: |
| I mean why should the people who took away someones life actually have rights??? |
For two reasons. Firstly, our criminal justice system is fallible. It's always possible they simply didn't commit the crime they were found guilty of. It's important any punishment inflicted can always be undone and compensated for, because at times it will need to be undone and compensated for.
Secondly, because even if they're guilty, they're still human beings. If they need to be removed from society for the protection of others, that's a shame, but torturing or killing them is inexcusable. Societly certainly doesn't benefit from their suffering; quite the opposite.
Which principle do you want our justice system to be based upon: minimization of harm, or revenge? Personally, I prefer the former. |
they are humans?? well so was the 8 year old girl who this monster raped serveral times, then killed her, and then chopped her up and left her in a suitcase! so you say, we should keep paying his bills, and let him have all rights???? wow tell that to the parents of the child!
He lost all his rights when he touched that child if you ask me...
he doesn't deserve anything... NOTHING..
and yes society does benefit from his suffering, we all know he is getting a taste of what those victims got!
do you watch MMA? boxing.. people enjoy watching people get beat up..
trust me society will enjoy knowing that scumbag is being tortured!
you sound like the teacher in school, when a child hits one kid in the face you tell that child to not hit children and promise to not do it again... and then ask the victim who is crying his eyes out if he is ok..while the kid who smashed the other kid just sits there untouched..
ummm so the child who just keeps going around hitting children in the face and leaves bruises on their faces only gets a "dont do that ok'?
you call that justice??
seems murderers get off pretty easy... kill someone, and then spend maybe 20 years behind bars, get your own room, tv, playstation, get an education all paid for by the government...
mean while familes lives have been torn apart and left to pick up the pieces...
justice???
no, The running man sounds good to me...
pay per view.. you got my 20 dollars...
you do make a point though some are innocent..
so maybe just torture the ones who confess to the crimes or we have enough evidence.. and if some fall through the cracks,. so be it! |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Wed Sep 02, 2009 11:51 pm Post subject: |
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| itaewonguy wrote: |
| they are humans?? |
Yes. I don't think that's really up for debate.
| itaewonguy wrote: |
| well so was the 8 year old girl who this monster raped serveral times, then killed her, and then chopped her up and left her in a suitcase! so you say, we should keep paying his bills, and let him have all rights???? |
Yes, I do, at least insofar as those rights are compatible with societal safety. Obviously his right to freedom of movement, for instance, must be limited while he remains a threat.
| itaewonguy wrote: |
| wow tell that to the parents of the child! |
Why? They're interested in revenge; I'm interested in justice. I have no reason to say anything to them, beyond expressing my condolences for their loss.
| itaewonguy wrote: |
| He lost all his rights when he touched that child if you ask me... |
It's a shame you feel that way.
| itaewonguy wrote: |
you sound like the teacher in school, when a child hits one kid in the face you tell that child to not hit children and promise to not do it again... and then ask the victim who is crying his eyes out if he is ok..while the kid who smashed the other kid just sits there untouched..
ummm so the child who just keeps going around hitting children in the face and leaves bruises on their faces only gets a "dont do that ok'? |
I didn't realize locking someone away from society for life was the equivalent of a "Don't do that, okay?" I wouldn't mind someone saying, "Don't do that, okay?" to me. I'd be seriously upset to be imprisoned for life.
| itaewonguy wrote: |
| you call that justice?? |
I certainly don't call your crazy torture and murder system justice.
| itaewonguy wrote: |
seems murderers get off pretty easy... kill someone, and then spend maybe 20 years behind bars, get your own room, tv, playstation, get an education all paid for by the government...
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Yes, I'm certain that the prisoners are counting their blessings, content to be locked away rather than being free.
| itaewonguy wrote: |
| so maybe just torture the ones who confess to the crimes or we have enough evidence.. and if some fall through the cracks,. so be it! |
Good way to ensure no one confesses, ever.
I'm sorry, but if you really believe what you've written here, you're out of your mind. |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Wed Sep 02, 2009 11:56 pm Post subject: |
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| crossmr wrote: |
Why take care of them for 50 years or more?
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Compassion.
| crossmr wrote: |
| Especially given that some of them occasionally escape again. |
Almost never.
| crossmr wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Which principle do you want our justice system to be based upon: minimization of harm, or revenge? Personally, I prefer the former. |
Its about being practical.
Why should they get off better than their victims? If a serial killer tortures, kills and otherwise violates a dozen people, why should they get a comfy cell, with books, and other things for the rest of their life? |
Because we aren't a society of monsters; we can condemn evil actions and protect our citizens without torturing or killing those that enacted the evil. They might be wayward siblings, but they're still our brothers and sisters. |
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itaewonguy
Joined: 25 Mar 2003
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| Posted: Thu Sep 03, 2009 3:29 am Post subject: |
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| Fox wrote: |
| itaewonguy wrote: |
| they are humans?? |
Yes. I don't think that's really up for debate.
| itaewonguy wrote: |
| well so was the 8 year old girl who this monster raped serveral times, then killed her, and then chopped her up and left her in a suitcase! so you say, we should keep paying his bills, and let him have all rights???? |
Yes, I do, at least insofar as those rights are compatible with societal safety. Obviously his right to freedom of movement, for instance, must be limited while he remains a threat.
| itaewonguy wrote: |
| wow tell that to the parents of the child! |
Why? They're interested in revenge; I'm interested in justice. I have no reason to say anything to them, beyond expressing my condolences for their loss.
| itaewonguy wrote: |
| He lost all his rights when he touched that child if you ask me... |
It's a shame you feel that way.
| itaewonguy wrote: |
you sound like the teacher in school, when a child hits one kid in the face you tell that child to not hit children and promise to not do it again... and then ask the victim who is crying his eyes out if he is ok..while the kid who smashed the other kid just sits there untouched..
ummm so the child who just keeps going around hitting children in the face and leaves bruises on their faces only gets a "dont do that ok'? |
I didn't realize locking someone away from society for life was the equivalent of a "Don't do that, okay?" I wouldn't mind someone saying, "Don't do that, okay?" to me. I'd be seriously upset to be imprisoned for life.
| itaewonguy wrote: |
| you call that justice?? |
I certainly don't call your crazy torture and murder system justice.
| itaewonguy wrote: |
seems murderers get off pretty easy... kill someone, and then spend maybe 20 years behind bars, get your own room, tv, playstation, get an education all paid for by the government...
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Yes, I'm certain that the prisoners are counting their blessings, content to be locked away rather than being free.
| itaewonguy wrote: |
| so maybe just torture the ones who confess to the crimes or we have enough evidence.. and if some fall through the cracks,. so be it! |
Good way to ensure no one confesses, ever.
I'm sorry, but if you really believe what you've written here, you're out of your mind. |
dude , you need to be locked away... |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Thu Sep 03, 2009 3:35 am Post subject: |
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| itaewonguy wrote: |
| dude , you need to be locked away... |
I need to be locked away for suggesting people shouldn't be murdered and tortured? What the Hell is wrong with you? |
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