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earthbound14
Joined: 23 Jan 2007
Location: seoul
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 Posted: Sat Sep 05, 2009 10:03 pm Post subject: |
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| crossmr wrote: |
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| If people get drunk...well that's another story. Women should be careful around drunk men, and men should be careful when they are drunk. |
Drunk women are never at fault in your world? Only drunk men are responsible for their actions! Now we see the bias very clearly. |
Considering the nature of rape it makes sense. We do the penetrating. It's not like a woman can force me to have sex....so matter how drunk I am. But if you turn it around, a sober man can more eaily take advantage of a drunk woman.
It's not that women aren't responsible either, it's just they have more to lose from rape and are more easily raped. So it would make sense for women to be a little more careful with their bodies, while we men can take certain risks without as much worry (unless of course there are laws there to even the playing field).
I have no bias other than that of reality. |
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crossmr
Joined: 22 Nov 2008
Location: Hwayangdong, Seoul
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| Posted: Sat Sep 05, 2009 10:10 pm Post subject: |
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| It's not like a woman can force me to have sex....so matter how drunk I am |
Sure they can. If you're drunk, you're highly suggestible. While its stereotypical, it isn't only women who regret the night before. They can just as easily continue to coerce and seduce after you've said no. If you're so drunk that you're not in control, they can force you into bed and have their way with you.
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| it's just they have more to lose from rape and are more easily raped |
Is it easier or impossible? With custody laws and support laws being heavily in favor of women, guys could lose plenty from being raped by a woman. Especially considering 99% of the people he talked to would never believe he was raped.
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| So it would make sense for women to be a little more careful with their bodies, |
That isn't what you said, you held the guys to a much higher level of responsibility. That apparently guys are capable of controlling themselves when drunk, but women are not.
But if guys have so much ability to control themselves when drunk and thus can be careful, why is it that women need to be careful around drunk guys? |
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earthbound14
Joined: 23 Jan 2007
Location: seoul
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| Posted: Sun Sep 06, 2009 6:46 am Post subject: |
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| crossmr wrote: |
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| So it would make sense for women to be a little more careful with their bodies, |
That isn't what you said, you held the guys to a much higher level of responsibility. That apparently guys are capable of controlling themselves when drunk, but women are not.
But if guys have so much ability to control themselves when drunk and thus can be careful, why is it that women need to be careful around drunk guys? |
You're taking this quote too seriously, it was a matter of advice, not one of accountability.
No matter what state people are in they should be held accountable, but let's be honest, the nature of erections kind of makes it tough for a man to be raped, especially a drunk one. Men are able to perform when they want to, not when they are forced to. Admittedly my lad has betrayed me on one occasion, but it was hardly rape. I figured she earned it with all her hard work. Yes, my friends laughed at me the next day, but the tales of my amazing ability circulated around the the community like wildfire, from one girl to the next....Who knew?
That is the only reason what I said was lop sided.
A drunk women is fun...or potentially a rape case wating to happen...
but a drunk guy is more likely not going to pay attention to the words "stop" or "no" and be a less likely a rape victim... unless you are at a gay bar. |
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Adventurer
Joined: 28 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Sun Sep 06, 2009 9:25 am Post subject: Re: Concerning sex: Can "No" mean "Yes"? |
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| kabrams wrote: |
I found this appropriate given the other thread in General Discussion where some people believed that going to a hotel room = assumption/expectation of sex.
http://www.washingtoncitypaper.com/blogs/sexist/2009/08/28/sexist-beatdown-no-means-yes-not-just-for-frat-dudes-anymore/
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Last month, Dan Kahan of Yale University Law School released a study examining the cultural factors at play in popular reactions to rape cases. Kahan�s research question was straightforward: If a person voices �repeated verbal objections� to a sex act, is it rape?
In other words, who among us thinks that �no� really means �no,� and who thinks that �no� is just a handy excuse for loose women? As it turns out, knowing that �no� means �no� has little to do with your gender, and a lot to do with what you think about gender.
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Read the source to understand this next quote:
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| The defendant testified in his own behalf. He admitted that he initiate[d] the first physical contact, but added that the victim warmly responded to his advances by passionately returning his kisses. He conceded that she was continually �whispering � no�s,� but claimed that she did so while �amorously . . . passionately� moaning. In effect, he took such protests to be thinly veiled acts of encouragement. |
So the question is, if someone repeatedly says "no" or "stop", but doesn't physically fight back, is it "rape"?
(Of course it is, but I'm just trying to understand the other side that says that it is not). |
I don't know much about that case, but if a woman doesn't want someone's physical advances, groaning and giving passionate kisses makes no sense. I read a little of that blog. She kept saying no, she had a boyfriend, you don't shove a girl and that sort of thing. That's a clear rape to me. However, I wouldn't call it sexual assault if you kiss a girl and she says no, and later you try again. However, this is clear.
No, if a girl goes to your hotel room, it doesn't mean you are entitled to sex. You still have to respect her, and she has a right to change her mind just like a guy can change his mind. Do you have to fight back for it to be rape? No.
However, should you moan and grown and kiss someone passionately? No, because it sends contradictory signals, and if you're in a hotel with him, you're in a compromised position, possibly. It's not common sense. If I had a daughter, I wouldn't want my daughter in a hotel room with a guy unless he's her boyfriend, they've been together for a while and what not.
There can be cases where a woman really wants to have sex, but is trying to sound proper in some cultures, and he thinks he just needs to break down her defences. I wouldn't do that. She has to be initiating the physical stuff to some extent or it's not consent.
That's my take... |
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AmericanExile
Joined: 04 May 2009
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| Posted: Sun Sep 06, 2009 4:45 pm Post subject: |
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| earthbound14 wrote: |
| Men are able to perform when they want to, not when they are forced to. |
Earth shatteringly wrong. This is old think. There used to be the idea of implied consent in law. If a man got an erection, he wanted it. This idea may still be in the law in some places, but it is going by the wayside. People can and do become physically aroused against their will even when being raped.
Remember many physical responses are controlled in base of the brain. Conscious thought has no part in the process. This goes for both men and women. There are things you can do to arouse a body even while the person is sobbing or screaming in horror. You simply have no control over it. This is often used by rapists as proof their victims really wanted it.
This is one of the many things that makes this a really complex issue. There are no simple answers. The horror of the crime makes us want it to be simple. Even no means no isn't as simple as people like to present it. Why? What is "no?" Is no just no or can it be stop also? How about "I don't want to do this?" "We shouldn't do this." "This is wrong." Any of these could mean no. They may not. This is part of the confusion. What we really need is a universal safe word that has no other purpose but to make it clear you do not wish to engage in sex. I suggest "filk", but I suck at inventing words. Then you are confronted by a person making the decision to say a word that has one clear distinct meaning. It's not a word you say reflexively. It's not something that can mean more than one thing in the situation as in "no" meaning I don't want to have sex or "no" meaning don't stop rubbing that yet.
Confusion is understandable. The only serious effort we have made to eliminate it is, let's be honest, confusing.
Make it simple. Someone says filk and all physical contact must immediately cease and cannot be resumed for 24 hours by either party or it is a crime. I could be that simple. The fact that it isn't that simple suggests to me we don't want it to be. This is a bad situation that we have created and must want. The only other option is I am Wyle E. Coyote supergenius, and I am the first person to make this rather obvious suggestion. More likely humans love misery. |
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peppermint
Joined: 13 May 2003
Location: traversing the minefields of caddishness.
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| Posted: Sun Sep 06, 2009 5:00 pm Post subject: |
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| To all the guys talking about women moaning and then considering it rape, and how wrong it is - people moan and whimper in fear and horror too, not just desire. |
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earthbound14
Joined: 23 Jan 2007
Location: seoul
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| Posted: Sun Sep 06, 2009 5:51 pm Post subject: |
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| peppermint wrote: |
| To all the guys talking about women moaning and then considering it rape, and how wrong it is - people moan and whimper in fear and horror too, not just desire. |
the moaning from mild pain sounds very similar to pleasure from some people |
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ReeseDog
Joined: 05 Apr 2008
Location: Classified
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| Posted: Sun Sep 06, 2009 6:07 pm Post subject: |
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No means no. If you even think you hear her say no at any point in the game, get away from that fuzzy little critter like it was a hand grenade dipped in swine flu.
It ain't worth the hassle, fellas. Move along. Finding one who will say yes isn't terribly difficult, and it beats having to try to explain later on how you thought her moaning had to do with what a stud you are. |
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earthbound14
Joined: 23 Jan 2007
Location: seoul
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| Posted: Sun Sep 06, 2009 6:22 pm Post subject: |
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| AmericanExile wrote: |
| earthbound14 wrote: |
| Men are able to perform when they want to, not when they are forced to. |
Earth shatteringly wrong. This is old think.
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I wouldn't say this is earth shattering. I am well aware that the body may do things that do not match actual desire.
It still does not change the fact that the mind has a very strong role to play in arousal. Some times, no matter how hard you flog the old boy...he just isn't keen if you aren't.
It is harder to rape a man, either because men are usually stronger or because they may not be erect or becuase men are less likely to refuse sex (we do have less to lose - we don't get pregnant)...Stats do support this (overwhelmingly). Rape is predominantly something that is done by men to women. That doesn't mean it doesn't happen to men or because of women.
Arguing this is not really all that important.
Besides the law would protect men in the same situation. It's not like it would be a woman only law.
Yes, it may be confusing, but that means people need to be clear and courts need to be careful. Maybe a single word is in order.
It just doesn't seem that hard to me. If a women is unclear about her wants...I walk. I have no real interest in being with a girl who isn't all hot and ready to go anyway. If you're needin cold fish and confused girls to round out your numbers....
I just don't see why there is so much arguing about this. |
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