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Rusty Shackleford
Joined: 08 May 2008
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 Posted: Sun Sep 06, 2009 10:46 pm Post subject: Abolish the minimum wage. |
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http://mises.org/story/3696
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Interestingly, there is a corresponding trend affecting those who are getting their first jobs out of college. It turns out that half of college graduates under the age of 25 are working in jobs that require no college education at all. Think of Starbucks, the Gap, Target, and the like. Not that there is anything wrong with these jobs. But here's the thing: these positions used to be held by young people before they finished college (which is in turn devoting itself to remedial education on the basics). |
This article isn't really interesting in and of itself. It's fairly run of the mill for anti minimum wage pieces and I doubt few on this board actually believe in minimum wage laws or would try to defend them.
I think it is more interesting in that it highlights the disparity in rational thought between the MSM and those rational folk who put their work out there. I guess the question I pose to all you out there is, why is rational thought such a rare commodity in our every day lives? And why, when it is so readily abundant, is it so rarely utilized by those who really matter? |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Sun Sep 06, 2009 10:57 pm Post subject: Re: Abolish the minimum wage. |
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| Rusty Shackleford wrote: |
http://mises.org/story/3696
| Quote: |
Interestingly, there is a corresponding trend affecting those who are getting their first jobs out of college. It turns out that half of college graduates under the age of 25 are working in jobs that require no college education at all. Think of Starbucks, the Gap, Target, and the like. Not that there is anything wrong with these jobs. But here's the thing: these positions used to be held by young people before they finished college (which is in turn devoting itself to remedial education on the basics). |
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You really need to add the next paragraph for the first to make its point.
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| Do you see what is happening here? The minimum wage, subsidized college loans, child work laws, and other interventions are conspiring to prolong adolescence as long as possible � to the point that these young adults are seeing as much as a full decade of life experience pretty well stolen from them. |
Pretty interesting argument. I always used to think of minimum wage as harmless but not particularly beneficial. |
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Rusty Shackleford
Joined: 08 May 2008
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| Posted: Sun Sep 06, 2009 11:10 pm Post subject: Re: Abolish the minimum wage. |
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| Kuros wrote: |
| Rusty Shackleford wrote: |
http://mises.org/story/3696
| Quote: |
Interestingly, there is a corresponding trend affecting those who are getting their first jobs out of college. It turns out that half of college graduates under the age of 25 are working in jobs that require no college education at all. Think of Starbucks, the Gap, Target, and the like. Not that there is anything wrong with these jobs. But here's the thing: these positions used to be held by young people before they finished college (which is in turn devoting itself to remedial education on the basics). |
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You really need to add the next paragraph for the first to make its point.
| Quote: |
| Do you see what is happening here? The minimum wage, subsidized college loans, child work laws, and other interventions are conspiring to prolong adolescence as long as possible � to the point that these young adults are seeing as much as a full decade of life experience pretty well stolen from them. |
Pretty interesting argument. I always used to think of minimum wage as harmless but not particularly beneficial. |
Thomas Sowell has had the last word on minimum wage about 47 times.
http://www.capmag.com/article.asp?ID=4472
http://www.jewishworldreview.com/cols/sowell110503.asp
http://www.amatecon.com/etext/mwe/mwe.html
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2008/06/the_imitators.html |
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shifter2009
Joined: 03 Sep 2006
Location: wisconsin
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| Posted: Sun Sep 06, 2009 11:24 pm Post subject: |
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| Interesting article but he seems to really tie to much to minim wage without mentioning any of the other factors that go into it the job issues his discusses. He also talks about child labor laws like they're a bad thing. I suppose we could dump the minim wage and start opening up child sweat shops to compete with the Chinese, buff up the kids resumes. |
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Rusty Shackleford
Joined: 08 May 2008
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| Posted: Sun Sep 06, 2009 11:30 pm Post subject: |
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| shifter2009 wrote: |
| Interesting article but he seems to really tie to much to minim wage without mentioning any of the other factors that go into it the job issues his discusses. He also talks about child labor laws like they're a bad thing. I suppose we could dump the minim wage and start opening up child sweat shops to compete with the Chinese, buff up the kids resumes. |
That is a trope that is often carted out in defense of the min wage. But why would a middle class family send their kids out to work? They don't need the money and the kids will earn a higher future wage by staying in school. |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Sun Sep 06, 2009 11:33 pm Post subject: |
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| Rusty Shackleford wrote: |
| That is a trope that is often carted out in defense of the min wage. But why would a middle class family send their kids out to work? They don't need the money and the kids will earn a higher future wage by staying in school. |
The average middle class family is in debt. What makes you think they don't need the money? Further, if you're looking at things purely objectively, for a lot of kids staying in school actually won't earn them more money. If a kid's not going to go to college for an in-demand field, skipping out of school and picking up a trade young might well make them earn more over time rather than less.
Also, what about the lower class? |
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shifter2009
Joined: 03 Sep 2006
Location: wisconsin
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| Posted: Sun Sep 06, 2009 11:59 pm Post subject: |
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| Rusty Shackleford wrote: |
| shifter2009 wrote: |
| Interesting article but he seems to really tie to much to minim wage without mentioning any of the other factors that go into it the job issues his discusses. He also talks about child labor laws like they're a bad thing. I suppose we could dump the minim wage and start opening up child sweat shops to compete with the Chinese, buff up the kids resumes. |
That is a trope that is often carted out in defense of the min wage. But why would a middle class family send their kids out to work? They don't need the money and the kids will earn a higher future wage by staying in school. |
I came from an upper middle class family and I got sent out to work at 15. My dad didn't want me asking for money so he made me earn it. Had nothing to do with minim wage or class. The problem here is that the author just throws down unemployment numbers and then just points to the minim wage rather other factors like the increasing numbers of people going to college while the real demand in the job market is in skilled trades. To many English teachers, not enough plumbers. I am not discounting that minim wage maybe a factor or even a big factor but this article doesn't make a real strong argument. |
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Sergio Stefanuto
Joined: 14 May 2009
Location: UK
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| Posted: Mon Sep 07, 2009 12:16 am Post subject: |
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The minimum wage obviously creates unemployment directly and inflation indirectly - meaning the group we initially wished to help, the poor, have fewer jobs available and a higher cost of living. Brilliant! 
If the govt set a minimum price on bread - $5 per loaf - would you buy less bread? I wouldn't buy any! If yes, why do you expect employers to purchase less labor if the cost is higher than they would pay given the choice?
The child labor argument spectacularly fails:
Obvious reason: legislation forbidding child labor
Other reason: if VCR's became $1, would it affect the DVD industry? Doubt it. There's no market for VCR's even if you give them away. There's also no market for child labor even if one were created. |
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Rusty Shackleford
Joined: 08 May 2008
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| Posted: Mon Sep 07, 2009 12:39 am Post subject: |
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| Fox wrote: |
| Rusty Shackleford wrote: |
| That is a trope that is often carted out in defense of the min wage. But why would a middle class family send their kids out to work? They don't need the money and the kids will earn a higher future wage by staying in school. |
The average middle class family is in debt. What makes you think they don't need the money? Further, if you're looking at things purely objectively, for a lot of kids staying in school actually won't earn them more money. If a kid's not going to go to college for an in-demand field, skipping out of school and picking up a trade young might well make them earn more over time rather than less.
Also, what about the lower class? |
The first part of your response is laughable.
The second part makes a lot of sense. Although high minimum wage laws make it unworkable. Btw, I'm talking 14-15 year olds, not 7 year olds.
As for the lower class, abolishing the minimum wage would be one of the single most useful ways of raising them out of the poverty. Read what the links I posted from Mr. Sowell. He argues the case far more elloquently than I could ever hope to do. |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Mon Sep 07, 2009 12:43 am Post subject: |
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| Rusty Shackleford wrote: |
| As for the lower class, abolishing the minimum wage would be one of the single most useful ways of raising them out of the poverty. Read what the links I posted from Mr. Sowell. He argues the case far more elloquently than I could ever hope to do. |
I'm actually just talking about the child labor laws. I'm not sure how I feel about minimum wage; I understand the arguments of the people against it, but I'm uncertain if they're actually correct. |
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Rusty Shackleford
Joined: 08 May 2008
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| Posted: Mon Sep 07, 2009 12:44 am Post subject: |
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| shifter2009 wrote: |
| Rusty Shackleford wrote: |
| shifter2009 wrote: |
| Interesting article but he seems to really tie to much to minim wage without mentioning any of the other factors that go into it the job issues his discusses. He also talks about child labor laws like they're a bad thing. I suppose we could dump the minim wage and start opening up child sweat shops to compete with the Chinese, buff up the kids resumes. |
That is a trope that is often carted out in defense of the min wage. But why would a middle class family send their kids out to work? They don't need the money and the kids will earn a higher future wage by staying in school. |
I came from an upper middle class family and I got sent out to work at 15. My dad didn't want me asking for money so he made me earn it. Had nothing to do with minim wage or class. The problem here is that the author just throws down unemployment numbers and then just points to the minim wage rather other factors like the increasing numbers of people going to college while the real demand in the job market is in skilled trades. To many English teachers, not enough plumbers. I am not discounting that minim wage maybe a factor or even a big factor but this article doesn't make a real strong argument. |
When you say your father sent you out to work, did you also leave school? I also started working around 15-16, though I was raised on a farm so I already had a lot of work experience.
The purpose of entry level jobs is to learn how to work. The minimum wage stops young people from having the chance to learn how to work, as it were. Politicians trumpet the min wage laws as providing a "living wage" for families, when fully 4 in 5 min wage earners have no dependants.
Again, if you want some hard facts on min wage laws, read the links I posted from Mr. Sowell. |
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Rusty Shackleford
Joined: 08 May 2008
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| Posted: Mon Sep 07, 2009 12:47 am Post subject: |
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| Fox wrote: |
| Rusty Shackleford wrote: |
| As for the lower class, abolishing the minimum wage would be one of the single most useful ways of raising them out of the poverty. Read what the links I posted from Mr. Sowell. He argues the case far more elloquently than I could ever hope to do. |
I'm actually just talking about the child labor laws. I'm not sure how I feel about minimum wage; I understand the arguments of the people against it, but I'm uncertain if they're actually correct. |
I in no way shape or form endorse child labor. No one is suggesting abolishing child labor laws. If you still believe in min wage laws you need to educate yourself. There is literally no rational, fact base defense of min wage laws. And if their were I would back myself fully to completely debunk each and every facet of the authors argument. |
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Sergio Stefanuto
Joined: 14 May 2009
Location: UK
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| Posted: Mon Sep 07, 2009 1:51 am Post subject: |
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| Fox wrote: |
| I understand the arguments of the people against it, but I'm uncertain if they're actually correct. |
Simple common sense is more than enough to rubbish the dogma of minimum wage and, indeed, all manner of economic and social policies so beloved of the left.
Fox, yes or no: if the price of your regular intake of beef was $5, would you buy more, less or the same amount of beef if the govt introduced a minimum beef price of $8?
Perhaps, out of the goodness of your heart, you'd buy the same, or more even! But I doubt it. The same principle applies to the price of labor. Perhaps you enjoy beef so much that an increase wouldn't matter?
In either case, you'd have less to spend on other things, which would hurt other industries and your savings. |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Mon Sep 07, 2009 2:34 am Post subject: |
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| Sergio Stefanuto wrote: |
| Fox, yes or no: if the price of your regular intake of beef was $5, would you buy more, less or the same amount of beef if the govt introduced a minimum beef price of $8? |
Same amount, not out of the goodness of my heart, but because I really like beef, and as such it's going to take a very substantial price shift to affect my demand. My proof is that I consume the same amount of beef in Korea that I did in America, despite it being more expensive.
I understand the point you're trying to make, but your economic laws don't apply very well to me. I genuinely desire so few products that the ones I actually like I can afford to sate myself on at any reasonable price without seriously affecting my financial status; prices barely affect my behavior at all. And it's precisely because they don't apply very well to me that I sometimes wonder exactly how much they really apply to the rest of the world as well. I understand, though, that you're absolutely convinced their true and don't wonder that at all, so I'm certainly not going to try to make a case to you regarding it. |
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Rusty Shackleford
Joined: 08 May 2008
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| Posted: Mon Sep 07, 2009 2:59 am Post subject: |
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| Fox wrote: |
| Sergio Stefanuto wrote: |
| Fox, yes or no: if the price of your regular intake of beef was $5, would you buy more, less or the same amount of beef if the govt introduced a minimum beef price of $8? |
Same amount, not out of the goodness of my heart, but because I really like beef, and as such it's going to take a very substantial price shift to affect my demand. My proof is that I consume the same amount of beef in Korea that I did in America, despite it being more expensive.
I understand the point you're trying to make, but your economic laws don't apply very well to me. I genuinely desire so few products that the ones I actually like I can afford to sate myself on at any reasonable price without seriously affecting my financial status; prices barely affect my behavior at all. And it's precisely because they don't apply very well to me that I sometimes wonder exactly how much they really apply to the rest of the world as well. I understand, though, that you're absolutely convinced their true and don't wonder that at all, so I'm certainly not going to try to make a case to you regarding it. |
Congratulations. You managed to spectacularly miss the point. Just because you don't understand the laws of supply and demand doesn't mean they magically don't apply to you.
The fact that price of goods don't effect your decisions mean two things. One. You are an irrational consumer. But don't worry, that is pretty common.
Two. Following on from that, although you believe your decisions have no effect on your financial status, the opposite is actually true. Because you don't respond to prices, you have less money to spend in other areas. The most important area being savings. The end product of this is lower future consumption.
Finally, do you really think that the answer you gave to the question satisfies the larger question? That being, if the price of labor rises, firms will choose to hire the same amount of labor or even increase it? Given that your demand for beef is elastic while the firms demand for labor is constrained by its production function and therefore likely to be inelastic. |
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