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Pluto
Joined: 19 Dec 2006
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 Posted: Sun Sep 06, 2009 12:03 pm Post subject: |
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| Pluto wrote: |
| itaewonguy wrote: |
| Pluto wrote: |
Yep, the state should not be in the revenge business.
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thank god you are not in power...
jesus.. If we were attacked by China or Russia you would just send out condolence cards to the millions of dead Americans.. and probably send an Envoy to Russia and say" PLEASE STOP ATTACKING US" |
I know, right. Can't you imagine what would happen if Dick "deficits don't matter" Cheney would do if he were in power. Perish the thought, really. |
What was this all about? It seems I got taken off course by a red herring. Protection of US sovereignty has nothing to do with criminal justice. |
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ReeseDog
Joined: 05 Apr 2008
Location: Classified
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| Posted: Sun Sep 06, 2009 12:35 pm Post subject: |
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| One should note, too, that the recidivism rate of executed criminals is absolutely zero. |
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itaewonguy
Joined: 25 Mar 2003
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| Posted: Sun Sep 06, 2009 11:13 pm Post subject: |
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| ontheway wrote: |
| itaewonguy wrote: |
| ontheway wrote: |
| itaewonguy wrote: |
| Fox wrote: |
Why is it that the pro-murder side of this argument keeps arguing that the death penalty shouldn't be expensive? In reality, it is expensive, and the only way to reduce that expense is by giving convicts sentenced to death fewer chances to appeal, which in turn increases the probability of the state murdering innocents.
The death penalty is expensive, and that cost is going to be paid in either tax dollars or in innocent blood. Personally, I'm not willing to pay for these executions with either, and I'm very proud my home state has no death sentence. But then, Wisconsin does a lot of things right. |
you guys have still not presented any evidence to show that its more expensive... some Stats if you please...
I personally think you are making this up... |
During the recent California budget deadlock, while reviewing the state budget, I was surprised to learn that it costs less than $8,000 per year to house prisoners. The budget line was $7,000 something, like $7600 dollars. It would be less for long term prisoners who do not need to be processed in and out. It would increase for elderly prisoners, of course.
Meanwhile, the stats for executions show that it routinely costs over $1,000,000 dollars to execute a prisoner. When you include the legal costs, appeals, and all the safeguards, plus, setting up for an execution, observers, media, security, public officials, dealing with the controversey by the Governor's office - it comes to well over a million dollars per execution.
It is much cheaper to house a prisoner for life than it is to execute him. |
media, observers, public officals do not get paid to attend the death..
safeguards? the room is already in place and fully equipt with the equipment needed for the procedure!
so I still don't see where the 1 million dollars is going...
now some one is milking the system and pocketing the money...
It doesn't cost 1 million dollars to kill someone... |
Here are the facts:
http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/costs-death-penalty
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North Carolina
North Carolina Spends More per Execution than on a Non-death Penalty Murder Case
The most comprehensive death penalty study in the country found that the death penalty costs North Carolina $2.16 million more per execution than the a non-death penalty murder case with a sentence of life imprisonment (. On a national basis, these figures translate to an extra cost of over $1 billion spent since 1976 on the death penalty. ("The Costs of Processing Murder Cases in North Carolina" Duke University, May 1993) |
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Florida
Florida Spends Millions Extra per Year on Death Penalty
Florida would save $51 million each year by punishing all first-degree murderers with life in prison without parole, according to estimates by the Palm Beach Post. Based on the 44 executions Florida has carried out since 1976, that amounts to an approximate cost of $24 million for each execution. This finding takes into account the relatively few inmates who are actually executed, as well as the time and effort expended on capital defendants who are tried but convicted of a lesser murder charge, and those whose death sentences are overturned on appeal. ("The High Price of Killing Killers," Palm Beach Post, January 4, 2000)
Florida Spent Average of $3.2 Million per Execution from 1973 to 1988
During that time period, Florida spent an estimated $57 million on the death penalty to achieve 18 executions. ("Bottom Line: Life in Prison One-Sixth as Expensive," Miami Herald, July 10, 1988) |
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California
California Spends Millions More on Capital Cases
California spends $90 Million dollars annually above and beyond the ordinary costs of the justice system on capital cases. $78 million of that total is incurred at the trial level (Sacramento Bee, March 18, 1988). In January 2003, despite a budge deficit, California Governor Gray Davis proposed building a new $220 million state of the art death row. ("San Quentin Debate: Death Row vs. Bay Views, New York Times, December 18, 2004).
The California Death Penalty System Costs Taxpayers More than $114 Million a Year
According to state and federal records obtained by The Los Angeles Times, maintaining the California death penalty system costs taxpayers more than $114 million a year beyond the cost of simply keeping the convicts locked up for life. This figure does not count the millions more spent on court costs to prosecute capital cases. The Times concluded that Californians and federal taxpayers have paid more than a quarter of a billion dollars for each of the state's 11 executions, and that it costs $90,000 more a year to house one inmate on death row, where each person has a private cell and extra guards, than in general prison population. This additional cost per prisoner adds up to $57.5 million in annual spending. ("Death Row Often Means a Long Life," Los Angeles Times, March 6, 2005).
1988 Cost Study by the Sacramento Bee
A study done by the Sacramento Bee (March 28, 1988) suggests that California would save $90 million per year if it were to abolish the death penalty. $78 million of these expenses are occurred at the trial level and would not be reduced by shortening appeals. ("CLOSING DEATH ROW WOULD SAVE STATE $90 MILLION A YEAR," Sacramento Bee, March 28, 1988). |
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California
Report of the California Commission on the Fair Administration of Justice
�The additional cost of confining an inmate to death row, as compared to the maximum security prisons where those sentenced to life without possibility of parole ordinarily serve their sentences, is $90,000 per year per inmate. With California�s current death row population of 670, that accounts for $63.3 million annually.�
Using conservative rough projections, the Commission estimates the annual costs of the present (death penalty) system to be $137 million per year.
The cost of the present system with reforms recommended by the Commission to ensure a fair process would be $232.7 million per year.
The cost of a system in which the number of death-eligible crimes was significantly narrowed would be $130 million per year.
The cost of a system which imposes a maximum penalty of lifetime incarceration instead of the death penalty would be $11.5 million per year.
Commission on the Fair Administration of Justice, June 30, 2008). |
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Kansas
Study Concludes Death Penalty is Costly Policy
In its review of death penalty expenses, the State of Kansas concluded that capital cases are 70% more expensive than comparable non-death penalty cases. The study counted death penalty case costs through to execution and found that the median death penalty case costs $1.26 million. Non-death penalty cases were counted through to the end of incarceration and were found to have a median cost of $740,000. For death penalty cases, the pre-trial and trial level expenses were the most expensive part, 49% of the total cost. The costs of appeals were 29% of the total expense, and the incarceration and execution costs accounted for the remaining 22%. In comparison to non-death penalty cases, the following findings were revealed:
The investigation costs for death-sentence cases were about 3 times greater than for non-death cases.
The trial costs for death cases were about 16 times greater than for non-death cases ($508,000 for death case; $32,000 for non-death case).
The appeal costs for death cases were 21 times greater.
The costs of carrying out (i.e. incarceration and/or execution) a death sentence were about half the costs of carrying out a non-death sentence in a comparable case.
Trials involving a death sentence averaged 34 days, including jury selection; non-death trials averaged about 9 days.
(Performance Audit Report: Costs Incurred for Death Penalty Cases: A K-GOAL Audit of the Department of Corrections) Read DPIC's Summary of the Kansas Cost Report. |
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Maryland
New Study Reveals Maryland Pays $37 Million for One Execution
A new study released by the Urban Institute on March 6, 2008 forecasted that the lifetime expenses of capitally-prosecuted cases since 1978 will cost Maryland taxpayers $186 million. That translates into at least $37.2 million for each of the state�s five executions since the state reenacted the death penalty. The study estimates that the average cost to Maryland taxpayers for reaching a single death sentence is $3 million - $1.9 million more than the cost of a non-death penalty case. (This includes investigation, trial, appeals, and incarceration costs.) The study examined 162 capital cases that were prosecuted between 1978 and 1999 and found that those cases will cost $186 million more than what those cases would have cost had the death penalty not existed as a punishment. At every phase of a case, according to the study, capital murder cases cost more than non-capital murder cases.
Of the 162 capital cases, there werer 106 cases in which a death sentence was sought but not handed down in Maryland. Those cases cost the state an additional $71 million compared to the cost non-death penalty cases. Those costs were incurred simply to seek the death penalty where the ultimate outcome was a life or long-term prison sentence.
(�Death penalty costs Md. more than life term,� by Jennifer McMenamin, The Baltimore Sun, March 6, 2008). Read the entire study here. |
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still doesn't say where the money is being spent...
2 million dollars now!! JESUS!! I'll shoot them for 100.000K each...
if its costing us as much as these stats say, then something seriously needs to be done...
reminds of the money being spent on marijauna, something like 5 billion dollars every year to just process majijuana offenders who have been caught with less than 1 gram...
not to mention the prisons are full with users and costing us more money ..
still , where is all the money going!???
2 million dollars.. some lawyers are milking this system... |
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ontheway
Joined: 24 Aug 2005
Location: Somewhere under the rainbow...
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| Posted: Mon Sep 07, 2009 7:05 am Post subject: |
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Now we have established the fact that the death penalty costs far more than life in prison, and that this gap is getting wider as time passes.
We have also shown that innocent people are executed.
This should be enough. But,
Let's consider how and why the death penalty is barbaric.
Let's start with the horrendous act of murder. Some awful crime, some evil animal that we are ashamed to call human has kidnapped, raped, tortured, eaten the living flesh and killed some sweet, beautiful, innocent human child. We have the perpetrator's face and voice on a tape of their own making. We have the perpetrator's DNA, hair, fingerprints, blood, maybe even a confession.
Does this person deserve any consideration? And once convicted, does this person have any rights at all?
In fact, many of us would want to kill this person. Certainly, the victim's parents, grandparents, siblings, other relatives, friends, teachers, neighbors and other truly honorable, caring people may want to either themselves or by the state as a proxy, torture, kill, execute and otherwise seek revenge on the convicted perpetrator. One could argue that such an animal deserves death and has no rights. This is an emotional appeal, and hard to argue against.
The truth is, however, it is not the rights of the perpetrator, nor is it from the perspective of the perpetrator, that such an execution becomes an act of barbarism.
The Death Penalty is barbaric because it lowers each of us and all of us to the same evil barbaric level as the perpetrator. It isn't that such an evil person should be protected. It's that we must protect ourselves and our own morality from comitting a similar act. Even though we may somehow be able to rationalize that the convicted, evil, animal perpetrator deserves it, imposing the Death Penalty on any other human being, no matter how evil, strips us of our own humanity. It strips us of our principles. It lowers us into the same immorality - a human that has taken the life of another human, when it was not an act of self defense.
The Death Penalty is barbaric, because by taking any human life, we make ourselves into barbarians. We strip ourselves of our own innocence. We take the life of another human being and we become less principled, less innocent, less moral, less honorable. Now matter how we try to justify this act, no matter what the emotional appeal: the state, the government, the people, must, absolutely and at all times, support, proclaim, and maintain, a principled, higher, morality of innocence that puts the sanctity of human life on the highest possible pinnacle. To defend our own rights, especially our right to life, to defend the very humanity that sets us apart and above the animals and predators of the Earth, we must maintain this high moral principle at all times.
As human beings, as principled higher beings endowed with wisdom and humanity, we must at all times protect our innocence and purity. We must never debase our humanity by engaging in the barbaric act of imposing a penalty of death on another human being. |
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ontheway
Joined: 24 Aug 2005
Location: Somewhere under the rainbow...
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bacasper
Joined: 26 Mar 2007
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| Posted: Thu Sep 10, 2009 8:04 am Post subject: |
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Do you think this will have an impact on the death penalty debate in Texas? What a horrific case. If this doesn't do it, nothing will.
I recall recently that Texas was streamlining its procedures so that those on death row could be executed more quickly.
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bacasper
Joined: 26 Mar 2007
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| Posted: Wed Sep 16, 2009 9:47 pm Post subject: |
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Ohio inmate 'traumatized' after failed execution
By ANDREW WELSH-HUGGINS, Associated Press Writer
COLUMBUS, Ohio � The lawyer for an inmate whose execution was halted after an unprecedented two hours said trying to put him to death again in a week could be a disaster.
Romell Broom is still recovering from Tuesday's prolonged execution attempt and is physically and emotionally traumatized, his attorney, Adele Shank, said Wednesday.
"It went so badly when he was walking in without injured veins, to go forward so soon afterward just seems to be inviting disaster," Shank said.
Gov. Ted Strickland's decision to stop Tuesday's execution and grant a one-week reprieve appeared to be unprecedented since capital punishment was declared constitutional and the nation resumed executions in the 1970s.
Inmates in several states have experienced delays with the injection of lethal chemicals, but those executions have always proceeded the same day.
Shank said one option was to ask Strickland to consider a request for clemency and to commute Broom's sentence.
Strickland said he is reviewing the incident and consulting with prison officials and others about the next step.
more at link
In this case, the sentence should be considered carried out, just like when a man survives a hanging. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Thu Sep 17, 2009 7:24 pm Post subject: |
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| ontheway wrote: |
No: the state, the government, the people, must, absolutely and at all times, support, proclaim, and maintain, a principled, higher, morality of innocence that puts the sanctity of human life on the highest possible pinnacle. To defend our own rights, especially our right to life, to defend the very humanity that sets us apart and above the animals and predators of the Earth, we must maintain this high moral principle at all times.
Except that never in recorded history has this principle been held by any society.
As human beings, as principled higher beings endowed with wisdom and humanity, we must at all times protect our innocence and purity. We must never debase our humanity by engaging in the barbaric act of imposing a penalty of death on another human being. |
Except that adult human beings (the ones who make laws and are in power) are not innocent or pure and this is a view of humanity that is at odds with human nature and will always be. |
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ontheway
Joined: 24 Aug 2005
Location: Somewhere under the rainbow...
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| Posted: Fri Sep 18, 2009 8:06 am Post subject: |
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| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| ontheway wrote: |
No: the state, the government, the people, must, absolutely and at all times, support, proclaim, and maintain, a principled, higher, morality of innocence that puts the sanctity of human life on the highest possible pinnacle. To defend our own rights, especially our right to life, to defend the very humanity that sets us apart and above the animals and predators of the Earth, we must maintain this high moral principle at all times.
Except that never in recorded history has this principle been held by any society.
As human beings, as principled higher beings endowed with wisdom and humanity, we must at all times protect our innocence and purity. We must never debase our humanity by engaging in the barbaric act of imposing a penalty of death on another human being. |
Except that adult human beings (the ones who make laws and are in power) are not innocent or pure and this is a view of humanity that is at odds with human nature and will always be. |
It is absolutely true that a large percentage of the human beings in power are not innocent or pure, perhaps an overwhelming majority, in the past and in the present day - in fact, in the US, a large percentage are evil, fascist-socialist Democrats and Republicans.
However, I cannot agree that the general population is the same. Among the general populace, most adult human beings are innocent and pure except for minor vices which are mere personal pecadillos and not social problems.
It actually appears inevitable that one day the sheep will wake up, cast aside their ignorance and fear, and rise against the oppression of the wolves in Washington. I refuse to share your misanthropic view of humanity. |
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itaewonguy
Joined: 25 Mar 2003
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| Posted: Fri Sep 18, 2009 11:29 pm Post subject: |
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SPOKANE, Wash. � A criminally insane killer who escaped during a mental hospital field trip to a county fair remained on the run Friday, and furious residents and officials wondered why such a dangerous person was out in public.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090919/ap_on_re_us/us_mental_institution_escape
To answer that question.. becuase people who oppose the death penalty have let him live.. so who will be his next victim??
ohh well, I guess the governments would rather our insane killer live than his next victim. Im sure the government will send out condolence cards to the victims family... |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Sat Sep 19, 2009 12:09 am Post subject: |
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| itaewonguy wrote: |
| To answer that question.. becuase people who oppose the death penalty have let him live.. |
No, it's because the people at the institution he was being held at were irresponsible. In fact, the state he's from -- Washington -- has the death penalty, so clearly its absence cannot be the cause of him being on the loose. |
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bacasper
Joined: 26 Mar 2007
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| Posted: Sat Sep 19, 2009 12:28 am Post subject: |
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| Fox wrote: |
| itaewonguy wrote: |
| To answer that question.. becuase people who oppose the death penalty have let him live.. |
No, it's because the people at the institution he was being held at were irresponsible. In fact, the state he's from -- Washington -- has the death penalty, so clearly its absence cannot be the cause of him being on the loose. |
Not only that, but the murder occurred in 1987, and up until last year he had been living in a halfway house in the community.
The man suffers from schizophrenia. Generally, if compliant with medication and properly supervised (granted, not always as easy as it sounds), such patients should remain symptom-free.
OTOH, he did have a history of escape. If anything, the failing was that of the treatment team which authorized his permission for the outing. |
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itaewonguy
Joined: 25 Mar 2003
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| Posted: Sat Sep 19, 2009 5:27 am Post subject: |
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well if they dont find him within 14 days and then his medicine runs out and he kills some little girl or something.. then what!? "im Sorry"
but seriously.. I can understand this case, he is mentally sick.. so he shouldnt be put to death... but he CERTAINLY shouldnt be allowed to leave the prison!! |
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ontheway
Joined: 24 Aug 2005
Location: Somewhere under the rainbow...
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| Posted: Sat Sep 19, 2009 7:16 am Post subject: |
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| itaewonguy wrote: |
well if they dont find him within 14 days and then his medicine runs out and he kills some little girl or something.. then what!? "im Sorry"
but seriously.. I can understand this case, he is mentally sick.. so he shouldnt be put to death... but he CERTAINLY shouldnt be allowed to leave the prison!! |
Once again you have gone way off topic.
This case is about the insanity defense. It has nothing to do with the death penalty. Washington State has the death penalty. But, this man was not convicted of any crime. He was not in prison. He was in a mental institution. In fact, he had been recommended for release as he was considered mentally stable enough to no longer require confinement. You cannot have a death penalty or prison time if you are not convicted of a crime. The man is not a convicted murderer. He was found innocent by reason of insanity. This item should be moved to a new thread re: the insanity defense. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Tue Sep 22, 2009 9:36 pm Post subject: |
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| ontheway wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| ontheway wrote: |
No: the state, the government, the people, must, absolutely and at all times, support, proclaim, and maintain, a principled, higher, morality of innocence that puts the sanctity of human life on the highest possible pinnacle. To defend our own rights, especially our right to life, to defend the very humanity that sets us apart and above the animals and predators of the Earth, we must maintain this high moral principle at all times.
Except that never in recorded history has this principle been held by any society.
As human beings, as principled higher beings endowed with wisdom and humanity, we must at all times protect our innocence and purity. We must never debase our humanity by engaging in the barbaric act of imposing a penalty of death on another human being. |
Except that adult human beings (the ones who make laws and are in power) are not innocent or pure and this is a view of humanity that is at odds with human nature and will always be. |
It is absolutely true that a large percentage of the human beings in power are not innocent or pure, perhaps an overwhelming majority, in the past and in the present day - in fact, in the US, a large percentage are evil, fascist-socialist Democrats and Republicans.
However, I cannot agree that the general population is the same. Among the general populace, most adult human beings are innocent and pure except for minor vices which are mere personal pecadillos and not social problems.
It actually appears inevitable that one day the sheep will wake up, cast aside their ignorance and fear, and rise against the oppression of the wolves in Washington. I refuse to share your misanthropic view of humanity. |
Only it's not a misanthropic view. Some famous writer (his name escapes me at the moment) pointed out that in over 6000 years of recorded human history...there's only been about 300 or so years of peace.
Thousands of tonnes of food are wasted each year just to keep food prices stable, while millions of people go hungry.
Simple and effective cures are ignored in favour of the drug companies pushing expensive pills and syrups.
I could go on and on. Most adults are aware of such issues, they just don't care enough to protest such things. To be complicit in something is very nearly on the same level as doing it. |
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