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RufusW
Joined: 14 Jun 2008
Location: Busan
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 Posted: Thu Sep 10, 2009 8:36 am Post subject: |
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| geldedgoat wrote: |
| The only times relying on the will of the ignorant masses has worked out for the good of all is when they get something right by pure, dumb luck. I'm not sure this is a system you want to be supporting. |
Errrr.. wat? Okay, I won't support democracy. Instead I'll support business, they certainly have taken the hopes of the average man to heart. LOL
How do you think we got to where we are now? Business interests or the 'average Joe' standing up for what's right? Where do you think civil rights came from? Wal-Mart? |
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geldedgoat
Joined: 05 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Thu Sep 10, 2009 8:43 am Post subject: |
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| RufusW wrote: |
| Errrr.. wat? Okay, I won't support democracy. Instead I'll support business, they certainly have taken the hopes of the average man to heart. LOL |
You are espousing direct democracy, a form of government that America does not, and should not, have. |
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RufusW
Joined: 14 Jun 2008
Location: Busan
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| Posted: Thu Sep 10, 2009 8:45 am Post subject: |
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No, 'the will of the masses' is merely democracy. The masses want something? They'll get it.
Errr... why shouldn't America have direct democracy - it works well for Switzerland? You think the citizens can't make a responsible choice? |
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geldedgoat
Joined: 05 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Thu Sep 10, 2009 8:58 am Post subject: |
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| RufusW wrote: |
| No, 'the will of the masses' is merely direct democracy. The masses want something? They'll get it. |
That's true... and scary.
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| Errr... why shouldn't America have direct democracy - it works well for Switzerland? You think the citizens can't make a responsible choice? |
I think the majority of American citizens can't be trusted to make a responsible choice directly, and neither did our founding fathers.
Also, it's not appropriate to directly compare Switzerland with America without considering the multitude of differences between the cultures residing in each nation. Switzerland has a number of institutions in place that cultivate a greater sense of nationalism and personal responsibility in the electorate. America, by and large, is a free-for-all. |
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ontheway
Joined: 24 Aug 2005
Location: Somewhere under the rainbow...
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| Posted: Thu Sep 10, 2009 9:01 am Post subject: |
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Government run health care, whether a "public option" or "single payer" will ultimately cost far more than private insurance. This is always the case with government institutions.
There are 3 possible outcomes for a Public Option if it were to be passed:
1) Much higher cost for the insured.
2) Reduced coverage or some sort of rationing or denial of service.
3) Massive government subsidies from general tax revenues to mask the higher costs.
Of course, Obama lies about the plan.
The Public Option will be massively subsidized from the outset. As the program expands, the subsidies will have to increase. When that proves politically difficult, the cost to the insured will rise. When that meets protest, the coverage will be gradually reduced, rationed and services denied - all with secrecy and rationalizations when caught. When that proves embarrassing, the government will increase subsidies and tax the private insurers to pay for and cover up the higher cost of a government run plan.
Government run programs of all kinds always cost more and provide less service.
Studies have shown that when the government spends one dollar to help the poor, it costs $4 to handle the one dollar that gets to the poor.
When a private charity spends one dollar to help the poor, it costs an average of 8 cents to handle the dollar.
When a private business provides one dollar of service, the profit only costs 5 cents. |
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RufusW
Joined: 14 Jun 2008
Location: Busan
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| Posted: Thu Sep 10, 2009 9:06 am Post subject: |
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| geldedgoat wrote: |
| RufusW wrote: |
| No, 'the will of the masses' is merely direct democracy. The masses want something? They'll get it. |
That's true... and scary. |
Hmm...I think you may have added a word to my quote...seems a little dishonest.
| geldedgoat wrote: |
| I think the majority of American citizens can't be trusted to make a responsible choice directly, and neither did our founding fathers. |
HAHA... yea, the founding fathers thought citizens couldn't decide their own future. Ummm...no. The whole reason for the founding of the U.S.A. was for people's rights. America is meant to be the city on the hill, the one true society on earth. If you can't trust its own citizens who exactly are you gonna trust?
Democracy (yes, rule mostly by the majority) is exactly why America was consituted (literally). Escape from monarchy anyone?
Last edited by RufusW on Thu Sep 10, 2009 9:15 am; edited 1 time in total |
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RufusW
Joined: 14 Jun 2008
Location: Busan
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| Posted: Thu Sep 10, 2009 9:14 am Post subject: |
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| ontheway wrote: |
| Government run health care, whether a "public option" or "single payer" will ultimately cost far more than private insurance. |
Ummmm... most of Europe has 'single payer'... we pay 33% less than you guys on healthcare but get the same results.
Have you ever heard of private health insurance denying coverage? It's called rescission - a lot of people in America become bankrupt because of it.
| ontheway wrote: |
| The Public Option will be massively subsidized from the outset. |
So you didn't hear Obama saying it'd be revenue neutral?
| ontheway wrote: |
| Government run programs of all kinds always cost more and provide less service. |
I'm glad someone is standing up for a privatised police force and fire department - they'd surely save money. It may mean they ignore some crimes/fires, but at least they ain't wasting tax payer money.
Again, you misunderstand the public option. If people want they can choose private insurance. The government wont stop them selling their services. |
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ontheway
Joined: 24 Aug 2005
Location: Somewhere under the rainbow...
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| Posted: Thu Sep 10, 2009 9:19 am Post subject: |
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The US has numerous private fire departments, and the in between volunteer fire departments in a large portion of the country.
One third of US police are actually private at the present time.
Private police and fire service is much better. The use of private ambulance services has been rising.
Private police, fire and rescue services provide better service at a lower price. They have the advantage of the police NOT being above the law, so that the tendency for cops to murder innocent citizens rarely occurs with private policing. |
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RufusW
Joined: 14 Jun 2008
Location: Busan
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| Posted: Thu Sep 10, 2009 9:23 am Post subject: |
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| ontheway wrote: |
| The US has numerous private fire departments... One third of US police are actually private at the present time. |
C'mon, internet source at least. :)
Ontheway - how do you respond to the fact Universal Healthcare coverage in the UK costs 33% less but gets the same results? |
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ontheway
Joined: 24 Aug 2005
Location: Somewhere under the rainbow...
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| Posted: Thu Sep 10, 2009 9:29 am Post subject: |
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[quote="RufusW"]
| ontheway wrote: |
| The Public Option will be massively subsidized from the outset. |
So you didn't hear Obama saying it'd be revenue neutral?
quote]
Obama was and is lying.
It will take massive government subsidies in the billions of dollars to begin the "Public Option" before it insures its first victim. Obama lies about the subsidies by using the term "revenue neutral."
What he doesn't say is that the massive capital cost of starting the program will be provided by the government - no interest, no dividends to pay to the capital providers. Billions of dollars in subsidies.
What he doesn't say is that he plans to assert that billions of dollars in subsidies are revenue neutral bacause they will pretend that they have saved paying for the patients on a welfare basis.
So, if it costs $200 for treatment that is only paid by $100 in premiums, they will argue that the additional $100 subsidy is still revenue neutral because they would have paid for the whole $200 treatment on welfare, so they saved money. It's a lie, but it works for political purposes and fools the ignorant masses.
No matter what the cost, the socialists lie and call it revenue neutral. |
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ontheway
Joined: 24 Aug 2005
Location: Somewhere under the rainbow...
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| Posted: Thu Sep 10, 2009 9:31 am Post subject: |
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| RufusW wrote: |
| ontheway wrote: |
| The US has numerous private fire departments... One third of US police are actually private at the present time. |
C'mon, internet source at least. 
Ontheway - how do you respond to the fact Universal Healthcare coverage in the UK costs 33% less but gets the same results? |
They are hiding massive subsidies, providing lower quality service and denying treatments that are routinely paid for by private insurers in the US - rationing. |
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RufusW
Joined: 14 Jun 2008
Location: Busan
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| Posted: Thu Sep 10, 2009 9:32 am Post subject: |
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| No, seriously, gimme at least one source. |
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visitorq
Joined: 11 Jan 2008
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| Posted: Thu Sep 10, 2009 9:57 am Post subject: |
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| RufusW wrote: |
Boys, isn't the poice force socialist.... or the army... or the education system..... or interstate highways.... or HHS classifications?
Where do you draw the line? the U.S.A. is a society, the public elected an official who promised healthcare reform. |
Easy. I draw the line at the Constitution. As long as our individual liberties aren't infringed upon, I have no problem with a servant government putting our tax dollars to work.
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visitorq "the public is not the same as the state"
- in a functioning democracy this is exactly what the state is - a representation of the public will. |
So you support slavery then? Who do you think voted in Hitler? In the end, all the power goes to those with their on the levers in government. |
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visitorq
Joined: 11 Jan 2008
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| Posted: Thu Sep 10, 2009 10:08 am Post subject: |
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| RufusW wrote: |
| geldedgoat wrote: |
| The only times relying on the will of the ignorant masses has worked out for the good of all is when they get something right by pure, dumb luck. I'm not sure this is a system you want to be supporting. |
Errrr.. wat? Okay, I won't support democracy. Instead I'll support business, they certainly have taken the hopes of the average man to heart. LOL
How do you think we got to where we are now? Business interests or the 'average Joe' standing up for what's right? Where do you think civil rights came from? Wal-Mart? |
Man, you really are off base...
This pure, "major rules" type of democracy you're talking about never works. Seriously, that's how people like Hitler, Bush, and Obama get into power. In the end, the sheeple just swallow the lies and propaganda, succumb to the fear tactics, and get their liberties taken from them.
This is why we have things like the Constitution to guarantee our rights. When government corruption erodes these freedoms (seems inevitable looking at history), it's the public's responsibility to reassert them. Failing this, we all lose.
The current corporatist state we have now (Bush/Obama and the banksters indebting and basically raping us for all we're worth) has pretty much brought us to the brink. You put so much stock in the empty words Obama speaks about healthcare (as if he's actually going to be able solve it when our entire financial system is rotten to the core), and fail to realise that in the big picture he is presiding over the wholesale destruction of our economy, and selling us down the river so the banks and the Fed can keep their ponzi scheme running a bit longer, and buy time to finish setting up their police state (no other option). In fact, it's pretty well forgone at this point (we're just in the eye of the hurricane, aka the 'bailout bubble' which will soon burst). Time to wake the hell up. |
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visitorq
Joined: 11 Jan 2008
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| Posted: Thu Sep 10, 2009 10:12 am Post subject: |
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| RufusW wrote: |
| No, seriously, gimme at least one source. |
You first. You said you read the whole 1000+ pages right? You're the expert! |
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