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highdials5
Joined: 13 Oct 2008
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 Posted: Fri Sep 11, 2009 9:24 am Post subject: Setting me up to get fired? |
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Hi,
I've worked for a large chain hagwon for 9 months now. It's been ok for the mostpart although not without some ups and downs.
Unfortunately I have received two written warnings now (the first one was fair enough but the latest was ridiculous...blaming me and my coworker for their own failings).
Anyway, my contract states:
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| Both parties will give at least a written 45-day notice prior to the termination date of the contract. |
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| The Employer retains the right to terminate the contract immediately if: |
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| The Employee receives written warnings from the Employer on 3 occasions. |
Obviously I am getting worried now, being on two written warnings.
I've spent the last couple of hours researching old posts, but would like something clarifying from wiser posters than myself:
1. Am I still entitled to the minimum 30 days notice (or 30 days pay) as stated in the Labor Laws? This despite the clause in my contract that states they are able to fire me immediately if I get 3 written warnings?
I'm still confident that everything will be ok as it would cause major disruption to lose a foreign teacher in the middle of such an important semester, when the students are studying to get into foreign language high schools. However, I take nothing for granted in this country, and so I'd like to be aware of all the facts should things go wrong...
Thanks for reading.
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iggyb
Joined: 29 Oct 2003
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| Posted: Fri Sep 11, 2009 4:19 pm Post subject: |
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If this is a hakwon, then they could be having a money crunch and need to cut payroll or are thinking ahead to your 12-month severance pay. This was all standard stuff the last economic crisis.
-- Anyway - in general, nothing in a contract means squat if it does not mesh with the Korean Labor Standards Act (Law).
Go to the sticky thread on those laws here and find a copy for yourself and read it a couple of times. This is good advice for anyone in the ESL industry in Korea.
I can't give a specific, 100% fool-proof answer to your question, but my educated guess is --- the contact term you noted is null-and-void, because it runs counter to the KLSA.
As far as I know, 30-days notice or paying you off with 1 month's pay in advance is the only way you can get fired from a position like that of an E2 visa TESOLer.
Unless there is something else in the law I missed, it doesn't matter what the contract you signed says about warnings ----- they legally have to give you notice or pay up front....
Key word being "legally" --- they can do whatever the heck they feel like - and you have to fight them through the labor board to get the pay if that is the route they want to go... |
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lifeinkorea
Joined: 24 Jan 2009
Location: somewhere in China
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| Posted: Fri Sep 11, 2009 5:05 pm Post subject: |
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If there were money problems, you would think they would first not pay you on time. Has this happened?
If not, my guess is that parents complained about something minor and the hagwon is simply passing it along. |
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cruisemonkey
Joined: 04 Jul 2005
Location: Hopefully, the same place as my luggage.
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| Posted: Fri Sep 11, 2009 5:16 pm Post subject: |
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Iggy is right - any contract provision (article, clause etc.) that does not meet the minimum provided under law is null and void.
However, the Labor Relations Commission (commonly, the "Labor Board") can only make a (non-binding) recommendation. Ultimately, it's up to the court to make an enforceable decision.
Hogwan owners know this. They gamble the foreigner will 'give up' - i.e. is ignorant, can't afford it, or can't be bothered to appoint a proxy - and have left K-land well before the (approx.) year and a half it takes to sue. Even then (if the decision is in your favor)... you must collect. K-police are not exactly enthusiastic when enforcing a judgment in favor of a foreigner against a K-national (especially if he's older and knows the local gangsters). 
It's all about 'connections'...  |
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iggyb
Joined: 29 Oct 2003
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| Posted: Fri Sep 11, 2009 6:07 pm Post subject: |
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All true, but at least back in the day, a single call from the labor board could turn the money spicket back on at a school. Or a call from a lawyer.
I don't know how common it was compared to the die-hard, feet draggers, but I know it wasn't just an isolated thing, at least from what it seemed reading people talking about it back then...
....and keep in mind that - especially in the hakwon industry - a hakwon's reputation is important in the local area where competition is most usually fierce. NETs who know how to tickle those wires in terms of how a school is screwing over the staff can also see a boss backdown and honor contracts and regulations just to get rid of a threatening NET...
There are more tools and leverage available to TESOLers than new people in the industry generally know.... |
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cruisemonkey
Joined: 04 Jul 2005
Location: Hopefully, the same place as my luggage.
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| Posted: Fri Sep 11, 2009 6:25 pm Post subject: |
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| iggyb wrote: |
| There are more tools and leverage available to TESOLers than new people in the industry generally know.... |
LOL... I would never advocate violence. It's always best to 'negotiate' - having a Korean friend start phoning all the parents usually works well. However, if/when that fails, my 'friend', Mr. Kim and the two, knuckle-dragging troglodites are going to escort you to the bank machine. Comprende? |
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sketcha
Joined: 05 Sep 2007
Location: Seoul, South Korea
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| Posted: Sat Sep 12, 2009 7:42 am Post subject: ... |
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a different kind of advise ~ dont worry too much
best is not to worry at all, just focus on doing your job to the best of your ability
from a personal experience -
I realized when I worried about getting fired my performance and ability to teach (and keep cool) decreased
well, wish you the best, hope things work out |
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Demophobe
Joined: 17 May 2004
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| Posted: Sat Sep 12, 2009 3:08 pm Post subject: |
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| iggyb wrote: |
| If this is a hakwon, then they could be having a money crunch and need to cut payroll or are thinking ahead to your 12-month severance pay. This was all standard stuff the last economic crisis. |
That, or the maybe OP deserved both letters; this happens daily in Korean Hagwons, crisis or not.
I think fired means you forfeit everything your contract states from that moment on. Makes sense, given the stories of 11th hour firings by employers to save paying severance that have floated around here before. |
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iggyb
Joined: 29 Oct 2003
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| Posted: Sat Sep 12, 2009 3:15 pm Post subject: |
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| I think fired means you forfeit everything your contract states from that moment on. |
It can't cancel out the 30 days notice or pay upfront if being fired immediately.
It also is not a legal way to avoid 12th month severance pay. They can try it, but they won't get away with it if the worker can take the case through the courts. I've seen Korean bosses try to do that to Korean instructors when it came time to paying them severance for multi-years of work. Or trying to cut them back to "part-time" to avoid it. But being threatened with the Labor Board or suing helped. (I'm sure those Koreans by-and-large in the hakwon industry - as it is - likely deserved such treatment too. It has been my general experience that hakwon owners and directors are generally very professional and upright in how they run things and simply demand workers do their jobs as they (the directors and owners) simply try to provide the best environment in which the workers can do their jobs. Yes. That is the ticket...That's why when I read something like this, I naturally assume until proven otherwise that the person deserved it and the hakwon director is most likely in the right.....) |
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Demophobe
Joined: 17 May 2004
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| Posted: Sat Sep 12, 2009 3:36 pm Post subject: |
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| iggyb wrote: |
| (I'm sure those Koreans by-and-large in the hakwon industry - as it is - likely deserved such treatment too. It has been my general experience that hakwon owners and directors are generally very professional and upright in how they run things and simply demand workers do their jobs as they (the directors and owners) simply try to provide the best environment in which the workers can do their jobs. Yes. That is the ticket...That's why when I read something like this, I naturally assume until proven otherwise that the person deserved it and the hakwon director is most likely in the right.....) |
I am defending no group, but it is best to assume nothing, isn't it? Foreigners in Korea have an equally bad reputation iggy. Why take a side at all? Your initial sentence in your first reply was needless, given what the OP asked, yet was pointing a finger as to why the letters had been given. Why is it not assumed that perhaps the OP deserved them?
The default position of people here is that we (the foreigners) are right. I guess we feel we owe that to one another or something? |
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iggyb
Joined: 29 Oct 2003
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| Posted: Sat Sep 12, 2009 3:46 pm Post subject: |
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| I am defending no group, but it is best to assume nothing, isn't it? Foreigners in Korea have an equally bad reputation iggy. |
Fair enough. As I noted, in a smartassed manner, though, my general experience, even back when a fair number of places in the ESL industry in Korea had to start faking degrees and accepting illegals to fit staffing needs due to Korea's falling currency and ESL industry reputation, the generally inexperienced, fresh college grades I worked with --- were not the problem in effective language instruction or functioning of the schools I worked in. Whatever they did in their free time, continuing to live the college student life, in general, in the work place, they wanted to do their jobs. --- It was the typical way in which institutes were managed that made effective teaching difficult to impossible.
Add to that the sheer volume of worker complaints during the last major ecomomic crisis -- and in general in the industry year to year.
And, no....my first sentence was not purposeless or useless. It specifically fits the time we are likely to see now.
And being influenced by what I've seen in the industry is natural.
Trying to snap people back into neutrality doesn't really make sense.
Especially when the OP admitted up front his agreed the first rebuke was justified.
I also was not taking sides in that first sentence -- I was pointing out a factor in the industry we should all keep in mind in the coming months....Especially people thinking about coming over. We need to pay attention to the market conditions. |
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oldfatfarang
Joined: 19 May 2005
Location: On the road to somewhere.
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| Posted: Sat Sep 12, 2009 4:20 pm Post subject: |
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OP. You sound like you're being set up for an 11 month firing. A common enough situation in Korean hagwons. However, you can be pro-active in getting your severance/bonus (after completing 12 contract months).
First, don't give them any reason to fire you (common sense).
Second, another poster gave me some excellent advice a few years ago when I realised my hagwon was going to screw me out of bonus/flights etc.
1) Make a record of all the school's students. Write down their names, their mothers' names and telephone numbers - and if the mother speaks English.
2) Photo copy these sheets and
3) leave a copy on your desk (where the director will find them).
When you get the inevitable: "Why you write this?" tell the director: "I've really enjoyed teaching here, and before I leave Korea, I'm going to ring all the mothers and thank them, and discuss their kids' education." Smile when you say this. 
Any director knows what you're implying (there is always something shady about their operations that they don't want the mothers to know).
This worked for me (got my severence and 75% of my flight).
Good luck. |
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iggyb
Joined: 29 Oct 2003
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| Posted: Sat Sep 12, 2009 4:36 pm Post subject: |
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| Second, another poster gave me some excellent advice a few years ago when I realised my hagwon was going to screw me out of bonus/flights etc. |
That's pretty good. I was a little antsy reading it about getting all the names and numbers of students, but the way it is broached with the boss seems reasonable:
You aren't bad mouthing the school by simply getting contact info. You also aren't bad mouthing the school in any other way at that point. If your boss is respectable, this approach becomes nothing - You finish the job and get your contract items honored and move on. -- There really isn't anything the boss can say legitimately since you are not harming his business. He could rightly worry that even if he is good you might bad mouth him later over trivial things, but that is the same kind of worry you have about getting screwed at the end when you can't do much about it...
If he is cheat, however, he'd rightly worry you will fight back when he plans to pull the trigger, and it might change his mind.
--- I do say ---- I would not recommend collecting names and contact info like that for anybody ---- except for those who have already had good reason to distrust their boss.
You don't want to make a good or adequate situation explode by trying this angle.
You could, however, try this angle if you have already been cheated and highly expect it is going to happen again in a big way at the end of your contract... |
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Demophobe
Joined: 17 May 2004
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| Posted: Sat Sep 12, 2009 7:34 pm Post subject: |
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| oldfatfarang wrote: |
Second, another poster gave me some excellent advice a few years ago when I realised my hagwon was going to screw me out of bonus/flights etc.
1) Make a record of all the school's students. Write down their names, their mothers' names and telephone numbers - and if the mother speaks English.
2) Photo copy these sheets and
3) leave a copy on your desk (where the director will find them).
When you get the inevitable: "Why you write this?" tell the director: "I've really enjoyed teaching here, and before I leave Korea, I'm going to ring all the mothers and thank them, and discuss their kids' education." Smile when you say this. |
Great strategy! |
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highdials5
Joined: 13 Oct 2008
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| Posted: Sun Sep 13, 2009 5:37 am Post subject: |
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Thanks for all the replies...much appreciated.
I don't think money is an issue with my hagwon as it is one of the big chains.
Yes the first warning was fair enough, but like I said the second issue wasn't our fault.
In the summer semester, we were given a textbook littered with spelling/grammatical errors and the content was also poor. Our students are very smart, and have a good chance of getting into foreign language high schools this December. They could spot the mistakes and it was embarrassing for all concerned. We complained and in the end it was agreed that we could make our own material for class, at extra expense in terms of time and effort. This was fine because we were able to create some excellent lessons which were both fun and educational.
Anyway, last week it seems a student's parent complained because we hadn't used the textbook that she'd paid for. She pulled her kid out of the academy as a result. Consequently we had a meeting last thing on Friday and were issued the warnings to much bemusement and annoyance...they are making us scapegoats for their poor organisation and communication skills.
The reason I'm still reasonably confident I won't get fired is because it would cause a lot of disruption all round if I went in the middle of the 3rd grader's final semester. They would also have to find another teacher who could teach TOEFL, as that is what I do with the 1st and 2nd graders. Throw in the fact that I have a good relationship with all the kids, and you can see why I'm still in a decent position.
However, I'm not oblivious to the fact that this is Korea and you can never be complacent, hence why I'm researching and trying to find out information, just in case something goes wrong... |
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