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Demophobe
Joined: 17 May 2004
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 Posted: Fri Sep 11, 2009 4:26 am Post subject: |
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| crossmr wrote: |
| and you can try to justify it all you want, but even being a little heavier, a laptop is far more portable than a desktop. |
Sorry. Read my last sentence. Think Micro ATX or small form factor PC. A 17" monitor slides in a backpack with it easily. With a full size keyboard and mouse. Been there. A laptop killer system. You want drooling at a lan party?
| crossmr wrote: |
For example the cheapest 280 GTX I found on danawa is
490,000W x2
QX9650 (its a little faster than the 9300, but its the lowest one that has a 12 MB L2 cache like the 9300 has) is 1,330,000W
8 GB ram (200,000 for 2 4 GB sticks)
500 GB HD, 70,000
So for a similar desktop, we're into:
2.6 million won, and we haven't included a monitor, an optical drive, power supply, motherboard, keyboard, case, and other bits and pieces. |
Umm.....a 9550 has 12MB of cache for 268,000. Now we are at 1.5 and some change.
| crossmr wrote: |
| Getting a motherboard that has SLI, support for 8 GB of ram, a legal OS (gotta include it, the laptop comes with one) with everything else you're looking at at least another 400,000 before you even talk about the monitor. Most people want a big monitor here it seems, so probably another 300,000 minimum for that. All told around 3.3 million for a desktop that is slightly (the processor is 3.0ghz instead of 2.53) above the notebook. |
2.3 million, not 3.3...but of course, to make your point, you stray from apples to apples comparisons...that ain't right.
A 17" LCD is cheap like borscht (yeah, let's talk high-res 17"...hehe...) and the upgrade version of Windows 7 is not expensive.
The rest of your points are moot.
For me, a 17" monitor sucks. Man...gaming on a laptop sucks. Maybe a flash game, but certainly not a real game. No upgrades suck. The thing is a brick in a year. No DX11 for you. Battery life of what...an hour? Maybe 2 or 3 for 6 months, then it's cooked Nah. Gotta be "portable" near a socket? Oh, and by the way...socket 775 is dying fast. You laptop is already old with no hope of catching up.
A micro ATX mainboard (SLI/Crossfire ready: the eVGA X58 SLI LE Micro is nice; i7 ready, SLI equipped) based system with a 17" monitor is totally portable. Check some of these Micro ATX offerings out.
I think you need to step back and ask yourself what "desktop" means; you are hung up on some narrow ideas. |
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crossmr
Joined: 22 Nov 2008
Location: Hwayangdong, Seoul
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| Posted: Fri Sep 11, 2009 5:21 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| Think Micro ATX or small form factor PC. A 17" monitor slides in a backpack with it easily. With a full size keyboard and mouse. Been there. A laptop killer system. You want drooling at a lan party? |
Low rise cards, especially video cards are rarer and often more expensive
Do you have a price on a low-rise 280 GTX in korea? You haven't provided any prices in Korea except the CPU, which wasn't a direct comparison. Picking the first motherboard off the link you gave, danawa has it, 270,000W. What's a small form factor power supply that has enough juice for two full size 280 GTXs going to run you?
| Quote: |
| Umm.....a 9550 has 12MB of cache for 268,000. Now we are at 1.5 and some change. |
And it isn't an extreme chip, the laptop one is an extreme.
Since you want to be so particular about comparing equals. Oh and since you want to be equal, I had mentioned the 256 MB SSD drive originally, on danawa thats another 900,000W for the desktop
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| 2.3 million, not 3.3...but of course, to make your point, you stray from apples to apples comparisons...that ain't right. |
Why you just did it?
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| For me, a 17" monitor sucks. Man...gaming on a laptop sucks. Maybe a flash game, but certainly not a real game. No upgrades suck. The thing is a brick in a year. No DX11 for you. Battery life of what...a hour? Maybe 2 or 3 for 6 months, then it's cooked Nah. Gotta be "portable" near a socket? Oh, and by the way...socket 775 is dying fast. You laptop is already old with no hope of catching up. |
You have the option of adding a monitor if you want. Can you take the desktop around without also dragging the monitor? You can upgrade within the family. You can also add ram and new hard drives. My laptop is 3 years old and not a brick.. hmm..very interesting. Any other hyperbole? Battery life.. its more than the desktop right? How long could you use it if the power went out?
Oh and the best low profile cards that newegg (not even getting into korea) has at this point is a radeon 4350 or geforce 9800. So you might be able to go micro ATX, but you're going to have to go full height. 2 of those cards are big and hot. That should be good on your back with a monitor too.
You want to lug that around be my guest. |
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Demophobe
Joined: 17 May 2004
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| Posted: Fri Sep 11, 2009 5:39 am Post subject: |
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Extreme chip in a laptop. Suckers born every minute.
Now...going to Dell and putting together the system you speak of...nothing more or less, no add-ons, monitors, peripherals...nothing......
$5,678 USD.
SYSTEM COLOR Lunar Silver � Anodized Aluminum
PROCESSOR Intel� Core�2 Extreme Quad QX9300 2.53GHz (12MB Cache, 1066MHz FSB)
OPERATING SYSTEM Windows Vista Ultimate (64 bit) + Windows 7 Ultimate Upgrade Coupon
VIDEO CARD Dual NVIDIA� GeForce� GTX 280M, 2GB � SLI� Enabled
LCD PANEL 17-inch WideUXGA 1920x1200 (1200p)
MEMORY 8GB Dual Channel DDR3 at 1333MHz
HARD DRIVE 256GB Solid State Drive
INTERNAL OPTICAL DRIVE Slot-Load Dual Layer Blu-ray Burner (BD-R/RE, DVD�RW, CD-RW)
ADDITIONAL BATTERY Additional 9-Cell Lithium-Ion Battery for Alienware M17x Laptop
A $5,678 desktop will crush it, and actually be fun.
Look into the Micro ATX cases. Low-risers need not apply.
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| my m1710 with a geforce 7950 GTX in it with me, its served me quite well. I can even play GTA IV on it just fine.. |
This speaks volumes. GTA4 on a laptop 7950 is "just fine".
Enjoy.
Last edited by Demophobe on Fri Sep 11, 2009 6:06 am; edited 1 time in total |
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crossmr
Joined: 22 Nov 2008
Location: Hwayangdong, Seoul
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| Posted: Fri Sep 11, 2009 6:04 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| Extreme chip in a laptop. Suckers born every minute. |
You can get a non-extreme and drop the price, I was simply pointing out what was available at the upper end in a laptop.
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| Look into the Micro ATX cases. Low-risers need not apply. |
I did look into them. As I said you need a full height case, which case + monitor makes it much larger than a laptop. That is going to be one beasty backpack that you'll be carrying that around in. Did you factor in the cost of a sherpa?
We're still talking in Korea, not in the US or another country.
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| Anyhow, enjoy your brick. |
Funny, again, still working fine. Don't have much to say so you're going to repeat the same hyperbole over and over? strong move.
There is new stuff released monthly. So unless you're going to be buying stuff monthly to make sure you've always got the latest and greatest you'll be out of date, just as fast. In fact if you've been using your machine more than a month its just as much of a brick. So you can keep pouring money into your desktop to get whatever it is your ego obviously needs out of that, and I'll be taking my laptop wherever I need it to go with the smallest of efforts.
if you absolutely need to be that attached to the bleeding edge, then you need a desktop. Some people can be gamers without the need to replace their video cards every 3 months, or their processors every 4 months. |
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Demophobe
Joined: 17 May 2004
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| Posted: Fri Sep 11, 2009 6:08 am Post subject: |
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Perhaps you didn't see this...
$5,678 USD.
Absolutely stupid.
Like I said...suckers every minute.
My desktop is no screamer. It's solid, but not like CLs, so cut it with the digs. It just doesn't matter to me. I do have a nice 24" monitor...
However, my current midrange system will crush your laptop, and I assure you, and it could be built for $1500.
Your laptop is a brick. Sorry, but that is the truth. Try selling it and see what its worth. |
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cubanlord
Joined: 08 Jul 2005
Location: In Japan!
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| Posted: Fri Sep 11, 2009 6:25 am Post subject: |
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| crossmr wrote: |
| [In fact if you've been using your machine more than a month its just as much of a brick |
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I have had my machine since February. That's almost 7 months. I guess I have a brick for a pc?
| Quote: |
Corsair Core i7 Dominator 6GB PC15000 DDR3 RAM - Tri Channel, 1866MHz (3 x 2048MB), DHX
Intel i7 920
Newest intel motherboard
Geforce 280GTX |
Please, I'll mop the floor with anything.
| Quote: |
| ...and I'll be taking my laptop wherever I need it to go with the smallest of efforts. |
I bought a laptop too for basic web surfing and word processing apps. $499.
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| Some people can be gamers without the need to replace their video cards every 3 months, or their processors every 4 months. |
Sure, if you buy the right caca. With what I have, in my desktop, I won't need anything until Feb. 2011. My baby will run anything at max. settings into the ground on my 22 inch monitor! |
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Demophobe
Joined: 17 May 2004
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| Posted: Fri Sep 11, 2009 6:29 am Post subject: |
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The bottom line is this:
Laptops may be more movable (dimensions only, not weight), but hardly portable, in the real sense of the word. The battery life just isn't long enough to make them truly portable.
Performance of a desktop cannot be beat. Desktops can be tweaked, drivers changed and the system can be overclocked with ease and without any real danger, unlike a laptop. Laptops will always be lesser machines in terms of pure performance.
Now, power for money (bang for buck) is a no-brainer. Laptops flat-out lose.
If we want to talk about a gaming experience, while arguably subjective, there is no way a 17" screen can compete with a big tv/monitor. The keyboard feels cramped, your hands are not in a sustainably comfortable position, and using the touchpad is idiotic.
EDIT: Before I closed the page at Dell, I saw this at the bottom....
ALSO INCLUDED WITH YOUR SYSTEM!
BLUETOOTH Internal Wireless Bluetooth� 2.1 with EDR
WIRELESS CARDS Internal 300Mbps Dual-Band a/g/n Wireless with MIMO Technology
Adobe Software Adobe� Acrobat� Reader 9.0
MOUSE POINTERS Mouse Pointers, Standard
WINDOWS STYLE Windows Style, Default
AUTOMATIC UPDATES Automatic Updates ON
POWER PLAN Power Plan, High Performance
TIME ZONE (GMT - 6.00) Central Time (US & Canada)
RSS FEEDS Alienware RSS Feed
I have always wanted a time zone of my own...
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kprrok
Joined: 06 Apr 2004
Location: KC
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| Posted: Fri Sep 11, 2009 6:40 am Post subject: |
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Let's just make this as easy as possible...
Here are the specs from the Alienware from Dell.co.kr
CPU: Intel QX9300 (2.53/12MB/1066)
Monitor: 17" 1440x900 (900p)
RAM: 8GB Dual Channel 1066 DDR3
HDD: 256GB SSD
VGA: 280M x 2 in SLI
ODD: DVD burner
OS: Vista Ultimate English 64-bit with 7 upgrade
Weight: STARTING at 5.3kg
PRICE: a cool 9,515,000 KRW (I hope shipping is free for this beast)
A desktop via danawa:
CPU: Q9550 (can't find the QX) - 270,000
M/B: MSI x58Micro - 270,000 (probably better than any Dell board)
RAM: OCZ 1066 DDR3 8 GB - 250,000
HDD: SuperTalen 256GB SSD - 760,000
VGA: XFX 280 - 490,000 x 2 = 980,000
ODD: Samsung/whatever DVD burner - 30,000
Case: Don't know
PSU: Don't know
Input: Logitech G7/G15 - 80,000 + 127,000 = 207,000 (knocks the stuffing out of a laptop mouse/keyboard combo)
OS: Vista Ultima 64 English - 229,000
Monitor: 17" (if you can find one) - 150,000
Total Price: 3,010,000
Add in the QX which is probably available but I'm just not seeing it (let's just say 1m more), gives you a total of about 4 million won.
That leaves you nearly 5.5 million won to buy a case and power supply along with a nice rolling suitcase to put it in instead of your backpack. I think that's not too difficult. |
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seonsengnimble
Joined: 02 Jun 2009
Location: taking a ride on the magic English bus
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| Posted: Fri Sep 11, 2009 7:10 am Post subject: |
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I can see where crossmr is coming from, but I think it's pretty ridiculous for most people. If gaming+portability is your top priority, then I guess shell out a huge chunk of cash for a top of the line laptop.
I was using laptops for quite a while and then gave up on them. My first two ran fine. The first one wasn't any good for gaming, but it had a great battery life and had some nice features. I also never had any problems with it. This was stolen. My second one worked even better, but it didn't have a dedicated card, and after a while, I sold it and bought a midrange laptop with a dedicated card. It worked fairly well at first, but it ended up having tons of problems and it couldn't play later games very well. I got it repaired and sold it. I bought another laptop with the best video card and processor I could find in Yongsan. It ran games quite well, but the hard drives were terrible(Only Korean vista and one bootleg version of Swedish xp could recognize them). So was the cooling system and the optical drive. I finally said screw it and bought a desktop for 500,000won. It blows all of my previous computers out of the water. It's not a hard core gaming rig, but it gets the job done.
The two things I don't understand about buying a gaming laptop are upgrade=ability and repair. If a new game comes out that my current graphics card can't handle, I can buy a new one and install it, whereas in one or two years with a laptop, you have to go and buy another really expensive laptop. 2-300,000won vs 3-5Mwon. If a part craps out, I can pop it out and replace it. If a laptop part craps out, you have to take it to the service center and hope your warranty is still good and that they actually fix the problem.
In a couple of months when I have a few hundred thousand that I don't mind parting with, I'll buy a netbook. Keep the desktop at home and travel around with something that weighs around 3lbs. If I move to a different apartment, my tower is the least of my worries. Yes it's bulkier than a laptop, but so are my suitcases, monitor(which I used with a laptop anyways because I like to watch movies on a large screen), furniture, dishes etc...
I understand your point about lan parties, but it seems like an incredibly costly, short term solution to a relatively minor inconvenience. Wouldn't it be cheaper and more convenient to get a desktop and take a taxi when you go to a lan party?
note: these estimates are based on us prices, not korean. sorry, but I'm a bit lazy and hate navigating sites like gmarket
Let's say you go to a lan party once a week. A high end desktop and monitor will run you around $1500 give or take depending on how high end you want to go. A high end laptop which is of similar quality or less will cost you about $4-6,000, so let's take the average of $5,000. Your starting cost difference is $3500. To get to a lan party and back, within the greater Seoul area will cost about 2,000 won or $1.60 using public transportation. Inside Seoul, the max will be 20,000won($16) and outside of seoul will be a max of 50,000won($40). So let's say we average these and we get about $28. For the difference in costs per week we get $28-$1.60=$26.40/week. If you go to a lan party in the Seoul area every week, the difference for a year will be $1373.
$3500>$1373.
Now this is for one year. Now think about the longer term cost differences of upgrading specific parts vs buying a new laptop every one to two years, and the difference gets even bigger. |
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seonsengnimble
Joined: 02 Jun 2009
Location: taking a ride on the magic English bus
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| Posted: Fri Sep 11, 2009 7:20 am Post subject: |
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| Demophobe wrote: |
The keyboard feels cramped, your hands are not in a sustainably comfortable position, and using the touchpad is idiotic.
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I agree with everything you said except for this. Yes touchpads are idiotic, but who in their right mind uses a touch pad instead of a mouse with a notebook outside of a coffee shop?
Another reason why I hate laptops: touchpads. Maybe more of the high end ones have the option to turn these little bastards off, but I haven't had much luck. There's nothing more annoying then typing away and then resting your thumb on the touch pad only to have it select a random portion of text and write over it. |
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crossmr
Joined: 22 Nov 2008
Location: Hwayangdong, Seoul
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| Posted: Fri Sep 11, 2009 4:05 pm Post subject: |
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You're right, the laptop actually smokes and hisses if I try to change the drivers on it. Good catch.
We're in Korea, perhaps you haven't looked out the window.
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| I do have a nice 24" monitor. |
Wow. lucky, that is actually illegal with a laptop here. If you buy a monitor and try to plug it into the laptop they actually kick down the door and throw you in jail.
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| Your laptop is a brick. Sorry, but that is the truth. Try selling it and see what its worth. |
I think you don't know what a brick is, but as I've already stated, I can play GTA IV with acceptable settings on an acceptable resolution. For a 3 year old laptop that is pretty good, considering how many people have whined about the performance of that game. Besides, I have no desire to sell my laptop right now. Contrary to your assertions, its working just great.
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| I have had my machine since February. That's almost 7 months. I guess I have a brick for a pc? |
Ask demophobe, he's the brick expert around here. Anything which isn't the latest and greatest to him is a brick.
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| I bought a laptop too for basic web surfing and word processing apps. $499. |
That's fine, but now you have 2 machines to take care of, and if you move to another country, go home on vacation for a few weeks, etc. you aren't taking your main machine with you.
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| Laptops may be more movable (dimensions only, not weight), but hardly portable, in the real sense of the word. The battery life just isn't long enough to make them truly portable. |
You're finally getting it. You can find power in a lot of places. You'll get less strange looks opening a 17" laptop than pulling a micro ATX desktop out o your backpack.
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Performance of a desktop cannot be beat |
more great insight, never claimed otherwise. I was simply contradicting the claim that laptops could never be used as gaming machines. If you're not addicted to always running every single game on max settings at extreme resolutions (which a lot of people aren't) buying a mid to high range gaming laptop can last someone several years.
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| If a new game comes out that my current graphics card can't handle |
Think about what you're getting now. SLI 280m GTXs, how soon do you think it is going to be before a game comes along that those just absolutely can't even run at all?
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| If a laptop part craps out, you have to take it to the service center and hope your warranty is still good and that they actually fix the problem. |
The memory on my vid card went a month or so ago. you can read through the tech forum to find the post. I called the dell international warranty, they got the part in from Singapore (since my model isn't sold in Korea) the guy came to my house just a couple days later, replaced the vid card and motherboard in about 30 minutes. You're spending that much money, get a good warranty.
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| Maybe more of the high end ones have the option to turn these little bastards off, but I haven't had much luck. There's nothing more annoying then typing away and then resting your thumb on the touch pad only to have it select a random portion of text and write over it. |
There is usually an option in the synaptics sotware that comes with most touchpads that can either outright disable it, or disable it when a mouse is plugged in. |
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cubanlord
Joined: 08 Jul 2005
Location: In Japan!
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| Posted: Fri Sep 11, 2009 5:13 pm Post subject: |
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| crossmr wrote: |
You're right, the laptop actually smokes and hisses if I try to change the drivers on it. Good catch.
We're in Korea, perhaps you haven't looked out the window.
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| I do have a nice 24" monitor. |
Wow. lucky, that is actually illegal with a laptop here. If you buy a monitor and try to plug it into the laptop they actually kick down the door and throw you in jail.
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| Your laptop is a brick. Sorry, but that is the truth. Try selling it and see what its worth. |
I think you don't know what a brick is, but as I've already stated, I can play GTA IV with acceptable settings on an acceptable resolution. For a 3 year old laptop that is pretty good, considering how many people have whined about the performance of that game. Besides, I have no desire to sell my laptop right now. Contrary to your assertions, its working just great.
| Quote: |
| I have had my machine since February. That's almost 7 months. I guess I have a brick for a pc? |
Ask demophobe, he's the brick expert around here. Anything which isn't the latest and greatest to him is a brick.
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| I bought a laptop too for basic web surfing and word processing apps. $499. |
That's fine, but now you have 2 machines to take care of, and if you move to another country, go home on vacation for a few weeks, etc. you aren't taking your main machine with you.
| Quote: |
| Laptops may be more movable (dimensions only, not weight), but hardly portable, in the real sense of the word. The battery life just isn't long enough to make them truly portable. |
You're finally getting it. You can find power in a lot of places. You'll get less strange looks opening a 17" laptop than pulling a micro ATX desktop out o your backpack.
| Quote: |
Performance of a desktop cannot be beat |
more great insight, never claimed otherwise. I was simply contradicting the claim that laptops could never be used as gaming machines. If you're not addicted to always running every single game on max settings at extreme resolutions (which a lot of people aren't) buying a mid to high range gaming laptop can last someone several years.
| Quote: |
| If a new game comes out that my current graphics card can't handle |
Think about what you're getting now. SLI 280m GTXs, how soon do you think it is going to be before a game comes along that those just absolutely can't even run at all?
| Quote: |
| If a laptop part craps out, you have to take it to the service center and hope your warranty is still good and that they actually fix the problem. |
The memory on my vid card went a month or so ago. you can read through the tech forum to find the post. I called the dell international warranty, they got the part in from Singapore (since my model isn't sold in Korea) the guy came to my house just a couple days later, replaced the vid card and motherboard in about 30 minutes. You're spending that much money, get a good warranty.
| Quote: |
| Maybe more of the high end ones have the option to turn these little bastards off, but I haven't had much luck. There's nothing more annoying then typing away and then resting your thumb on the touch pad only to have it select a random portion of text and write over it. |
There is usually an option in the synaptics sotware that comes with most touchpads that can either outright disable it, or disable it when a mouse is plugged in. |
CrossMr, now you're just being a turd. Plain and simple. Convert the USD price using XE and you get:
Live rates at 2009.09.12 01:09:54 UTC
5,678.00 USD = 6,933,405.66 KRW
United States Dollars South Korea Won
1 USD = 1,221.10 KRW 1 KRW = 0.000818934 USD
Trade Currencies. Click here!!
That's a lot of coin for a PC, even for me.
Actually, I have 4 PCs in my house right now. 3 desktops and 1 laptop. In all honesty, I do not plan on taking my desktops home. I plan on selling them here in KOrea before I go. I will take the laptop with me because it is easy to carry. Then, perhaps when I get home, I will build another. It's a hobby of mine and I enjoy doing it.
Seriously man, we hear what you are saying, but, the topic is gaming. And pound for pound, laptops just aren't up to snuff in terms of a price/value (what you get) ratio. No matter how hard you try to disprove it. |
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crossmr
Joined: 22 Nov 2008
Location: Hwayangdong, Seoul
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| Posted: Fri Sep 11, 2009 5:40 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| Seriously man, we hear what you are saying, but, the topic is gaming. And pound for pound, laptops just aren't up to snuff in terms of a price/value (what you get) ratio. No matter how hard you try to disprove it. |
I never said it was, I said that laptops were more portable than desktops and if someone is a transient worker, it might be to their benefit to purchase one as it would be easier to take to another country rather than build a new one. However some people have tried to twist that into claiming I've said that laptops are identical in gaming to desktops. I said laptops were a trade off between cost and portability, what I did say was that laptops were viable because the days of integrated intel graphics were long gone and you could buy serious hardware for the laptops.
That got turned into a pissing match by some people who apparently have some religious objection to someone enjoying games on a laptop. |
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hanguker
Joined: 16 Mar 2005
Location: Korea
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| Posted: Fri Sep 11, 2009 6:34 pm Post subject: |
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I've got a 400-500K Won PC (600K Won 2 years ago) and I can play FEAR II at 50 FPS/1680x1050/full settings.
Why do you guys waste SO much money on super-high end first adopter stuff?
You can even play Crisis at 60 FPS on a 700-800K Won PC you could buy today. |
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cubanlord
Joined: 08 Jul 2005
Location: In Japan!
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| Posted: Fri Sep 11, 2009 7:00 pm Post subject: |
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| crossmr wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Seriously man, we hear what you are saying, but, the topic is gaming. And pound for pound, laptops just aren't up to snuff in terms of a price/value (what you get) ratio. No matter how hard you try to disprove it. |
I never said it was, I said that laptops were more portable than desktops and if someone is a transient worker, it might be to their benefit to purchase one as it would be easier to take to another country rather than build a new one. However some people have tried to twist that into claiming I've said that laptops are identical in gaming to desktops. I said laptops were a trade off between cost and portability, what I did say was that laptops were viable because the days of integrated intel graphics were long gone and you could buy serious hardware for the laptops.
That got turned into a pissing match by some people who apparently have some religious objection to someone enjoying games on a laptop. |
Yeah, but that's obvious. Of course a laptop is more portable than a desktop i.e. easier to move around. But, with all do respect, this thread isn't about that. It's about gaming. So why even bring up the portability of a laptop when we are talking about gaming hardware. |
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