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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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 Posted: Sun Sep 20, 2009 1:11 am Post subject: |
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| Looks like Shane Mosley took a page from Kanye West's book...or Vince McMahon's. |
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Captain Corea
Joined: 28 Feb 2005
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Sun Sep 20, 2009 4:50 pm Post subject: |
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| ManintheMiddle wrote: |
| Gee, thanks for reminding us all of the obvious. I didn't condemn the Black community as a whole, nor even all blacks who live in the inner city. Stop being defensive, just because you're Black. |
So if this is so obvious, why the need to call out one race on it? Why create a whole thread about Black Youth, yet not bother to mention similar problems in their peers? |
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Reggie
Joined: 21 Sep 2009
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| Posted: Wed Sep 23, 2009 6:50 pm Post subject: |
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But is it "black culture" or just blacks showing that they're a part of American culture? Antics like the ones displayed by Williams, West, and Jordan are nothing new and have been quite common by all of us regardless of color.
Here's a list of clips that shows exactly what I'm talking about. Since the OP's avatar is of Bill O'Reilly, we might as well lead off with him: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2tJjNVVwRCY
Then, of course, there's Bobby Knight: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Onfzet1xxs and his most famous moment: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NvRO2GE4x4M&feature=related
And a coach that was somehow crazier than Knight in a hilarious meltdown: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kf9E1zhnFec
George Brett: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=roMbZojHCMY
John McEnroe in a foul mouthed, raquet abusive tirade: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EmJi_oc7t10 McEnroe in one of his more subdued tantrums: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ekQ_Ja02gTY McEnroe getting a little testy: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=THB8N625BvI&feature=related Geriatric McEnroe ... still throwing tantrums: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rkq6ZsYqd5o&feature=related
NASCAR fights. You can take the NASCAR driver out of the ghetto, but can't take the ghetto out of the NASCAR driver? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BLf-ny2I-SY More NASCAR fights. This time, even a driver's wife gets in on some action: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3obgQuot5go
Lou Piniella goes bonkers: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7VO8MAnS4tM&feature=related
Woody Hayes punching a Clemson player for no apparent reason: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wEVJyf0ft3I
The Jim Rome show degenerating into a Jerry Springer moment: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dOVxitMy47c
I could post a ton of NHL footage of childish and unsportsmanlike conduct, but I'm unfamiliar with hockey and don't know which players are American and which are Canadian, but I don't see any black players despite the "ghetto" behavior.
And the list goes on and on and on and on. |
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shifter2009
Joined: 03 Sep 2006
Location: wisconsin
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| Posted: Wed Sep 23, 2009 7:31 pm Post subject: |
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| Reggie wrote: |
But is it "black culture" or just blacks showing that they're a part of American culture? Antics like the ones displayed by Williams, West, and Jordan are nothing new and have been quite common by all of us regardless of color.
Here's a list of clips that shows exactly what I'm talking about. Since the OP's avatar is of Bill O'Reilly, we might as well lead off with him: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2tJjNVVwRCY
Then, of course, there's Bobby Knight: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Onfzet1xxs and his most famous moment: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NvRO2GE4x4M&feature=related
And a coach that was somehow crazier than Knight in a hilarious meltdown: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kf9E1zhnFec
George Brett: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=roMbZojHCMY
John McEnroe in a foul mouthed, raquet abusive tirade: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EmJi_oc7t10 McEnroe in one of his more subdued tantrums: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ekQ_Ja02gTY McEnroe getting a little testy: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=THB8N625BvI&feature=related Geriatric McEnroe ... still throwing tantrums: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rkq6ZsYqd5o&feature=related
NASCAR fights. You can take the NASCAR driver out of the ghetto, but can't take the ghetto out of the NASCAR driver? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BLf-ny2I-SY More NASCAR fights. This time, even a driver's wife gets in on some action: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3obgQuot5go
Lou Piniella goes bonkers: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7VO8MAnS4tM&feature=related
Woody Hayes punching a Clemson player for no apparent reason: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wEVJyf0ft3I
The Jim Rome show degenerating into a Jerry Springer moment: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dOVxitMy47c
I could post a ton of NHL footage of childish and unsportsmanlike conduct, but I'm unfamiliar with hockey and don't know which players are American and which are Canadian, but I don't see any black players despite the "ghetto" behavior.
And the list goes on and on and on and on. |
Thanks for doing the youtube work I was to lazy to do. You could have gone on for a while longer too. |
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Reggie
Joined: 21 Sep 2009
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| Posted: Wed Sep 23, 2009 7:55 pm Post subject: |
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| shifter2009 wrote: |
| Thanks for doing the youtube work I was to lazy to do. You could have gone on for a while longer too. |
Yeah, I could've continued posting links until the next Ice Age. And then there's stuff that isn't on YouTube, like Tennessee player Doug Roth flipping off the LSU crowd as he ran down the court and long-time LSU head coach Dale Brown throwing a punch at Tennessee player Carlus Groves two or three years later. And those are just LSU/UT matchups and it isn't even a rivalry! 
The crazy press conferences and unsportsmanlike antics happens with whites and blacks alike, but what's up with whites always streaking on football fields and tennis courts? Even one of my friends, my roommate at the time actually, was going to run across Notre Dame's football field wearing nothing but a diaper with a white bumper sticker with FIRE RANDY in orange on the back of it, but Randy Sanders (the Tennessee offensive coordinator) resigned the Monday after a loss to South Carolina, just days before the matchup with Notre Dame. That was in 2005. I was up there in 1991 when UT was down 31-7 and came from behind to win 35-34 and we stormed their field, living up to their Catholics vs. Clampetts t-shirts. It was awesome. We even used big spoons to dig up their turf for souvenirs. I wish they could've gotten a load of my pal semi-streaking their "hallowed" football field during the '05 game with "Touchdown Jesus" looking on. |
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ManintheMiddle
Joined: 20 Oct 2008
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| Posted: Thu Sep 24, 2009 2:57 am Post subject: |
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Captain Corea commented:
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| So if this is so obvious, why the need to call out one race on it? Why create a whole thread about Black Youth, yet not bother to mention similar problems in their peers? |
Were it obvious than you and a half dozen other detractors here would have gotten the message from the get-go. The fact that you didn't and refuse to even consider what has been already openly acknowledged as an adverse social phenonmenon among a highly disproportionate number of Black youth in America only serves to explain why the thread was posted.
Your assumption is that this is a problem of equal scope and depth in other American racial communities. It isn't, and that's where you're misguided.
Reggie reacted:
| Quote: |
| The crazy press conferences and unsportsmanlike antics happens with whites and blacks alike |
Uh--my criticism wasn't only leveled against Black athletes, although many in the most recent spate happen to be just that. It's also endemic to the much of Black entertainment where youth "culture" dominates.
Is there a problem with jock culture in America? It's a rhetorical question.
But the point remains that ghetto-like behavior is rampant among Black youth and is taken as a source of pride. Ask yourself objectively: how many of those Whites misbehaving weren't a bit regretful for their actions later? How many Whites who deplore this behavior would try to sweep it under the rug or seek to justify it as a form of inner city expression or some similar nonsense? And yet that is precisely the case even now where many in the same generation of Black youth will see nothing wrong with this pathological behavior.
Look, don't listen to this White men; come to terms with the glaring reality that increasing numbers of conservative AND moderate Blacks share my concern. Address this issue in terms of their concern and then get back to me.
Otherwise you're just trying to discredit the messenger. |
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Reggie
Joined: 21 Sep 2009
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| Posted: Thu Sep 24, 2009 3:40 am Post subject: |
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Man in the Middle,
If white America is ashamed of this behavior, why do you see white people in the crowds cheering in the stands when the Jerry Springer moments happen during these games? Go back and look at the YouTube clips and look at the whites in the crowd cheering every time and even throwing debris onto the field in some cases.
If the white celebrities who act up are ashamed of their behavior, why do they do it over and over and over? They even get endorsements because of it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=86_lLQQT3zw National Car Rental has McEnroe recreating his "You Cannot Be Serious" tantrum on their commercials because Americans like McEnroe's behavior. Lou Piniella got an endorsement from Aquafina because of his tantrums: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5uzULboIx3o Bobby Knight got one from Minute Maid because of his: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R_1Hz9cAru8 If whites deplore this type of behavior, why are these celebrities so sought after to do commercials to sell products? It's because we love our trailer trash culture as long as it's white people doing it. If blacks act like they came out of the trailer park, then it's different. When blacks do it, it's "ghetto" and unacceptable. |
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Bronski
Joined: 17 Apr 2006
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| Posted: Thu Sep 24, 2009 5:21 am Post subject: |
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| Reggie wrote: |
Man in the Middle,
If white America is ashamed of this behavior, why do you see white people in the crowds cheering in the stands when the Jerry Springer moments happen during these games? Go back and look at the YouTube clips and look at the whites in the crowd cheering every time and even throwing debris onto the field in some cases.
If the white celebrities who act up are ashamed of their behavior, why do they do it over and over and over? They even get endorsements because of it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=86_lLQQT3zw National Car Rental has McEnroe recreating his "You Cannot Be Serious" tantrum on their commercials because Americans like McEnroe's behavior. Lou Piniella got an endorsement from Aquafina because of his tantrums: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5uzULboIx3o Bobby Knight got one from Minute Maid because of his: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R_1Hz9cAru8 If whites deplore this type of behavior, why are these celebrities so sought after to do commercials to sell products? It's because we love our trailer trash culture as long as it's white people doing it. If blacks act like they came out of the trailer park, then it's different. When blacks do it, it's "ghetto" and unacceptable. |
Ditto.
Look at how NBA players are viewed when they fight (thugs) versus NHL players (working class tough guys). Of course, you'll hear that the basketball players do it because they're influenced by ghetto culture. What makes the hockey players fight so much? Nickleback? |
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RufusW
Joined: 14 Jun 2008
Location: Busan
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| Posted: Thu Sep 24, 2009 5:38 am Post subject: |
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| ManintheMiddle wrote: |
| Ask yourself objectively: how many of those Whites misbehaving weren't a bit regretful for their actions later? How many Whites who deplore this behavior would try to sweep it under the rug or seek to justify it as a form of inner city expression or some similar nonsense? |
Oh, blacks aren't regretful though... except Kayne... who seems to be about 25% of your original argument.
Anyway, do you not think blacks actually have a case re: racial discrimination? I'd be a hella angry if my race was intentionally held down by law enforcement etc.
Regardless, it seems you're interested in race and it frames your whole argument. Stop concentrating on skin colour and look at the underlying causes.
[EDIT] Nickelback sucks. |
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ManintheMiddle
Joined: 20 Oct 2008
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| Posted: Fri Sep 25, 2009 2:53 am Post subject: |
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Bronski babbled:
| Quote: |
| Look at how NBA players are viewed when they fight (thugs) versus NHL players (working class tough guys). Of course, you'll hear that the basketball players do it because they're influenced by ghetto culture. What makes the hockey players fight so much? |
Once again we have a poster focusing on only one aspect of the problem. My concern, as I reiterated, extends well beyond the thuggish behavior of so many athletes. As a former youth hockey player and one who loves to watch college hockey, I have always deplored these NHL antics. Great skating and a clean check always wins out for me.
RufusW wrote:
| Quote: |
Oh, blacks aren't regretful though... except Kayne... who seems to be about 25% of your original argument.
Anyway, do you not think blacks actually have a case re: racial discrimination? I'd be a hella angry if my race was intentionally held down by law enforcement etc.
Regardless, it seems you're interested in race and it frames your whole argument. Stop concentrating on skin colour and look at the underlying causes. |
Yes, race does indeed frame my argument because it is centered on a particular racial demographic although you haven't bothered to account for the fact that my critique is focused on younger generations of Blacks. As soon as a Black or a liberal enabler reduces the argument to one of "skin colour," I know I'm dealing with a knee-jerk responder. Look, it's not the skin color that is at issue here, but the subculture which not only condones but encourages such behavior. As for racial discrimination, that is irrelevant to the situation under review. For if racism engendered this behavior (and mindset), we would have seen it long ago, before the modern civil rights era begin. But this is a recent phenomenon borne in an era where racial discrimination is at low ebb, comparatively speaking.
and wrote:
| Quote: |
If white America is ashamed of this behavior, why do you see white people in the crowds cheering in the stands when the Jerry Springer moments happen during these games? Go back and look at the YouTube clips and look at the whites in the crowd cheering every time and even throwing debris onto the field in some cases.
If the white celebrities who act up are ashamed of their behavior, why do they do it over and over and over? They even get endorsements because of it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=86_lLQQT3zw National Car Rental has McEnroe recreating his "You Cannot Be Serious" tantrum on their commercials because Americans like McEnroe's behavior. Lou Piniella got an endorsement from Aquafina because of his tantrums: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5uzULboIx3o Bobby Knight got one from Minute Maid because of his: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R_1Hz9cAru8 If whites deplore this type of behavior, why are these celebrities so sought after to do commercials to sell products? It's because we love our trailer trash culture as long as it's white people doing it. If blacks act like they came out of the trailer park, then it's different. When blacks do it, it's "ghetto" and unacceptable. |
I've always thought McEnroe was a spoiled jerk and I deplore endorsements for those of any race in our society which rewards bad behavior. As I said repeatedly, the ghetto mentality has migrated to other racial and ethnic groups. But, to be fair as I also said before, not all who live in the ghetto exhibit this behavior.
I'll give you this much: our public discourse and behavior has become increasingly course in recent years and certainly not all of that can be laid at the doorstep of inner city Black America. Indeed, much of this behavior has found a home in both middle class Black and non-Black America as well.
But we find precious few among self-described liberal and Left Black Americans who decry this sort of behavior. Oprah is one. Cosby is another. And Jackson. But, again, they're of an older generation. As for trailer park trash, it's continually mocked across the racial spectrum. Where are the voices of disgust from Spike Lee and other younger Blacks? Nowhere to be found. And why is that? When you can provide a satisfactory response to that question, maybe I'll sit up and listen. |
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morrisonhotel
Joined: 18 Jul 2009
Location: Gyeonggi-do
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| Posted: Fri Sep 25, 2009 5:49 am Post subject: |
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| Just a thought, OP, but you missed out on someone who is probably the most successful black in their respective field of modern times: Tiger Woods. I don't recall Mr. Woods ever acting like that. |
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Reggie
Joined: 21 Sep 2009
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| Posted: Fri Sep 25, 2009 7:35 pm Post subject: |
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| ManintheMiddle wrote: |
| I've always thought McEnroe was a spoiled jerk and I deplore endorsements for those of any race in our society which rewards bad behavior. As I said repeatedly, the ghetto mentality has migrated to other racial and ethnic groups. But, to be fair as I also said before, not all who live in the ghetto exhibit this behavior. |
McEnroe played most of his pro tennis in the 1980s. Serena Williams had her tantrum in 2009. If there's been a ghetto mentality that has migrated from blacks to whites, why did many of McEnroe's blowups predate Serena Williams's meltown by over a quarter-century? I don't think there's been a ghetto mentality that has migrated from one race to another. It's just been a part of American culture for at least as long as the "ugly American" stereotype has existed.
When a black person acts up, he or she deserves the blame for his or her behavior. Likewise, when a white person acts up, he or she deserves the blame for his or her behavior. Blaming blacks for every bad thing is lame and not fair. We have TONS of African-American soldiers from urban ghettos in the army, but we can't blame them for what the whites did at Abu Ghraib, since the blacks were Doing the Right Thing.
| ManintheMiddle wrote: |
| But we find precious few among self-described liberal and Left Black Americans who decry this sort of behavior. Oprah is one. Cosby is another. And Jackson. But, again, they're of an older generation. As for trailer park trash, it's continually mocked across the racial spectrum. Where are the voices of disgust from Spike Lee and other younger Blacks? Nowhere to be found. And why is that? When you can provide a satisfactory response to that question, maybe I'll sit up and listen. |
Some people of all races condemn bad behavior while some people of all races don't condemn bad behavior, so I'm not sure what point you're trying to make.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q6W7FY0-mks&feature=related |
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ManintheMiddle
Joined: 20 Oct 2008
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| Posted: Sun Sep 27, 2009 7:58 am Post subject: |
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morrisonfleabaghotel reminded:
| Quote: |
| Just a thought, OP, but you missed out on someone who is probably the most successful black in their respective field of modern times: Tiger Woods. I don't recall Mr. Woods ever acting like that. |
Gee, thanks for the heads-up. I suppose I could continue in this flippant vein and declare Woods as the exception proving the rule. Instead, I suggest you go back and read my original post and you'll realize your contribution is about as worthwhile as a cleaning lady in the typical Seoul two star hotel.
Reggie, ever defensive, replied:
| Quote: |
| McEnroe played most of his pro tennis in the 1980s. Serena Williams had her tantrum in 2009. If there's been a ghetto mentality that has migrated from blacks to whites, why did many of McEnroe's blowups predate Serena Williams's meltown by over a quarter-century? I don't think there's been a ghetto mentality that has migrated from one race to another. It's just been a part of American culture for at least as long as the "ugly American" stereotype has existed. |
The stereotype to which you refer was coined after a book by the same title appeared in the early 1960s, actually. And it referred to an American misbehaving in Vietnam.
So let's see if I've got this straight: since McEnroe predates Williams' tirade by two decades or more, it negates everything I've said and that moderate and conservative Black commentators have observed about trends in the social behavior of Black youth, eh? Steel trap logic there, Sherlock.
| Quote: |
| When a black person acts up, he or she deserves the blame for his or her behavior. Likewise, when a white person acts up, he or she deserves the blame for his or her behavior. Blaming blacks for every bad thing is lame and not fair. We have TONS of African-American soldiers from urban ghettos in the army, but we can't blame them for what the whites did at Abu Ghraib, since the blacks were Doing the Right Thing. |
Yes, Black soldiers ain't misbehavin' in the Middle East, eh? No, they confine their shenanigans to the Far East, as in raping Okinawan girls and the like.
Editing hint: "tons of" isn't exactly good English there, buster brown. |
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Enrico Palazzo
Mod Team
Joined: 11 Mar 2008
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| Posted: Sun Sep 27, 2009 11:17 am Post subject: |
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[quote="ManintheMiddle"]morrisonfleabaghotel reminded:
| Quote: |
| Just a thought, OP, but you missed out on someone who is probably the most successful black in their respective field of modern times: Tiger Woods. I don't recall Mr. Woods ever acting like that. |
Gee, thanks for the heads-up. I suppose I could continue in this flippant vein and declare Woods as the exception proving the rule. Instead, I suggest you go back and read my original post and you'll realize your contribution is about as worthwhile as a cleaning lady in the typical Seoul two star hotel.
If someone doesn't follow the TOS and feels he or she must boost their ego by being unprofessional and insulting other people because they are different, well, then, we have to toss them per the TOS rules.
Was that insult really necessary? We're adults here. |
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dmbfan
Joined: 09 Mar 2006
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| Posted: Mon Sep 28, 2009 9:44 am Post subject: |
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[quote]Fair enough, and I'm game. Let me clarify: yes, Jordan is chronologically of a different generation and should know better but he has evidently bought into the ghetto mindset. That he doesn't come from the ghetto makes his actions even less excusable. Same goes for Serena. Anyway, I
| Quote: |
knew this already. Think of it this way: you now have a pattern (it's beyond a trend) of behavior which buys into an imagined hood experience. As I said before, it's a kind of wannabe ghetto conduct, which is even more pathetic because it's imitative. It appeals to the lowest common denominator of strata of American society: the willing ghetto boy (no perjorative intended). It's a subculture within African American culture which is spreading fast and crossing racial lines. It is a form of social ghettoization and it's considered by its "practitioners" to be extremely hip. But my main contention is that it is part and parcel of a growing need among far too many (re: not all) Black youth that being cool or trying to be perceived as cool--which now includes being angry and indignant without just cause for either--matters more than being right, righteous, or well-bred (re: mannered). It is a growing phenomenon which hasn't been explored by the Left, either Black or White intelligentsia because it's considered taboo, against the grain of politically correct inquiry.
And to understand it requires introspection at the community level, which until now only a handful of well-educated Blacks have been willing to do (e.g., Cosby, Steele, Keyes, McWhorter, etc.).
Let me clear: this behavior is no longer limited to the Black community and indeed imitators in other racial and ethnic groups now abound. But it is at its root endemic to the Black inner city, although of course many Blacks who live there don't buy into this mindset. That's why you see young Blacks who attend suburban schools acting out, trying to be what they imagine their bros in the hood say and do. It's why so many snicker at Whites like Eminem or even Asians who try to imitate their "style," all the while not realizing or caring that the long tradition of Black American popular culture attempted, sometimes in vain but always in earnest, to eschew it.
Coolness, on the other hand, has gone from being a coping mechanism in times of segregation to a warped kind of fashion statement--not only literally in the dress of those who flaunt it but in their attitudes and behavior. It's a kind of raw, in-your-face, proud-to-be-ignorant, defiance without, usually, just cause to be such. It's perverse, it distorts community, it disrupts relationships in the Black community, and constitutes a social contagion, which most youth regardless of culture are susceptible too.
I could go on and on but if you haven't got the point by now you probably never will. It's not pretty but it's as real as it comes and, as The Black Avenger often reminds us on his radio show, it is insidious and ultimately self-destructive. Of course, the Afrocentrics and the masters of critical race theory like Cornell West and bell hooks would have us believe it's all the direct outcome of persistent racism in American society. But that's not only untrue; it's a cop out, which only White liberals trying to assuage their sense of guilt and idiots like Kanye West buy into. |
I don't know why people are making such a fuss over this......insecurity, perhaps?
It is a rational, objective explanation.
dmbfan |
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