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The Gipkik
Joined: 30 Mar 2009
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 Posted: Mon Sep 21, 2009 2:36 am Post subject: |
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| Sounds like existentialism to me. With freedom comes not only choice, but self-realization. In some important ways, feminism unlocked the doors to a woman's right to and ability to self-actualize. And with that comes the realization that she still has a conscious mind (and all that consciousness entails) and the limitations of her humanity to deal with. |
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Draz
Joined: 27 Jun 2007
Location: Land of Morning Clam
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| Posted: Mon Sep 21, 2009 4:24 am Post subject: |
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| Konglishman wrote: |
It is a good a post, but it is tangential in the sense that it is not addressing why it is that women's happiness is declining. |
Why wouldn't the rampaging media with all its gloom and doom make women unhappy? There were always wars, but you didn't hear so much about them in the past.
All of the people I know who are emotionally obsessed with distant foreign wars fought entirely by strangers are women. I just can't manage to care about that sort of thing, but I've always been kind of cold. (For a woman.)
| The Gipkik wrote: |
| Sounds like existentialism to me. With freedom comes not only choice, but self-realization. In some important ways, feminism unlocked the doors to a woman's right to and ability to self-actualize. And with that comes the realization that she still has a conscious mind (and all that consciousness entails) and the limitations of her humanity to deal with. |
This is a great post! I didn't know you had it in you.  |
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The Gipkik
Joined: 30 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Mon Sep 21, 2009 4:39 am Post subject: |
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| Draz wrote: |
| The Gipkik wrote: |
| Sounds like existentialism to me. With freedom comes not only choice, but self-realization. In some important ways, feminism unlocked the doors to a woman's right to and ability to self-actualize. And with that comes the realization that she still has a conscious mind (and all that consciousness entails) and the limitations of her humanity to deal with. |
This is a great post! I didn't know you had it in you. |
Had what in me, Draz?  |
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Konglishman
Joined: 14 Sep 2007
Location: Nanjing
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| Posted: Mon Sep 21, 2009 4:47 am Post subject: |
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| Draz wrote: |
| Konglishman wrote: |
It is a good a post, but it is tangential in the sense that it is not addressing why it is that women's happiness is declining. |
Why wouldn't the rampaging media with all its gloom and doom make women unhappy? There were always wars, but you didn't hear so much about them in the past.
All of the people I know who are emotionally obsessed with distant foreign wars fought entirely by strangers are women. I just can't manage to care about that sort of thing, but I've always been kind of cold. (For a woman.) |
I am a man and I certainly do pay attention to what is going in Iraq and Afghanistan. Further, I have to tell you that I was quite disappointed when the 2007 Buddhist monk led protests in Myanmar failed to free the country from tyranny. But at the end of the day, these things do not affect my personal happiness. So, I don't find the media explanation to be a compelling reason. |
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Konglishman
Joined: 14 Sep 2007
Location: Nanjing
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| Posted: Mon Sep 21, 2009 4:49 am Post subject: |
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| The Gipkik wrote: |
| Sounds like existentialism to me. With freedom comes not only choice, but self-realization. In some important ways, feminism unlocked the doors to a woman's right to and ability to self-actualize. And with that comes the realization that she still has a conscious mind (and all that consciousness entails) and the limitations of her humanity to deal with. |
So, the question is there a stage beyond that which explains why men are actually happier. Or are men actually regressing? |
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I'm no Picasso
Joined: 28 Oct 2008
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| Posted: Mon Sep 21, 2009 4:57 am Post subject: |
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Epicurus: Did you start this thread specifically to give my evening's entertainment?
Let's get dug in, shall we?
| Joe666 wrote: |
I believe he did read the entire article and summed it up in one word!! The truth really hurts sometimes!! |
The fact that you seem almost thrilled that women are unhappy is reason enough to discount anything else you have to say. I don't know who she was, but I hope she was pretty. It'd be a shame to let yourself become so bitter over a total minger.
| blaseblasphemener wrote: |
| It's always been my feeling that women in Korea seem happier than women back home (Canada). |
And how many heart-to-hearts have you had with Korean women? And how many different kinds of Korean women? Specifically, the ajumma you reference?
| Goku wrote: |
They are happy. AND they have their fair amount of stress. They still manage their kids and their education. The thing is they can do it better and more efficiently than a mom who works a job (for obvious reasons). They just aren't as spread out. Which the article said. They focus on their children, because that is their job. They don't have split duties and need to make value judgments such as "should I go to work today? or stay home for my sick child?"
Frankly speaking, I believe the decline in household values, morals, and a stable home has been in large attribute to the working mom. I believe in equality... but, who really wants to work? The grass is greener on the other side of the fence. So seeing someone mowing the lawn and it looked so awesome? IT SUCKS no one wants to work. I heard some survey about job satisfaction and only about 10% of people are satisfied with their job. It maybe a crap survey but it sounds about right. (Rant over)
There is too little focus on the raising of children with values and too much focus on financial wealth. I'd so stay at home and watch my kids if it wasn't for the laughing all my buddies would have at my expense. Family and household cohesiveness is greatly improved with a dependable parent and home raising the children. There's no doubt about that. |
Goku -- You're above this. All of this. You're saying you believe women should sacrifice any dreams they may have of a career of any kind to care for her children, but you wouldn't be willing to do the same because your friends would make fun of you? Read that over again and think on it a bit.
A woman doesn't have different natural drives than a man. It's no easier for a woman who is naturally career oriented and happier in a work environment to look a life full of laundry and dirty diapers in the face than it is for a man. Being a housewife can be extraordinarily lonely. Also, it puts you in a position of complete dependence on your husband (oh, you're liking the sound of that, aren't you boys?). Should he choose to *beep* off with his secretary, that's you down on the breadline, working the double shift (you have no career experience, no education...) AND trying to raise your kids alone.
You can argue that it's the "right" way all you want -- there's no way in hell that you can argue that it's the smart way. |
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I'm no Picasso
Joined: 28 Oct 2008
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| Posted: Mon Sep 21, 2009 5:01 am Post subject: |
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| blaseblasphemener wrote: |
The study says younger women are happier than older women. The last two posters confirm this.
Wait til your in your 50s, kids have left the nest (yes, you will end up having some soon I'd bet), and check back with us about how happy you are.
I'd the say movie Sex in the City sums it up nicely for women. Most live and breath by what guy is interested in them. When the looks start heading south, and the clock starts ticking, and when friends are all getting married and having kids, then desperation sets in and the hunt is on for any man who will have them at their advanced stage of life. Sounds cold, but damn if it ain't true.
Biology is a bich. |
PS -- This is psychotic. Ten points to the one who can spot the guy who's going to end up eating tins of dog food in his cabin in the woods by the time he's 65. |
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The Gipkik
Joined: 30 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Mon Sep 21, 2009 5:20 am Post subject: |
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| Konglishman wrote: |
| The Gipkik wrote: |
| Sounds like existentialism to me. With freedom comes not only choice, but self-realization. In some important ways, feminism unlocked the doors to a woman's right to and ability to self-actualize. And with that comes the realization that she still has a conscious mind (and all that consciousness entails) and the limitations of her humanity to deal with. |
So, the question is there a stage beyond that which explains why men are actually happier. Or are men actually regressing? |
Existentialism as a form of conscious apprehension and bewilderment for men goes back a long, long way. This is the human condition, above and beyond any gendered bifurcation. Thinking men have had to wrastle this dinosaur, philosophically speaking, for a longer time. As you know, what was once recondite philosophical gobbledegook, is now a mainstream soundbite. Think travels. It breaks apart in a hurricane of unsavory intentions, but it still travels.
This is not to say that many women didn't experience this specific kind of angst in the past; many artists and scientists surely did, but it was private and more emotional. They used to call it hysteria. It isn't anymore. The present situation has nothing to do with any one person, but the incessant need of the media circus to spin it and academia to 'search it. Much more to this of course... |
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Epicurus
Joined: 18 Jun 2009
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| Posted: Mon Sep 21, 2009 5:22 am Post subject: |
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| I'm no Picasso wrote: |
Epicurus: Did you start this thread specifically to give my evening's entertainment?
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no, but if turned out that way I am extraordinarily pleased.
I don't have much to offer beyond the few pithy observations I already offered, but I did think it was an interesting topic, and certainly one which is already being promised to be bandied about and written by many a famous columnist stateside (Dowd is most certainly one such columnist)
I was also curious if Korean cultural differences made it different for Korean women.
Being a man of course, I haven't the foggiest idea of what women generally think about in terms of anything but I haven't given up in hoping to least understand bits and pieces of the female psyche.
so I wanted to just lean back and hear what the gals might say.
However I am also leery of broad generalizations, knowing that I must have kindred female spirits out there somewhere who are genetically and mentally wired to zig whenever they see the frenzied (and by definition idiotic) "masses" zagging. |
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I'm no Picasso
Joined: 28 Oct 2008
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| Posted: Mon Sep 21, 2009 5:50 am Post subject: |
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| Epicurus wrote: |
| I'm no Picasso wrote: |
Epicurus: Did you start this thread specifically to give my evening's entertainment?
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no, but if turned out that way I am extraordinarily pleased.
I don't have much to offer beyond the few pithy observations I already offered, but I did think it was an interesting topic, and certainly one which is already being promised to be bandied about and written by many a famous columnist stateside (Dowd is most certainly one such columnist)
I was also curious if Korean cultural differences made it different for Korean women.
Being a man of course, I haven't the foggiest idea of what women generally think about in terms of anything but I haven't given up in hoping to least understand bits and pieces of the female psyche.
so I wanted to just lean back and hear what the gals might say.
However I am also leery of broad generalizations, knowing that I must have kindred female spirits out there somewhere who are genetically and mentally wired to zig whenever they see the frenzied (and by definition idiotic) "masses" zagging. |
I think happiness is a really strange thing to try to quantify. I also, actually, don't have many formed opinions on this subject matter, although it's certainly interesting. I think some people have made some interesting points, though, about self-actualization.
Although I would feel inclined to suggest the possibility that, given that I have absolutely no idea how such 'tests' are administered, one might do well to remember that presenting an image of happiness and being happy are two very different things. Imagine the expectations held up for a 1950s American housewife, in terms of accepting her 'lot' in life, versus a modern American woman, who is more free to question her situation.
One might also do well to apply that line of thought to the expectations for women in modern Korean society.
Personally, I've had many heartbreaking conversations with older married women here in Korea. And I've also had many heartbreaking conversations with women back home in the U.S. I will say that, in general, despite what some men are bandying about in this thread, being married and staying home, caring for her children definitely does not exclude a woman from being completely miserable. Growing old and staying single may not be the most appealing option for some -- okay. But feeling like your life is a prison isn't exactly a desirable fate, either. |
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Epicurus
Joined: 18 Jun 2009
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| Posted: Mon Sep 21, 2009 6:05 am Post subject: |
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you make good points and I also liked gipkib's point which though sounded like some psycho babble I actually knew what he was getting at
re where one is and how one feels about one's situations and one's partner in life later on all pretty much depends on that partner and the circumstances and experiences with that partner, neh?
If you married a friend, but managed to retain or develop a physical attraction or if you married for physical attraction but also later managed to develop a true friendship and respect for each other based on common travails, battles fought/shared, etc
well - then I think growing old with that person/partner might be a wonderful thing indeed.
perhaps the only reason NOT to jump off a cliff.
but then it all goes back to how many people marry such partners and why they marry in the first place. My initial guess would be that a good 75% of people marry the wrong person, marry at the wrong time and marry for the wrong reasons.
Then at or nearly after middle age, as feelings of mortality and geeerdom seep in, amplified if a parent passes away - you wonder at how life COULD have been... how you wanted /dreamed for it to be.. and then how it is... and that can be very very depressing for most people indeed.
and I also think such "bad" marriages are far worse for women.
There are pickings a plenty for the male geezers at the retirement home should he want to start "again". (and far more opportunites to marry a much younger partner..and let's face it, men aren't that complicated.. you get us a partner we're sexually excite about and you're more than halfway (if not more so) home)
Fierce fierce competition for the grannies. |
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Mallard
Joined: 03 Jul 2008
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| Posted: Sat Oct 03, 2009 5:43 pm Post subject: |
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My grandmother had 8 kids and 12 pregnancies. By the time she was 60 she looked like she was 80 with the figure of a mac truck and disfiguring varicose veins. She told me that after her 2nd pregnancy she went to her doctor and asked for birth control. His reply was that if she didn't want children she shouldn't have gotten married. Let's just say my grandfather wasn�t particularly sympathetic to his wife about wanting to control the pregnancies.
So, yeah, I don't really buy this whole women are getting unhappier thing. If you talk to enough older women, and read enough history books, you should know that it's never been a walk in the park. |
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Carla
Joined: 21 Nov 2008
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| Posted: Sat Oct 03, 2009 10:17 pm Post subject: |
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| Mallard wrote: |
My grandmother had 8 kids and 12 pregnancies. By the time she was 60 she looked like she was 80 with the figure of a mac truck and disfiguring varicose veins. She told me that after her 2nd pregnancy she went to her doctor and asked for birth control. His reply was that if she didn't want children she shouldn't have gotten married. Let's just say my grandfather wasn�t particularly sympathetic to his wife about wanting to control the pregnancies.
So, yeah, I don't really buy this whole women are getting unhappier thing. If you talk to enough older women, and read enough history books, you should know that it's never been a walk in the park. |
I don't think women are getting unhappier. I think the unhappy women are just getting loud about it. It's just in the past, women were expected to be silent about unpleasant things. Like spousal abuse, child abuse, sexual abuse, etc.
All in all, I think women are happier today than in the past. |
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Privateer
Joined: 31 Aug 2005
Location: Easy Street.
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| Posted: Sun Oct 04, 2009 12:51 am Post subject: |
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| Does this mean it's not true after all that older women who divorce are happier than their ex-husbands? Is it a myth that women after divorce go on to greater personal fufillment and satisfaction while men go to pieces? Something doesn't add up. |
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Carla
Joined: 21 Nov 2008
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| Posted: Sun Oct 04, 2009 1:23 am Post subject: |
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| Privateer wrote: |
| Does this mean it's not true after all that older women who divorce are happier than their ex-husbands? Is it a myth that women after divorce go on to greater personal fufillment and satisfaction while men go to pieces? Something doesn't add up. |
Probably depends on how long they've been married.
Married men live longer than single/divorced men on average.
But if a woman dies first, (speaking of senior citizens) then quite often men who are otherwise healthy with the exception of their age seem to just give up. At the same time, women who lose their husbands go on for many years later. Theory - men focus on their wives, and when the wives are gone, they lose that focus. Women focus on their children and grandchildren, and when they lose their husbands, they still have a focus.
I think if people get divorced young/younger, both people have a chance to move on and have fullfilling lives. |
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