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Sergio Stefanuto
Joined: 14 May 2009
Location: UK
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 Posted: Mon Sep 14, 2009 7:01 pm Post subject: |
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| Big_Bird wrote: |
You are suggesting that it is only Islam that is the cause of these 'crazy ideas.' |
If an old man wants to take a child bride, he�ll find some excuse. The fact that it is permitted in a holy book (and was also practised by the Prophet) is, I should think, the best possible excuse.
Oh, no, hang on a minute. I forgot. If the taking of child brides occurs in non-Muslim contexts, Islam cannot possibly motivate the taking of child brides. Indeed, since death occurs all over the world in all manner of circumstances, smoking cannot possibly cause death. And, since Bob - a non-Muslim - beats his wife and Ahmed - a Muslim - also beats his wife, Islam and its views on women cannot possibly have motivated Ahmed to beat his wife.
Puerile.
| Big Bird wrote: |
| child brides were once very common in Manchester too...long before the muslims arrived there. |
Well, if old men took child brides in Manchester long before the arrival of Muslims, it can't possibly be Islam that motivates the taking of child brides amongst Muslims, can it?
Violence occurs all over the world.
So Islam cannot possibly cause violence.
Old men taking child brides occurs in the non-Muslim world
So Islam cannot possibly motivate the taking of child brides.
Sorry, but this is totally, hopelessly puerile. |
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bacasper
Joined: 26 Mar 2007
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| Posted: Mon Sep 14, 2009 7:17 pm Post subject: |
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| Big_Bird wrote: |
Are you telling me that men only marry small girls because of the Koran? Do you realise that child brides have always been found worldwide throughout history, Islam or no Islam? You think a man could only think of f***ing a small girl because he'd read the Koran?
What about these Aussie men holidaying in Thailand? Are they preying on hapless young girls because of the Koran? Most of these guys will be white Anglo-saxons http://au.news.yahoo.com/a/-/mp/6028616/child-sex-tourism-study-blames-aussies/ |
So now you are equating marriage with prostitution? 
You are married, aren't you?
| Sergio Stefanuto wrote: |
| Puerile |
That is an ironically poor choice of adjective for this conversation. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Tue Sep 15, 2009 6:14 pm Post subject: |
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| Big_Bird wrote: |
No, you are utterly puerile. You are suggesting that it is only Islam that is the cause of these 'crazy ideas.' Child brides were once very common in Manchester too...long before the muslims arrived there. |
So because it was once common and acceptable in some places in the West, it is acceptable for Islamic practitioners now? |
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bacasper
Joined: 26 Mar 2007
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| Posted: Tue Sep 15, 2009 10:09 pm Post subject: |
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| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| Big_Bird wrote: |
No, you are utterly puerile. You are suggesting that it is only Islam that is the cause of these 'crazy ideas.' Child brides were once very common in Manchester too...long before the muslims arrived there. |
So because it was once common and acceptable in some places in the West, it is acceptable for Islamic practitioners now? |
What does the timing have to do with it? |
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Summer Wine
Joined: 20 Mar 2005
Location: Next to a River
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| Posted: Tue Sep 15, 2009 11:56 pm Post subject: |
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"Worse than the taliban" is catchy.
Though in all fairness it seems to be a split between Facism and Anarchy.
Taliban seem to promote facism, the warlords anarchy.
Both don't seem to help anyone really, but I guess it relates to the age old question of whether you would rather be killed by the government or a criminal.
I am so sorry for the Afghan people who just want to wake up each day without fear, but its hard to say it would be better if the rest of the world was hands off. We were prior to the taliban entering and look what happened.
The best option would probably be for Karzai or Abdullah to ask the pakistanis to support them militarily and then there would be no reason for them to support the taliban.
It might not be good for the afghan people but what do you really expect will happen if we leave. At the least we should leave the SF in the northern regions and continue to supply them even if we do leave the Pashtun area.
By the way, if women from Britain are sold in Yemen as wives, then we can't expect to protect the afghans if we can't protect our own citizens. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Sun Sep 20, 2009 9:02 pm Post subject: |
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| bacasper wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| Big_Bird wrote: |
No, you are utterly puerile. You are suggesting that it is only Islam that is the cause of these 'crazy ideas.' Child brides were once very common in Manchester too...long before the muslims arrived there. |
So because it was once common and acceptable in some places in the West, it is acceptable for Islamic practitioners now? |
What does the timing have to do with it? |
Which was my question to BB...let's hope we get an answer. |
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Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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| Posted: Sun Sep 20, 2009 11:43 pm Post subject: |
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| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| Big_Bird wrote: |
No, you are utterly puerile. You are suggesting that it is only Islam that is the cause of these 'crazy ideas.' Child brides were once very common in Manchester too...long before the muslims arrived there. |
So because it was once common and acceptable in some places in the West, it is acceptable for Islamic practitioners now? |
Whoever said it was acceptable? What's the use of 'debating' with fantasists who keep inventing your views for you.
It's quite revolting. But go and ask that same question to those warlords our governments are now propping up. You'll find many of them think it IS acceptable. You pretend to have liberated the Afgan women...and yet you've propped up vicious savage misognists every bit as bad as the Taleban themselves. In fact, so bad are they, and so much terror did they bring to the women of Afghanistan in the eighties and nineties, that they made even the Taleban themselves look like an improvement when the Taleban took over. And now these 'millionaire rapists' - as Afghani feminists call them - are back in power. Thanks to us. And we pretend we have brought female emancipation to that corner of the world. It would be hilarious if it wasn't so bloody sad.
And now I know you are going to struggle to process that which I have written here, and you are now going to say that I support the Taleban. And I'm going to have correct you once again. No wonder I don't usually bother posting here. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Mon Sep 21, 2009 3:52 pm Post subject: |
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| Big_Bird wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| Big_Bird wrote: |
No, you are utterly puerile. You are suggesting that it is only Islam that is the cause of these 'crazy ideas.' Child brides were once very common in Manchester too...long before the muslims arrived there. |
So because it was once common and acceptable in some places in the West, it is acceptable for Islamic practitioners now? |
Whoever said it was acceptable? What's the use of 'debating' with fantasists who keep inventing your views for you.
I'm sure I never said it was acceptable or said you said it was. It was a QUESTION which I'm simply asking because you were taking Mr. Stefanuto to task for criticizing Islam because men were taking child brides. You claimed that this was common in Manchester a long while ago. But so what? What is the relevance? It was bad then and it is bad now.
It's quite revolting. But go and ask that same question to those warlords our governments are now propping up. You'll find many of them think it IS acceptable. You pretend to have liberated the Afgan women...and yet you've propped up vicious savage misognists every bit as bad as the Taleban themselves.
I'm sure I've not done either. What was that you were saying about "fantastists" inventing one's views...?
In fact, so bad are they, and so much terror did they bring to the women of Afghanistan in the eighties and nineties, that they made even the Taleban themselves look like an improvement when the Taleban took over. And now these 'millionaire rapists' - as Afghani feminists call them - are back in power. Thanks to us. And we pretend we have brought female emancipation to that corner of the world. It would be hilarious if it wasn't so bloody sad.
And now I know you are going to struggle to process that which I have written here, and you are now going to say that I support the Taleban.
Could you please repeat that phrase about "fantasists" inventing one's views. Didn't catch it the first time...
And I'm going to have correct you once again. No wonder I don't usually bother posting here. |
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Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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| Posted: Mon Sep 21, 2009 6:22 pm Post subject: |
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| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| Big_Bird wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| Big_Bird wrote: |
No, you are utterly puerile. You are suggesting that it is only Islam that is the cause of these 'crazy ideas.' Child brides were once very common in Manchester too...long before the muslims arrived there. |
So because it was once common and acceptable in some places in the West, it is acceptable for Islamic practitioners now? |
Whoever said it was acceptable? What's the use of 'debating' with fantasists who keep inventing your views for you.
I'm sure I never said it was acceptable or said you said it was. It was a QUESTION which I'm simply asking because you were taking Mr. Stefanuto to task for criticizing Islam because men were taking child brides. You claimed that this was common in Manchester a long while ago. But so what? What is the relevance? It was bad then and it is bad now.
I hate the way you quote. But following your conventions, here we go.
Our Mancurian restauranteer was suggesting that crazy ideas like sleeping with children could come only from their particular religion, which is obvious nonsense. I scoffed at such an idiotic notion. My point was clear to most people, and it is tiresome to have to explain again, it as though to a child. So I won't.
It's quite revolting. But go and ask that same question to those warlords our governments are now propping up. You'll find many of them think it IS acceptable. You pretend to have liberated the Afgan women...and yet you've propped up vicious savage misognists every bit as bad as the Taleban themselves.
I'm sure I've not done either. What was that you were saying about "fantastists" inventing one's views...?
In fact, so bad are they, and so much terror did they bring to the women of Afghanistan in the eighties and nineties, that they made even the Taleban themselves look like an improvement when the Taleban took over. And now these 'millionaire rapists' - as Afghani feminists call them - are back in power. Thanks to us. And we pretend we have brought female emancipation to that corner of the world. It would be hilarious if it wasn't so bloody sad.
And now I know you are going to struggle to process that which I have written here, and you are now going to say that I support the Taleban.
Could you please repeat that phrase about "fantasists" inventing one's views. Didn't catch it the first time...
And I'm going to have correct you once again. No wonder I don't usually bother posting here. |
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Last edited by Big_Bird on Mon Sep 21, 2009 6:29 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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| Posted: Mon Sep 21, 2009 6:26 pm Post subject: |
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Here to help TUM better process my last point is the post to which I originally replied. A very silly ill-thought comment by SS.
He also takes the headline: 60% of women are married as children and makes a connection (by virtue of his comment) that such children are nine year old girls. Sometimes that may be so. But the usual definition of children means all those under 18 years of age. In the UK it is quite legal for children to marry, and I know white anglo-saxon children who have married soon after they left 5th form. It's quite common all around the (developing) world for women to be married once they hit puberty - but his post suggests this is both 'crazy' and perculiar to 'Muslims.' |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Mon Sep 21, 2009 6:40 pm Post subject: |
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| Big_Bird wrote: |
Here to help TUM better process my last point is the post to which I originally replied. A very silly ill-thought comment by SS.
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He never said that ONLY Muslims do this.
In fact he admitted that other non-Muslim countries do it too.
What I gathered from his posts, was that Islam is bad because it permits these practises. But I didn't gather anything that said it was permissible anywhere else or at any other time by any other religion.
I would say that any religion/cult/organization/group/country that permits the taking of child brides, is utterly and completely wrong. Mr. Stefanuto would probably agree given his stance on the issue so far. But rather than attribute any views to him, let's ask him.
Sergio Stefanuto (if you are still following this conversation) may we know your position on the taking of child brides in ANY country, Muslim or not? |
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Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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| Posted: Mon Sep 21, 2009 6:59 pm Post subject: |
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TUM, play this conversation out with SS if you like, but I'm not interested in this line of discussion anymore. I made my point to him a long time ago, and don't need to be stuck here forever more like a broken down record.
I've got two assignments to have in by Friday, which I have to fit around my mothering responsibilities, and this is just a really tedious waste of my time. |
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Sergio Stefanuto
Joined: 14 May 2009
Location: UK
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| Posted: Mon Sep 21, 2009 7:42 pm Post subject: |
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How's it possible for someone to read this.....
And summarize it as this.....
| Big_Bird wrote: |
sleeping with children could come only from their particular religion, |
hmm?
I said that Muslims get their ideas about child marriage from Islam. The Islamic texts prescribe child sex and child marriage - so some connection between the religion of Islam and the practises of adherents seems justified, does it not?
That was obviously wrong though, because, if child marriage occurs in non-Muslim contexts, child marriage in Muslim countries cannot possibly be informed by Islam.
Likewise, if sober people crash their cars, drinking and driving doesn't cause crashes.
Brilliant. |
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Sergio Stefanuto
Joined: 14 May 2009
Location: UK
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| Posted: Mon Sep 21, 2009 8:00 pm Post subject: |
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| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
Sergio Stefanuto (if you are still following this conversation) may we know your position on the taking of child brides in ANY country, Muslim or not? |
It disgusts me. Most governments in Islamic countries don't agree with it either, hence the introduction of secular laws introducing prohibition of marriages under a certain age. But it's very difficult to enforce, because what are the pronouncements of some government compared to the Sunnah of the Prophet (may the peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) and the word of God?
Case in point:
| Quote: |
The Yemeni parliament tried in February to pass a law, setting the minimum marriage age at 17. But the measure has not reached the president because many parliamentarians argued it violates sharia, which does not stipulate a minimum age.
http://www.cnn.com/2009/HEALTH/09/14/yemen.childbirth.death/ |
Rape, wife-beating, child marriage and sex with prepubuscent girls are all prescribed in the Qur'aan and/or Hadeeth. Naturally, this informs the raping of women, the beating of wives, child marriage and sex with prepubescent girls in the Muslim world.
Oh no, hang on, it can't possibly, since the raping of women, the beating of wives, child marriage and sex with prepubescent girls occurs in non-Muslim contexts. Likewise, since there is a link between smog and lung cancer, smoking cannot possibly cause lung cancer.
Puerile. |
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Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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| Posted: Mon Sep 21, 2009 8:42 pm Post subject: |
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| Sergio Stefanuto wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
Sergio Stefanuto (if you are still following this conversation) may we know your position on the taking of child brides in ANY country, Muslim or not? |
It disgusts me. Most governments in Islamic countries don't agree with it either, hence the introduction of secular laws introducing prohibition of marriages under a certain age. But it's very difficult to enforce, because what are the pronouncements of some government compared to the Sunnah of the Prophet (may the peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) and the word of God?
Case in point:
| Quote: |
The Yemeni parliament tried in February to pass a law, setting the minimum marriage age at 17. But the measure has not reached the president because many parliamentarians argued it violates sharia, which does not stipulate a minimum age.
http://www.cnn.com/2009/HEALTH/09/14/yemen.childbirth.death/ |
Rape, wife-beating, child marriage and sex with prepubuscent girls are all prescribed in the Qur'aan and/or Hadeeth. Naturally, this informs the raping of women, the beating of wives, child marriage and sex with prepubescent girls in the Muslim world.
Oh no, hang on, it can't possibly, since the raping of women, the beating of wives, child marriage and sex with prepubescent girls occurs in non-Muslim contexts. Likewise, since there is a link between smog and lung cancer, smoking cannot possibly cause lung cancer.
Puerile. |
Accuracy, please. It is not the Koran that prescribes marriage with prepubescent girls. Rather, some Imams have taken the hadith (written after the cults founder was long since dead) where Aisha claims to have been 9 years old when the marriage was consumated, as proof that such marriages are fine and dandy. In fact, the hadiths are disputed, and regularly ignored. Not only that, the writings are contradictory, and Islamic scholars have pointed out that Aisha couldn't possibly have been 9 at the time, as it doesn't make any chronological sense when they examine it in the context of other writings about her, her families movements, and those of the Prophet. But we've talked about this before, and you've conveniently ignored it.
I asked a Libyan about this months ago. I asked "did you know that the Prophet is supposed to have slept with a 9 year old girl?" He was shocked, and asked where I'd got this information (that he'd never heard). He didn't actually believe it (which shows that at least in his own culture, marriage with 9 year old girls is not promoted, despite his country being Islamic). I explained that in a hadith Aisha claimed that the Prophet slept with her when he was nine. He said well not all the hadiths are true. I asked how do you know which are true and which are not? He said people argued about the hadiths all the time, and you had to just 'feel with your heart.' And on being pressed he said he could 'feel with his heart' that that particular hadith was utter bollocks. Marriages with pre-pubescent girls was something unheard of in his culture. Only a sick man would want to do that, he assured me.
So, it really was news to my friend, who was brought up in what is quite a devout Muslim country, that sleeping with prepubescent girls was condoned in his religion.
And you are still talking as though were it not for Islam, no Afghani man would be getting his jollies with prepubescent girls. You know quite well your line of argument is moronic, but here is a list of countries from UNICEF showing Pecentage of women age 20-24 who were first married/in union by the age of 18
As you look down you'll see many of the big offenders, such as Nepal, Malawi, Madagascar and Zambia are largely free of Islam, or countries that only have a minority of Muslims, such as Uganda and India. Africa and the Indian Subcontinent seem the worse affected, followed by Latin America.
Even if Afghanis suddenly converted en mass to Christianity, it is very likely their traditional marriage practices would persist.
Anyway, I'm getting mired down in silly circular 'conversations' that will lead in the usual directions, and I think it's best that I log out of Dave's and don't return for several weeks.
Ta ta. |
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