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IN THE STFU DEPT. THIS WEEK: Jimmy Carter (again)
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ubermenzch



Joined: 09 Jun 2008
Location: bundang, south korea

PostPosted: Mon Sep 21, 2009 6:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

visitorq wrote:
ubermenzch wrote:
The administration had started off with an "attempt to create a new foreign policy consensus based on ideas of 'global community' and international interdependence, and centered on human rights, came under pressure in 1978, especially in relation to the conflicts in Angola, Zaire and the Horn of Africa." As I have shown, Secretary of State Vance was a strong supporter of this approach, and Vice President Mondale also was partial to it. Brzezinski, as I have shown, represented the main opposition to this approach.

LOL, listen to you. You haven't shown anything of the sort! You haven't even quoted a single word from Brzezinski himself, nor have you even made any attempt to outline Brzezinki's overall agenda (which is far more dynamic than you have any clue about). Brzezinski (who is usually against unilateral action from the US) is no one trick pony - he's been active for decades (still today) and has written fairly complicated books on globalist foreign policy/stategy. Of course you have no idea about any of it.

Most people involved at this level of government tend to be fairly dynamic. I'm glad we agree. Now please apply this to your theory of Jimmy Carter being a puppet.
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visitorq



Joined: 11 Jan 2008

PostPosted: Tue Sep 22, 2009 12:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gopher wrote:
What about the Panamanians and the Costa Ricans' central roles in toppling the Somozas? Not to mention Fidel Castro.

Are you even aware of their participation, the political pressure, the arms sales, etc.? If all you can talk about is the Trilateral Commission, I doubt you know very much at all about Central American affairs, under the Carter administration or any other administration for that matter.

Yeah, seriously what's your point? It's very easy to reconcile the involvement of those other countries with the Trilateralist agenda (which is basically divide and conquer).
The US government is constantly building up petty dictators and supporting revolutionary groups and then tearing them down later (as they did in Nicaragua). The US government sometimes does this even against its own interests. This is all part of keeping these nations poor, divided, indebted and dependent on financial aid from the World Bank and IMF.

I won't say every little thing goes according to plan for the US (as if David Rockefeller, the avowed globalist, were actually loyal to his country) - but it sure seems to work out well for the global banks. Carter surely bungled a lot of things - but this was never a problem for the World Bank.
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visitorq



Joined: 11 Jan 2008

PostPosted: Tue Sep 22, 2009 12:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ubermenzch wrote:
visitorq wrote:
ubermenzch wrote:
The administration had started off with an "attempt to create a new foreign policy consensus based on ideas of 'global community' and international interdependence, and centered on human rights, came under pressure in 1978, especially in relation to the conflicts in Angola, Zaire and the Horn of Africa." As I have shown, Secretary of State Vance was a strong supporter of this approach, and Vice President Mondale also was partial to it. Brzezinski, as I have shown, represented the main opposition to this approach.

LOL, listen to you. You haven't shown anything of the sort! You haven't even quoted a single word from Brzezinski himself, nor have you even made any attempt to outline Brzezinki's overall agenda (which is far more dynamic than you have any clue about). Brzezinski (who is usually against unilateral action from the US) is no one trick pony - he's been active for decades (still today) and has written fairly complicated books on globalist foreign policy/stategy. Of course you have no idea about any of it.

Most people involved at this level of government tend to be fairly dynamic. I'm glad we agree. Now please apply this to your theory of Jimmy Carter being a puppet.

No we don't agree. Because "most people" doesn't apply to Carter. He was basically useless as a president, and did almost nothing right for the US. Of course the global bankers got their way (as always) quite nicely.
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Gopher



Joined: 04 Jun 2005

PostPosted: Tue Sep 22, 2009 1:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The point is that your one-dimensional history cannot account for all of the evidence.

visitorq wrote:
This is all part of keeping these nations poor, divided, indebted and dependent on financial aid from the World Bank and IMF.


Are you even aware that Andre Gunder Frank and his dependency theory started this line of thinking decades ago? Are you also away that Gunder Frank denounced it not only as simplistic but fundamentally flawed before he died?
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visitorq



Joined: 11 Jan 2008

PostPosted: Tue Sep 22, 2009 1:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gopher wrote:
The point is that your one-dimensional history cannot account for all of the evidence.

What evidence? About what? You sure haven't posted much of anything...

Quote:
visitorq wrote:
This is all part of keeping these nations poor, divided, indebted and dependent on financial aid from the World Bank and IMF.


Are you even aware that Andre Gunder Frank and his dependency theory started this line of thinking decades ago? Are you also away that Gunder Frank denounced it not only as simplistic but fundamentally flawed before he died?

Are you even aware that appealing to authority is a weak (and in your case predictable) way to form an argument? I never mentioned Frank (who is just one of many thinkers on world systems theory), and now you're brandying his name around as if you've got something on me.
If you have any specific points of his that you wish to apply to the discussion - then feel free. Merely tossing out names is totally pointless. Be less vague.

Moreover, I'm pretty sure you're just going to misrepresent my position anyway. I'm not talking about "world capitalism" (in the marxist sense), I'm talking about the global banking establishment. Not the same thing.
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bacasper



Joined: 26 Mar 2007

PostPosted: Tue Sep 22, 2009 2:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gopher: What is your assessment of the influence of the Trilateral Commission, and other think tanks, like the Council on Foreign Relations and the Bilderberg Group, on US foreign policy?
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Gopher



Joined: 04 Jun 2005

PostPosted: Tue Sep 22, 2009 5:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

No, Visitorq. You are hurling around a crude, and not to mention obsolete, version of dependency theory -- and not even consciously so.

I doubt you have read much beyond the shrill conspiracy-theory literature one finds on the internet and in the pulp press, perhaps a youtube "documentary" or two.

You sound like Stuart talking about the Colonel in So I Married an Axe Murderer. Good luck in life.
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visitorq



Joined: 11 Jan 2008

PostPosted: Tue Sep 22, 2009 9:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gopher wrote:
No, Visitorq. You are hurling around a crude, and not to mention obsolete, version of dependency theory -- and not even consciously so.

I doubt you have read much beyond the shrill conspiracy-theory literature one finds on the internet and in the pulp press, perhaps a youtube "documentary" or two.

You sound like Stuart talking about the Colonel in So I Married an Axe Murderer. Good luck in life.

Sorry I touched a nerve there gopher Wink - but it's really not my fault that you're too ignorant to understand the difference between the 'world systems theory' of global capitalism (as discussed by A. G. Frank and others) and the global banking establishment. Nor is it my fault that you're basically stuck on first level thinking compensating with arrogance for your lack of understanding.

You can pretend to be "well read" (which it's so obvious you aren't) all you want, and throw out as many ad hominem attacks as you like (at least you're much better at it than ubermenzch), but you're still 100% wrong about me talking about "dependency theory".

It is especially funny to me, since you're the one who brought it up in the first place (without even understanding it).
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ubermenzch



Joined: 09 Jun 2008
Location: bundang, south korea

PostPosted: Tue Sep 22, 2009 10:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I will admit this of visitorq: his posts amuse me a great deal. I have never come across anyone quite as persistent in their efforts to create the impression of knowledge. I feel a sort of pity that he should fail so miserably.
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visitorq



Joined: 11 Jan 2008

PostPosted: Tue Sep 22, 2009 10:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

To clarify:

Dependency theory (similar to Marxism) states that there is a 'world system' of poorer periphery countries and a core of richer countries. The main idea is that the resources and cheap labor of the poor countries are used to enrich the core wealthier countries. The focus is on nation states and their economies.

What I was talking about is the global banking establishment, which is something else altogether. This includes the major commercial banks in the US, as well as the major central banks (in the USA the Federal Reserve is actually privately owned by the commercial banks like Citi and JP Morgan, which are controlled by the Rockefellers) modeled after the Bank of England. These banks (which are controlled by a private elite), using government legal tender laws and the legalized fraud that is fractional reserve banking, run what effectively amounts to a gigantic global ponzi scheme (made up of each of the major fiat currencies, but mainly the US dollar). The focus is on the money supply.

The USA, for example, is both the wealthiest nation on earth - and also the most deeply indebted. This is because the entire monetary system is issued by the private Fed as debt, and all at interest. The bankers therefore effectively control the entire economy, as well as the government (as I've shown to be the case with the Trilateral Commission), all of which is indebted to them.

The same banking establishment which controls the West through permanent indebtedness, also controls the third world by the same means. We are all slaves to the bankers, regardless of whether we live in developed or undeveloped countries. It is the Federal Reserve which has bankrupted the US, and caused the previous Great Depression by turning off the money supply. This is much the same as the IMF and World Bank bankrupting underdeveloped countries by charging exorbitant interest on debt that can never be repaid (often encouraging wars to ensure they go into debt in the first place, and funding both sides, as the global banking establishment did in Europe in WWII).

This is not capitalism. Real capital comes from the real economy, and is allowed to accumulate. The fractional reserve currency of the global banking establishment is nothing more than fraud on an epic scale.
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caniff



Joined: 03 Feb 2004
Location: All over the map

PostPosted: Tue Sep 22, 2009 1:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

visitorq wrote:
The fractional reserve currency of the global banking establishment is nothing more than fraud on an epic scale.


What do you recommend should be done about this?
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visitorq



Joined: 11 Jan 2008

PostPosted: Tue Sep 22, 2009 11:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

caniff wrote:
visitorq wrote:
The fractional reserve currency of the global banking establishment is nothing more than fraud on an epic scale.


What do you recommend should be done about this?

Well what to do is the quadrillion dollar question isn't it...

In the US, abolishing the Fed is the best thing we could do - but in the short term it causes huge problems (effectively leaves us without a money supply). The Fed is like a cancer, and the currency it issues is like a metastasis that has spread throughout our entire system, threatening our very existence. We need to cut it out, but it will be extremely painful (and we may even die in the attempt). But we will die regardless if we do nothing about it.

Eventually the Fed currency should be replaced with a currency issued by the Treasury without interest attached, and at least partially backed by gold. All debt owed to the Fed (including the commercial banks who have racked up over a quadrillion dollars in derivates debt) should eventually be wiped clean. There are many theories as to the best way to go about all this (I'm certainly not the expert - it's just common sense that the Fed needs to go).

On a worldwide level - this is a very difficult challenge. But I'm concerned primarily with the US (it is our currency which is used as the global reserve anyway). The IMF and World Bank could not exist without US support. But a huge part of the banking establishment is based in Europe (where the whole central banking system originated), and many countries have their currencies pegged to the dollar, which will collapse if the dollar goes. But it's all going to inevitably collapse anyway, so it's better to fix it sooner rather than later (it just gets worse over time).

The biggest problem, however, remains the astounding ignorance the general public has towards the monetary system, how it works, and how the bankers control everything through it. Until people wake up and demand change, the government will continue its corruption and work hand in hand with the bankers.
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