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mayorgc

Joined: 19 Oct 2008

Posted: Tue Sep 22, 2009 7:33 pm Post subject:

tiger fancini wrote:

Steelrails wrote:

If you don't like it, don't read it. And don't give it any attention.

Human Rights Charges- Are You Serious? Go tell someone from Darfur that your 'Human Rights' are being abused here because of that article...

Dude at some point you gotta lay down your own beef and look at what other people deal with. Seriously Chill Out. Welcome to being an ethnic minority in a foreign country. Things aren't fair for you. That's life.

Well put. Can't there be a sticky along these sorts of lines?

I'm just gonna play devil's advocate here, but what about slavery in the U.S? would it be fair to say to them "Welcome to being an ethnic minority in a foreign country. Things aren't fair for you. That's life."

i'm not comparing slaves to teachers. just throwing out a hypothetical situation.

Steelrails

Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System

Posted: Tue Sep 22, 2009 8:20 pm Post subject:

Quote:

would it be fair to say to them "Welcome to being an ethnic minority in a foreign country. Things aren't fair for you. That's life."

It would be really cold to say, but it is the truth. Of course the follow up sentence to that is "Life can't be fair, but it can be better. Follow me to the Underground Railroad."

Of course that's for slaves. For English Teachers in Korea, there is not follow up sentence. It really just is "That's life. It ain't fair." Why? Because people here are already at the top. Anyone who thinks that their time here is one of being a racially oppressed refugee insults racially oppressed refugees. At some point your coming across as the rich bratty kid whining because he's forced to take a bath, can't go out past 8, and has to eat his vegetables.

Besides I'd say for a number of people 'not racist' means that the country of Korea should revolve around what makes life best for the foreigner English Teacher.

tiger fancini

Joined: 21 Mar 2006
Location: Testicles for Eyes

Posted: Tue Sep 22, 2009 8:22 pm Post subject:

mayorgc wrote:

tiger fancini wrote:

Steelrails wrote:

Well put. Can't there be a sticky along these sorts of lines?

No, it wouldn't have been fair to say that to slaves in the US. Is this hypothetical situation really relevant here?

TheUrbanMyth

Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired

Posted: Tue Sep 22, 2009 8:23 pm Post subject:

mayorgc wrote:

tiger fancini wrote:

Steelrails wrote:

Well put. Can't there be a sticky along these sorts of lines?

ALL foreign ESL teachers are here VOLUNTARILY. The slaves were brought over by force.

They didn't have a choice, you did.

And if the slaves were given a free apartment with color T.V, A/C and a 2.5 million won salary and moreoever were not beaten, allowed to associate with the local population and were free to leave anytime they wanted...then yes I'd probably tell them that.

As long as you (generic you, not you personally) are free to go, but continue of your own choice to stay here, whining is just silly. YOU choose to "suffer" so deal with it.

If someone came here and said "I keep banging my head against a wall and it hurts. What should I do?" You'd probably say "Stop banging your head then you silly clown."

Of course this being Dave's someone would probably jump in and say "You can't tell him to stop banging his head...people have a right to bang their heads if they wish."

And certainly they do, but why then complain about it?

Last edited by TheUrbanMyth on Tue Sep 22, 2009 8:27 pm; edited 1 time in total

xingyiman

Joined: 12 Jan 2006

Posted: Tue Sep 22, 2009 8:23 pm Post subject:

mayorgc wrote:

tiger fancini wrote:

Steelrails wrote:

Well put. Can't there be a sticky along these sorts of lines?

edit

fermentation

Joined: 22 Jun 2009

Posted: Tue Sep 22, 2009 8:44 pm Post subject:

makemehavefun wrote:

TheUrbanMyth wrote:

I didn't know that foreigners were a race.

I'm half-Foreigner from my father's side. Our ancestors can be traced backed to The Lost City of... and, no, we do not look inferior, damn it.

How can a person be "half-foreigner?" Do you have a half of a citizenship?

mayorgc

Joined: 19 Oct 2008

Posted: Tue Sep 22, 2009 9:38 pm Post subject:

I agree on the points made about slavery. But I still think it's wrong that white guys get attacked because of misleading news stories. Saying "You're a minority, deal with it" might be valid when people are stared at or turned away from restaurants, but not when people are getting attacked by knives.

TheUrbanMyth

Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired

Posted: Tue Sep 22, 2009 10:36 pm Post subject:

mayorgc wrote:

I agree on the points made about slavery. But I still think it's wrong that white guys get attacked because of misleading news stories. Saying "You're a minority, deal with it" might be valid when people are stared at or turned away from restaurants, but not when people are getting attacked by knives.

WITH knives not BY knives.

And that is extremely misleading in its own right. We have one story about a soldier being attacked by a knife-wielding assailant and suddenly it's a concern that white guys may be attacked all over the place? Completely unprovoked attacks on teachers or soldiers here are quite rare. How many soldiers have been attacked AFTER the tank incident died down?

I can think of only one other time it happened and that was when that teacher got stabbed in the arm in the park. But you're not going to sit there and tell me, that the Korean who stabbed him was completely sane or normal are you?

Yes there are "loony tunes" here. No, it's not a major concern/factor in our lives, otherwise ESL teachers would be fleeing to the airport and jumping on planes.

mayorgc

Joined: 19 Oct 2008

Posted: Tue Sep 22, 2009 11:03 pm Post subject:

TheUrbanMyth wrote:

mayorgc wrote:

WITH knives not BY knives.

And that is extremely misleading in its own right. We have one story about a soldier being attacked by a knife-wielding assailant and suddenly it's a concern that white guys may be attacked all over the place? Completely unprovoked attacks on teachers or soldiers here are quite rare. How many soldiers have been attacked AFTER the tank incident died down?

Yes there are "loony tunes" here. No, it's not a major concern/factor in our lives, otherwise ESL teachers would be fleeing to the airport and jumping on planes.

There's 2 stories actually. The GIs getting dragged out of the subway and the Col. getting attacked by 3 guys. All because of the tank incident and the misleading news stories that were basically false. You said that people aren't getting attacked based on news stories, but these two incidents prove otherwise. I wasn't here in 2002, but according to sources other than Dave's, the false news stories angered the Koreans to the point where they attacked 3 GIs on a Subway. I'm not stating that attacks happen all the time, but I'm pointing out that attacks have occured in the past based on false/misleading information.

You're treading into strawman territory. Nobody said that attacks happen all the time or that attacks happened after the anger died down. What was originally stated was that attacks have occured and the attacks were triggered by the false information presented to the public.

Quote:

No a case can not be made...for the very simple reason that people don't decide to beat up another person because they read a newspaper article

That's the issue I'm talking about. You said that violence doesn't occur because of newspaper articles. But it has happened in the past, the 2002 Yangju tank incident is one exmaple.

xingyiman

Joined: 12 Jan 2006

Posted: Tue Sep 22, 2009 11:27 pm Post subject:

mayorgc wrote:

TheUrbanMyth wrote:

mayorgc wrote:

WITH knives not BY knives.

And that is extremely misleading in its own right. We have one story about a soldier being attacked by a knife-wielding assailant and suddenly it's a concern that white guys may be attacked all over the place? Completely unprovoked attacks on teachers or soldiers here are quite rare. How many soldiers have been attacked AFTER the tank incident died down?

Yes there are "loony tunes" here. No, it's not a major concern/factor in our lives, otherwise ESL teachers would be fleeing to the airport and jumping on planes.

Quote:

No a case can not be made...for the very simple reason that people don't decide to beat up another person because they read a newspaper article

That's the issue I'm talking about. You said that violence doesn't occur because of newspaper articles. But it has happened in the past, the 2002 Yangju tank incident is one exmaple.

You might as well try arguing with your washing machine, you'll get about as far. What the bad press does is reinforce negative stereotypes and in the future if something would happen involving an ESL teacher it cold spark random acts of malice toward some of the rest of us.
UL's argument is pretty falicous in that I would bet that if western newspapers began publishing stories calling black people ni&&ers, and constantling stating that they are drug using, sex crazed beasts who just want to shag white chicks that it would in fact have an effect on crimes directed at them from the white communities. Of course there are laws to prevent such slander in America and other western nations. Here there are not.
I remember when the English spectrum thing broke and there were guys who were afraid to go out in Itaewon and Hongdae at night because of the backlash.

Steelrails

Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System

Posted: Tue Sep 22, 2009 11:55 pm Post subject:

Quote:

publishing stories calling black people ni&&ers, and constantling stating that they are drug using, sex crazed beasts who just want to shag white chicks that it would in fact have an effect on crimes directed at them from the white communities.

First off you could very well be describing a rap album.

Yeah, there definitely isn't any of THAT in the U.S. media Rolling Eyes

After all right-wing talk radio NEVER talks about the destructive influence of rap music. But is there 'rampant' violence towards African-Americans in the manner of what you fear will happen here in Korea?

(Of course you could argue in a sense that certain criminal justice policies that disproportionately target African-Americans are in a sense a response to the media and journalism, indeed even a violent one)

I agree that if the situation TRULY was dangerous people would be leaving.

Once again WDS- Waygookin Derangement Syndrome- OMG the Whole nation of Korea is out to get us. The latest racist Korea Times article will lead to lynchings and beatings. Just like the last 1000 have.

Quote:

I remember when the English spectrum thing broke and there were guys who were afraid to go out in Itaewon and Hongdae at night because of the backlash

And what happened? Nothing. Did you know that there are Koreans that are afraid to go out to Itaewon because the G.I.s tend to want to flex their muscle against the locals? But really what do Itaewon and Hongdae have in common? Alcohol and Testosterone.

Quote:

But I still think it's wrong that white guys get attacked because of misleading news stories. Saying "You're a minority, deal with it" might be valid when people are stared at or turned away from restaurants, but not when people are getting attacked by knives.

Of course, but are those attacks part of the inherent cosmic risk that comes with belonging to ANY race and the chance that some racist looney bin may attack you. A handful of incidents a year is not significant because racist attacks by white people on Koreans are probably at the same negligible level. Just as attacks by Koreans are getting blown out of proportion here on Dave's and causing people to call 'Racism' so too are statistically insignificant attacks by foreigners causing Korea Times to claim "Dangerous Foreigners".

makemehavefun

Joined: 12 Sep 2009

Posted: Wed Sep 23, 2009 12:27 am Post subject:

fermentation wrote:

makemehavefun wrote:

TheUrbanMyth wrote:

I didn't know that foreigners were a race.

I'm half-Foreigner from my father's side. Our ancestors can be traced backed to The Lost City of... and, no, we do not look inferior, damn it.

How can a person be "half-foreigner?" Do you have a half of a citizenship?

I have full citizenship. I'm just not 100% Foreigner.

ESL Milk "Everyday

Joined: 12 Sep 2007

Posted: Wed Sep 23, 2009 1:08 am Post subject:

TheUrbanMyth wrote:

Yes, a critical and investigating mindset is a terrible fate to have if you are on Dave's. Much easier just to go along with the mindless Korean-bashing.

Is that what you call it?

I was under the impression that 'critical and investigating' means that you're willing to approach every situation objectively. All that you ever do is attack people who suggest that perhaps Korea has some racism in it.

Or when it appears that foreigners have been slandered yet again, you without fail either agree with the media, or dust off your old 'it's no different from back home' argument. Failing that, you find some off-hand comment made in the context of the thread and get all hyper-sensitive about it, as if that tiny off-hand comment is somehow much worse than a whole newspaper dedicated to making Koreans afraid of the rest of the world. Always, always, always you shift the blame to foreigners.

I suppose that you're putting heaps of independent research, surveying and field work into your 'critical and investigating' perspective???

Steelrails

Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System

Posted: Wed Sep 23, 2009 2:22 am Post subject:

Quote:

means that you're willing to approach every situation objectively. All that you ever do is attack people who suggest that perhaps Korea has some racism in it

I believe that the key to objectivity is to regard people as individuals. This is a mistake people on both sides make. The 'All Foreigners are Rapists' and the 'Koreans are Racists' people are both lacking in this objectivity.

Just as those insisting that Koreans should 'acknowledge their dirt' so too should members of the foreign community acknowledge that the behavior of some in the past has understandably, although not justifiably, tainted the community's perception of foreigners. Trying to say 'But you started it' or 'your racism is worse' gets people nowhere. Similarly glossing over the follies of one's native society in an attempt to put down another's (again, both sides) does not promote feelings of goodwill. There is a world of difference between acknowledging upfront the fault's of one's own native land and then commenting on the fault of another culture and going out and criticizing another culture and then retroactively acknowledging one's native culture's own faults after it has been brought up. The differences in tone ARE significant.

There is an old saying "Before you try to remove a speck of dust from your neighbor's eye, take care to see about the plank in your own."

However the most important part of remaining objective and critically thinking is to remark on positive events, search for areas of common ground, attempt to build understanding, find ways to accept each other's culture, forgive each other's mistakes, and to just go out and be a good, decent person day after day, even if it sometimes means you get tread on a little.

ESL Milk "Everyday

Joined: 12 Sep 2007

Posted: Wed Sep 23, 2009 4:22 am Post subject:

Steelrails wrote:

I agree with this.

On the other hand, I don't think there can be any doubt that The Korea Times is a sensationalistic, fear-mongering rag-- and whenever I hear people here (usually UrbanMyth) saying that what they're saying is 'true', it sounds like they're defending its 'right' to report on crimes by foreigners in a grossly unequal proportion to crimes by the locals.

I could EASILY start up a newspaper focusing solely on the amount of businessmen I see going to hookers, or delivery people putting lives at risk by running red lights, or public urination, or illegally eating dogs... and have enough material to keep going for years. Every week, I could show a new person urinating on the street! And I could go to a country that knows nothing about Koreans, and say that this is what Korea is all about. That would be fair, apparently.

The point isn't whether or not foreigners are doing these things, the point is that selective reporting is often just as bad as, if not worse than outright lying. No, actually it is definitely worse.

Most of the crimes by foreigners are benign. Korea does NOT have a drug problem because every now and then a few foreigners get high. So how is this newsworthy? Hookers are everywhere, but they mostly sleep with Koreans. How is a few foreigners going to hookers newsworthy? Etc., etc., etc.

AIDS is spreading without foreigners being involved. And yet, this 'newspaper' is actively seeking to not only cover up the truth of that, but to pin the blame elsewhere so that the solution will seem simple. Not only is this racist, it's also a reckless denial of some very real problems that exist, and exist outside the foreign community.

EVERY SINGLE TIME there's an article like this, it @#$%es me off, because all that it does is drive a wedge between the locals and the immigrants. It means that more people are looking at ME and wondering what sort of sordid debauchery I get myself into on the weekends. THIS is the exact reason that living in Korea is so hard-- because @#$% like this forces us to be constantly on the defensive, and corrupts the minds of otherwise decent Korean citizens. THIS is where the English teacher reputation came from, not from real English teachers, and not from a few people who would have otherwise just been ignored. It came from HERE.

On Dave's, what always happens in these cases is people get distracted and start arguing this and arguing that until they lose sight of the fact that this isn't about Korea versus the foreigners, it's about the Korean MEDIA, and its slanted, biased, socially retarded views-- as always, a byproduct of society's never-ending thirst for sensationalism, conflict and self-righteousness.

These people truly are the scum of the earth.

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