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Do you think a North Korean attack can succeed?
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Can the Norks successfully conquer the ROK?
Yes, they can.
17%
 17%  [ 12 ]
No, they will be driven back.
36%
 36%  [ 25 ]
No, South Korea and the US is more likely to conquer them than they us.
46%
 46%  [ 32 ]
Total Votes : 69

Author Message
fermentation



Joined: 22 Jun 2009

PostPosted: Wed Sep 23, 2009 11:43 pm    Post subject: Do you think a North Korean attack can succeed? Reply with quote

I like to study military history and tactics for fun, and as a citizen of South Korea who has to "contribute" to the defense of my nation agains the Norks, I like to think about how a new Korean War would play out. I think it will be a fun discussion for military history fans or people with knowledge of battlefield strategy/tactics.

So if North Korea uses military means to conquer South Korea, will they succeed?

My short answer is no because North Korea can only think of succeeding if they use a blitzkrieg type assault to quickly overwhelm ROK and US forces before reinforcements from the US arrive (the US promises to send 690,000 men if South Korea is ever attacked) and in a prolonged war, the Norks cannot hope to compete with the industrial capacity and larger population of the South.

Even if they do succeed, the US and other allies will likely try to take back South Korea and bomb the North into oblivion. But I don't think that will matter because they won't come close to taking over the entire peninsula in the first place.
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smartwentcrazy



Joined: 26 Feb 2009

PostPosted: Wed Sep 23, 2009 11:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A contemporary showdown between the North and South would not mimic the conventional style of warfare seen during WWII or the Korean War. With today's technology and weaponry, the North would be hard-pressed to even cross the 38th parallel. Satellite imaging, long range missile technology, 24-hour nuclear submarines, etc. would neutralize/discourage any conventional means of attack by the North. Not saying that it wouldn't happen, I'm just suggesting it would be highly unlikely given the amount of casualties the North would surely sustain under the current modes of warfare. The US/ROK would see the mobilization of Northern forces before they could mount any 'surprise' attack onto the South, giving ample amount of time for counter-measures.
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5600



Joined: 07 Apr 2008
Location: At an undisclosed FEMA camp.

PostPosted: Thu Sep 24, 2009 12:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sure, to an extent. They have an assortment of missles aimed at Seoul and if only one made it through the anti-missle defense network that the ROK/US military have then it would do some damage. There are a significant number of N.K. "commandos" in the vicinity of the DMZ area near Panmunjon that are capable of causing a bit of aggravation to the boys at the DMZ. However, the thing is they do not have the resources to sustain any lengthy attack. I do not think the will of the people will alone do the trick. The infrastructure of the north isn't up to speed. Their equiptment isn't state-of the-art. Plus the guy on the ground isn't in the best of moods either.

http://www.state.gov/r/pa/ei/bgn/2792.htm#defense

http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/dprk/missile/index.html
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storysinger81



Joined: 25 Mar 2007
Location: Daegu

PostPosted: Thu Sep 24, 2009 12:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Succeed at what? They wouldn't win a war, but they could cause a crapload of damage by trying the blitzkreig style assault. It would be horrible.
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hellofaniceguy



Joined: 10 Jan 2003
Location: On your computer screen!

PostPosted: Thu Sep 24, 2009 12:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I voted yes...the north would obviously get a jump on the south and would be strong at the start...they have a million man army! Even a half million soldiers marching on Seoul could not be stopped at the start of a war. It would take the US a few weeks to build up their defenses to a good level...but...if the north starts moving man power toward the DMZ...the south would known that something is up but they don't have enough man power to repel an initial attack. Now, if China helps the north like they did before....the south is gone and the US could do nothing unless the world allies help.
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smartwentcrazy



Joined: 26 Feb 2009

PostPosted: Thu Sep 24, 2009 1:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

hellofaniceguy wrote:
I voted yes...the north would obviously get a jump on the south and would be strong at the start...they have a million man army! Even a half million soldiers marching on Seoul could not be stopped at the start of a war. It would take the US a few weeks to build up their defenses to a good level...but...if the north starts moving man power toward the DMZ...the south would known that something is up but they don't have enough man power to repel an initial attack. Now, if China helps the north like they did before....the south is gone and the US could do nothing unless the world allies help.


You think that 'million man army' won't get noticed by the advanced detection measures the US/ROK have implemented since the Korean War (satellites, probes, UAVs, radar, etc.)? You would think the U.S. learned a thing or two from the Korean War. Once the mobilization is detected by the military, the gig is up. It will be nothing like the Korean War if that's what you're alluding to. This day and age sheer manpower =/= victory. The amount of technology/weaponry that evolved since the Korean War has negated any advantage that manpower can make up for. A conventional style of warfare is useless against the modern weaponry that exists today.

There's a reason why we have nuclear subs patrolling the waters 24 hours a day to ensure any 'blitzkrieg' style of offensive would be swiftly put down, not necessarily by nuclear measures, but by long range ballistic missiles. Compare how long it takes to mobilize a force of a million from North Korea to attack South Korea. Now compare how long it takes for an ICBM (namely the LGM-30 Minutemen) to hit their targets from missile silos positioned in South Korea and across the world. I'll give you a hint: the ICBM's are faster. The North Koreans know if they attempt a massive wave of assault against the South, the U.S. and it's allies will retaliate not only with soldiers, but with a push of a button. The North may cross the 38th parallel, but will do so at devastating costs. As for the Chinese this isn't the Cold War era - the Chinese wouldn't even consider helping the North with an invasion. If anything, the Chinese would dissuade the North from plotting such an invasion because of the very aforementioned factors that were described. Their last chance was during the Korean War, they won't get another shot with the amount of firepower the U.S. possesses.
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fermentation



Joined: 22 Jun 2009

PostPosted: Thu Sep 24, 2009 1:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

hellofaniceguy wrote:
I voted yes...the north would obviously get a jump on the south and would be strong at the start...they have a million man army! Even a half million soldiers marching on Seoul could not be stopped at the start of a war. It would take the US a few weeks to build up their defenses to a good level...but...if the north starts moving man power toward the DMZ...the south would known that something is up but they don't have enough man power to repel an initial attack. Now, if China helps the north like they did before....the south is gone and the US could do nothing unless the world allies help.


While I think taking Seoul is possible for the North but very difficult, but I'm talking about conquering the peninsula. Taking Seoul won't be enough to win the war.

Numbers is only one factor of military operations and other than that, almost every other possible military factor is on our side. The Norks have close to a million but the ROK also has close to 600,000 men along with 30,000 American troops in Korea. You also have to factor in the US Marines in Okinawa who will be able to deploy quickly and the USAF units stationed in Japan and maybe even the Japanese aircraft that are in range of Korea.

In a blitzkrieg assault, the most important material you need are first tanks, and second, the supporting elements that can keep up with the tanks to maintain support. The Norks have more tanks than the South, but the quality of their tanks are in nowhere in comparison to the South and Korean terrain itself is not very conducive to fast offensives, particularly using armor. Tanks need roads or at least flat ground and Korea is filled with hills and mountains. This means the roads leading down can be turned into choke points. Choke points can used to great advantage by defending forces.

North Korean forces consist mostly of infantry, and most of them are not even motorized infantry, they're guys who have to walk on foot. They can't advance fast enough. So based on this, I think the ROK and US holds them off until US reinforcements arrive. Of course there are still many more factors to consider.

Do you think with our current political situation China and Russia would become involved as much as they did back in the 1950s, if at all? I'm no expert on international politics, but the situation for the Chinese was very different back in the 50s.

Quote:
Succeed at what? They wouldn't win a war, but they could cause a crapload of damage by trying the blitzkreig style assault. It would be horrible.


Succeed at conquering the South. This isn't a debate about whether or not there will be death and damage (it is a war afterall), and blitzkreig assaults are actually designed to minimize damage and casualties by brining a fast end to the war. Prolonged wars of attrition are what cause horrible damage and numerous casualties.
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Mr. Pink



Joined: 21 Oct 2003
Location: China

PostPosted: Thu Sep 24, 2009 1:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Interesting discussion.

I don't think the North would try to invade. There are the reasons posted above. The technological might of the US is just too great at the moment. I think 1mil men can do some damage, but it sort of reminds me of the old fighting style of the 19th century going against modern machine guns at the beginning of WWI. There was no way to compete with those guns in the old fighting fashion. Having an army of 1 million people isn't necessary in today's technological world.

Hell, the US could send a bunch of drones in and take down a big chuck of that army...
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Xuanzang



Joined: 10 Apr 2007
Location: Sadang

PostPosted: Thu Sep 24, 2009 1:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There`s always the half joke that the Northerners would smell samgyopsal and all the meat and just surrender. I could see defections en masse happening.
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fermentation



Joined: 22 Jun 2009

PostPosted: Thu Sep 24, 2009 1:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

smartwentcrazy wrote:

You think that 'million man army' won't get noticed by the advanced detection measures the US/ROK have implemented since the Korean War (satellites, probes, UAVs, radar, etc.)? You would think the U.S. learned a thing or two from the Korean War. Once the mobilization is detected by the military, the gig is up. It will be nothing like the Korean War if that's what you're alluding to. This day and age sheer manpower =/= victory. The amount of technology/weaponry that evolved since the Korean War has negated any advantage that manpower can make up for. A conventional style of warfare is useless against the modern weaponry that exists today.


The US does have a much more advanced early warning system and will likely pick up on an attack involving a million men. The thing about numbers in modern warfare is that the true strength of quantity lies in firepower, not number of men. Even if you have a million guys, you will have smaller quantity of force than half a guys with guns that can shoot more, shoot better, and shoot farther. American troops have far superior firepower than both Nork and ROK troops.

By the way, I always thought of conventional warfare as warfare that doesn't involve "unconventional" methods such as guerillas, and WMDs such as nuclear, biological or chemical weapons. To my knowledge, technology doesn't dictate if an operation is "conventional" or not.

Quote:
Sure, to an extent. They have an assortment of missles aimed at Seoul and if only one made it through the anti-missle defense network that the ROK/US military have then it would do some damage. There are a significant number of N.K. "commandos" in the vicinity of the DMZ area near Panmunjon that are capable of causing a bit of aggravation to the boys at the DMZ. However, the thing is they do not have the resources to sustain any lengthy attack. I do not think the will of the people will alone do the trick. The infrastructure of the north isn't up to speed. Their equiptment isn't state-of the-art. Plus the guy on the ground isn't in the best of moods either.


They have thousands of artillery batteries pointed at Seoul right now, so unless our Air Force boys and counter batteries can't react fast enough, they can level Seoul. As for their commandos, its doubtable that have the numbers and the means to insert special operation units with sufficient numbers to make a significant impact on the war as a whole. I highly doubt the NK troops can make it past the Han river even if they take the northern half of Seoul.
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fermentation



Joined: 22 Jun 2009

PostPosted: Thu Sep 24, 2009 2:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mr. Pink wrote:
Interesting discussion.

I don't think the North would try to invade. There are the reasons posted above. The technological might of the US is just too great at the moment. I think 1mil men can do some damage, but it sort of reminds me of the old fighting style of the 19th century going against modern machine guns at the beginning of WWI. There was no way to compete with those guns in the old fighting fashion. Having an army of 1 million people isn't necessary in today's technological world.

Hell, the US could send a bunch of drones in and take down a big chuck of that army...


Yeah this is a hypothetical as I don't think the Norks are stupid enough to start a war that they have no chance of really winning.

People here are talking about the technological difference between the US and NK, but in the beginning stages of the War, its unlikely the Norks will face the bulk of American techological power. However, I believe the ROK is also superior in technology in many facets of its military force. In fact, I believe the ROK can beat the Norks without American troops on the ground.
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Privateer



Joined: 31 Aug 2005
Location: Easy Street.

PostPosted: Thu Sep 24, 2009 2:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

No, they can't win, but they can certainly fry all of us living in Seoul.
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Steelrails



Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System

PostPosted: Thu Sep 24, 2009 2:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

storysinger81 wrote:
Succeed at what? They wouldn't win a war, but they could cause a crapload of damage by trying the blitzkreig style assault. It would be horrible.


But in order to do a blitzkrieg assault you need to position your forces. The only time blitzkrieg works is when the opposition does not have satellite imaging- See Gulf War I, India v. East Pakistan, Germany 1939-41

Quote:
.they have a million man army!


So did Saddam.

Besides not all of them are infantry. A large percentage are support personnel. There is a limit to the amount of soldiers you can put in an area and have them not interfere with each other. There is also the matter of feeding and suppling them and them moving over the terrain.

Quote:
They have thousands of artillery batteries pointed at Seoul right now, so unless our Air Force boys and counter batteries can't react fast enough, they can level Seoul


Never put too much faith in artillery or bombardments. The artillery bombardment, while certainly powerful, would not be devastating.

There is an important factor to remember that everyone is forgetting. We have to consider how things look from the enemy's perspective.

KJI can't use all of his artillery and ammunition because he has to save some to repel the inevitable counter-attack. He also can't use all of his pieces because he has to keep reserves.

He also can't bring the full weight of his million man army to bear because he would have to keep troops on the coasts to prevent another Inchon. He would have to keep troops on the Chinese border to deal with refugees and make sure China doesn't swoop in to put the whole thing down. And he has to keep troops in the interior to deal with any domestic unrest. Not to mention the logistical strain keeping an army of 1,000,000 + reserves active on wartime footing while being constantly bombed, this with the small, starving population of 27,000,000.

Meanwhile I'm sure the bugger is terrified of countless things on the South Korean side of the border- like I don't know say, the ROK Forces (Better than his) plus the U.S. 5th and 7th Air Force and the U.S. 3rd and 7th Fleets. I mean aside from those 'minor details' I'm sure Kim Jong Il is viewing South Korea as ripe for the picking.
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fermentation



Joined: 22 Jun 2009

PostPosted: Thu Sep 24, 2009 2:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Never put too much faith in artillery or bombardments. The artillery bombardment, while certainly powerful, would not be devastating


According to a US general (forgot his name) the Norks can fire up to 500,000 rounds per hour on Seoul with the batteries they got pointed here right now. That's not counting the long range missle systems and air strikes. That can do some damage to the city; civilian casualties and infastructure damage will have to be expected. But of course I think those batteries will quickly fall victim to our air power before too much damage is done and the Norks have to allocate some of them to support advancing troops. As for their ground attack aircraft, even if they succeed in delivering their ordinance, they're not returning home once our fighters are in the air.

Good point on the logistics. Kim has almost the twice the number of troops without the infastructure, vehicles, or resources to supply them. And as the attacking force, they have the disadvantage of having to send supplies into foreign territory across the DMZ, which is a hilly, roadless peice of land filled with trees. Even if they get past the initial defenses and even Seoul, their advance will become increasingly slower as supply lines become longer.
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Mr. Pink



Joined: 21 Oct 2003
Location: China

PostPosted: Thu Sep 24, 2009 3:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Another good point is this: NK could not sustain a long battle due to the fact that its oil is imported. I would argue this was one reason that Japan lost WWII to the Americans. If America wasn't interfering with Japan's oil supply, Japan would have had no reason to bomb Pearl Harbor, and thus would not have gotten American into their war.

NK needs oil to run their war machine. No oil=no air support or armored support for all those men.

Another point would be food. Any army needs to eat, and the North is pretty punctual in its famines and need for international food aid.

I agree with a poster above, I could see many of the soldiers coming across and defecting enmass. Once they smell the meat and see the hot Korean women walking the streets of Seoul it would be game over.
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