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RufusW
Joined: 14 Jun 2008
Location: Busan
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 Posted: Thu Sep 24, 2009 7:16 am Post subject: |
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| mises wrote: |
[European] life has become so bloody expensive by the state taking the role of mommy that they have to work their fingers to the bone and haven't the time/capital left over to add another mouth to the bills.
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You're Canadian right? Regardless, if you think Europeans work more than Americans you're deluded - compulsary holiday anyone? |
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RufusW
Joined: 14 Jun 2008
Location: Busan
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| Posted: Thu Sep 24, 2009 7:21 am Post subject: |
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| mises wrote: |
| Cause they get more assistance? Even in the US (though less after Clinton) more babies = more free money! |
Yea, the same way people in Africa or Bangladesh have more children than Europeans because they can get more government assistance....errr...oh wait.... there might be other factors... More developed countries (people) have less babies - deal with it Mises. |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Thu Sep 24, 2009 7:22 am Post subject: |
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| mises wrote: |
| Fox wrote: |
| mises wrote: |
| Hey, if Europe is such a paradise of civilization and such why have they decided to cleanse themselves from the earth by not reproducing? |
Probably because they're too happy to want to have 4+ children. |
So, they are selfish? Don't want to share the fun? |
I think very few people have children in order to "share the fun." If you're happy with your life, you're less inclined to try to change it. Having children is a major change.
| mises wrote: |
| Quote: |
It's no shocker that poor, desparate people are the ones most prone to having large families. |
Cause they get more assistance? Even in the US (though less after Clinton) more babies = more free money! |
Again, I think comparatively few people have children for this reason. In particular, this rationale fails to explain why couples in the first world, where such assistance is availible, are having fewer children than couples in the third world, where it is not.
Last edited by Fox on Thu Sep 24, 2009 7:24 am; edited 1 time in total |
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visitorq
Joined: 11 Jan 2008
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| Posted: Thu Sep 24, 2009 7:23 am Post subject: |
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| RufusW wrote: |
| mises wrote: |
| Hey, if Europe is such a paradise of civilization and such why have they decided to cleanse themselves from the earth by not reproducing?...I'll not accept any Euro criticism of anything any longer. When you people decide to demonstrate that your way is the best by your actions I'll take you seriously. Until then, no. |
Oh, gawd you sound weird.
Ummm... I think we don't reproduce so much because we don't want to. 'Cleanse' themselves - wow, good way to sound like a weirdo.
We demonstate our way is best because we live it and we won't leave it. The British will never vote againt the NHS because we believe in society.... whereas the majority of Americans seem to vote for kicking themselves in the ass for the sake of individualism. Need I mention the fact we've got similar life expectancy while spending 6% less GDP? Quality of life? Americans - look elsewhere. |
Yeah, cuz the prospect of moving to the UK to live on welfare and spend for 3 generations to pay off a crummy flat makes it all worthwhile 
There's a reason you've got such good rock bands: life in the UK is the pits.
Not to mention you're still under her majesty's thumb (how progressive)... Time to get over yourself now. |
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RufusW
Joined: 14 Jun 2008
Location: Busan
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| Posted: Thu Sep 24, 2009 7:29 am Post subject: |
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| visitorq wrote: |
| Yeah, cuz the prospect of moving to the UK to live on welfare and spend for 3 generations to pay off crummy flat makes it all worthwhile |
Who?
You think immigrants don't work for a living? Have you ever actually been to the UK? More importantly, have you ever been to Birmingham, or Manchester?
Visitorq - you're becoming a joke on this board.
| visitorq wrote: |
| There's a reason you've got such good rock bands: life in the UK is the pits. |
I'll take that - American rock music sucks.
| visitorq wrote: |
| Not to mention you're still under her majesty's thumb (how progressive)... Time to get over yourself now. |
Ummm...... Do you think the Queen actually has any power? Do you know what a titular head is?
Last edited by RufusW on Thu Sep 24, 2009 8:33 am; edited 3 times in total |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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| Posted: Thu Sep 24, 2009 7:43 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| Ummm... I think we don't reproduce so much because we don't want to. 'Cleanse' themselves - wow, good way to sound like a weirdo. |
Meh. It is true. The Europeans have decided that they're not going to continue their own. That is what is weird. A 1.3 birthrate in Italy and Spain is weird.
Anyways, like all else, I can wait. Like in Canada and the US, the baby boomers will take down the welfare systems in Europe. That which isn't sustainable...
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| We demonstate our way is best because we live it and we won't leave it. |
British emigration is high and increasing.
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| The British will never vote againt the NHS because we believe in society.... whereas the majority of Americans seem to vote for kicking themselves in the ass for the sake of individualism. |
Oh, by the way, there was an election in the US recently. Maybe you heard of this chap Obama who won largely on a platform of reforming the medical system.
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| Need I mention the fact we've got similar life expectancy while spending 6% less GDP? Quality of life? Americans - look elsewhere. |
I, like Milton Friedman, have noticed that British, Swedes, Germans and others who live in the US also have long lifespans.
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| Yea, the same way people in Africa or Bangladesh have more children than Europeans because they can get more government assistance....errr...oh wait.... there might be other factors... More developed countries (people) have less babies - deal with it Mises. |
Ha. Bangladesh. Great comparison. Can they even spell birth control? That wealth is correlated with fewer children is true. And that is a good thing. Africa and your little pet Bangladesh will be poor forever because of all those babies. But a birthrate of 1.2 or 1.5 or whatever is on the other end.
| Quote: |
| Again, I think comparatively few people have children for this reason. In particular, this rationale fails to explain why couples in the first world, where such assistance is availible, are having fewer children than couples in the third world, where it is not. |
You do understand that the "third world" is different from us (for the time being) right? I guess when Sweden is sufficiently Somali and Iraqi they'll have sustainable birth rates.
I don't think you (Fox and Rufus) have held down normal gigs yet, right? I don't say this to be a *beep*. A dual middle income situation generally comes after Korea, or at least it did for me. Do either of you have any idea how expensive life is? Fox, would you put your kids in a crappy school in the US? No, you're not dumb. 2 kids in a private school will be at least 24k/yr. Plus plus plus. Life is expensive. Everything is expensive. And my household's largest expense every single month is taxes. Taxes taxes taxes.
I don't have the time or energy to carry on further. Europe is the past, America and the colonies are the present and East Asia is the future. The peanut gallery is dying. |
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RufusW
Joined: 14 Jun 2008
Location: Busan
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| Posted: Thu Sep 24, 2009 8:03 am Post subject: |
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| mises wrote: |
| Europeans have decided that they're not going to continue their own. That is what is weird. A 1.3 birthrate in Italy and Spain is weird. |
BECAUSE WE DON'T WANT TO!!!!
How hard is this to get into your head? Europeans don't want to have babies.... what are you going to do about this? Force us to have kids?? We've decided this because we're developed nations - developed nations have a maximum population (google it).
| mises wrote: |
| Like in Canada and the US, the baby boomers will take down the welfare systems in Europe. That which isn't sustainable... |
Maybe the welfare system isn't sustainable, but the EU doesn't have a massive GDP debt compared to the U.S. We're comparable - so why not keep it going...
| mises wrote: |
| British emigration is high and increasing. |
So? We believe humans are equal regardless of their background/skin colour.
| mises wrote: |
| Oh, by the way, there was an election in the US recently. Maybe you heard of this chap Obama who won largely on a platform of reforming the medical system. |
And why can't he get it done? Corporate capture of the political system.
| mises wrote: |
| I, like Milton Friedman, have noticed that British, Swedes, Germans and others who live in the US also have long lifespans. |
Yea, 'cos we're rich. Durrr.... hurfle durfle.
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Mises, you obviously made the case that higher birth rates were due to government subsidies. Lower incomes produce higher birthrates, Bangladesh was an obvious example.
| mises wrote: |
| You do understand that the "third world" is different from us (for the time being) right? I guess when Sweden is sufficiently Somali and Iraqi they'll have sustainable birth rates. |
Maybe they will, as I said, regardless of background a human is a human... I don't care if they're Iraqi or whatever. Come to our country and enjoy it... you'll subscribe to norms soon enough...
| mises wrote: |
| I don't think you (Fox and Rufus) have held down normal gigs yet, right? |
Mises, you're an idiot.
| mises wrote: |
Fox, would you put your kids in a crappy school in the US? No, you're not dumb. 2 kids in a private school will be at least 24k/yr. Plus plus plus. Life is expensive. Everything is expensive. And my household's largest expense every single month is taxes. Taxes taxes taxes.
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I went to public school in the UK - technically the worst in the city/3. It was as good as I could have expected - I went to a very good University. Exactly what do I have to complain about?
| mises wrote: |
| America and the colonies are the present and East Asia is the future. |
Lol'd hard... exactly the opposite of my view - America represents the past.. degenerate social welfare... bad democracy, corporate capture... terrible media. Certainly Asia represents the future... but you think Chinese communism will ignore universal healthcare?.... still lolling hard. |
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visitorq
Joined: 11 Jan 2008
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| Posted: Thu Sep 24, 2009 8:57 am Post subject: |
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| RufusW wrote: |
| visitorq wrote: |
| Yeah, cuz the prospect of moving to the UK to live on welfare and spend for 3 generations to pay off crummy flat makes it all worthwhile |
Who?
You think immigrants don't work for a living? Have you ever actually been to the UK? More importantly, have you ever been to Birmingham, or Manchester? Visitorq - you're becoming a joke on this board. |
I'm a joke? I seem to recall having whooped you in every debate we've had so far. I'm guessing this time will be no exception.
Anyway, the point is that many immigrants actually come to the UK for state benefits they can receive after staying for awhile, and they also have the highest rate of unemployment by far. But at the same time, enough of them actually do work to drive wages down (since they only work the crap jobs that English people don't want). They're basically taking over your country. We have a similar problem in the US. But then you don't hear me bragging about it.
"Unemployment among ethnic minority communities is twice the rate of white workers, the TUC has said."
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/4655193.stm
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| visitorq wrote: |
| There's a reason you've got such good rock bands: life in the UK is the pits. |
I'll take that - American rock music sucks. |
Wow, even most British bands would strongly disagree with you on that point (seeing how rock music is American). But then it's obvious you've got no taste...
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| visitorq wrote: |
| Not to mention you're still under her majesty's thumb (how progressive)... Time to get over yourself now. |
Ummm...... Do you think the Queen actually has any power? Do you know what a titular head is? |
Yeah, do you know what reality is? The monarchy has a massive stake in your corrupt little country, both politically and economically. Last I checked the richest man in England was a member of the royal family. |
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daskalos
Joined: 19 May 2006
Location: The Road to Ithaca
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| Posted: Thu Sep 24, 2009 9:30 am Post subject: |
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No. Quite simply, it's that the more educated people are, the fewer chidlren they have, by and large. This is true across cultures and eras.
| mises wrote: |
| Fox wrote: |
| mises wrote: |
| Hey, if Europe is such a paradise of civilization and such why have they decided to cleanse themselves from the earth by not reproducing? |
Probably because they're too happy to want to have 4+ children. |
So, they are selfish? Don't want to share the fun?
Or, life has become so bloody expensive by the state taking the role of mommy that they have to work their fingers to the bone and haven't the time/capital left over to add another mouth to the bills.
| Quote: |
It's no shocker that poor, desparate people are the ones most prone to having large families. |
Cause they get more assistance? Even in the US (though less after Clinton) more babies = more free money! |
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RufusW
Joined: 14 Jun 2008
Location: Busan
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| Posted: Thu Sep 24, 2009 9:32 am Post subject: |
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| visitorq wrote: |
| I'm a joke? I seem to recall having whooped you in every debate we've had so far. I'm guessing this time will be no exception. |
Fightin' talk!! ... but you're still a joke ... at least within normal thinking people's parameters....sorry.
Source for your: "whooped you"?
| visitorq wrote: |
| many immigrants actually come to the UK for state benefits they can receive after staying for awhile, and they also have the highest rate of unemployment by far. |
But we still manage as good healthcare at a far lower cost....
Yes migrants come for a better life - we invited them here 50 years ago to help out economy, and we're still willing to let them come. America is in denial - they think immigrants are useless...... oh dear..!
| visitorq wrote: |
| They're basically taking over your country. We have a similar problem in the US. But then you don't hear me bragging about it. |
Because you believe your own hype and you're scared of it - you're paranoid. White British people aren't going to get outnumbered anytime soon, we're happy to let immigrants in to resupply the workforce. You're scared they'll nick your job :)
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| Unemployment among ethnic minority communities is twice the rate of white workers |
To be expected.
| visitorq wrote: |
| it's obvious you've got no taste... |
Oasis, Led Zeppelin, The Beatles, Radiohead... can America beat them..errrr......
visitorq - you need to learn to shut up.
| visitorq wrote: |
| Yeah, do you know what reality is? The monarchy has a massive stake in your corrupt little country, both politically and economically. Last I checked the richest man in England was a member of the royal family. |
LOL hard... what % do you think the monarchy is of the UK economy? You made the initial point like the Queen decided on economic issues... now you're retreating to say 'they're rich'.... you're sooo weak. You're hardly worth responding to visitorq.... sorry.
Literally you're about 2 posts away from a meme visitorq (yes, that's a joke in internet terms)
Last edited by RufusW on Thu Sep 24, 2009 9:44 am; edited 4 times in total |
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daskalos
Joined: 19 May 2006
Location: The Road to Ithaca
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| Posted: Thu Sep 24, 2009 9:37 am Post subject: |
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Everyone seems to have drunk the kool-aid on this, at least every American I've talked to.
The fact that the casino approach to healthcare seems to be what we're up against, and that this model is entrenched in US life, doesn't make this model any more rational or right. A third of every dollar spent on healthcare in the US pays the salary of a parasite. Let's liberate the parasites and allow them the opportunity of becoming actually productive people.
Single payer is the only moral choice available. |
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visitorq
Joined: 11 Jan 2008
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| Posted: Thu Sep 24, 2009 10:59 am Post subject: |
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| RufusW wrote: |
| visitorq wrote: |
| I'm a joke? I seem to recall having whooped you in every debate we've had so far. I'm guessing this time will be no exception. |
Fightin' talk!! ... but you're still a joke ... at least within normal thinking people's parameters....sorry. |
Oh no, not "normal people"...
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| Source for your: "whooped you"? |
Every thread I've been involved with you in. Like the one where you were too dumb to know what the word "nationalization" means. I think there was another where you didn't know the difference between "the Fed" and "the feds"  very funny stuff.
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| visitorq wrote: |
| many immigrants actually come to the UK for state benefits they can receive after staying for awhile, and they also have the highest rate of unemployment by far. |
But we still manage as good healthcare at a far lower cost....
Yes migrants come for a better life - we invited them here 50 years ago to help out economy, and we're still willing to let them come. America is in denial - they think immigrants are useless...... oh dear..! |
And yet your health care is inferior to ours. We have better technology, better hospitals, better treatment. I don't think anyone (except you, but your opinion is irrelevant) denies this. Americas health care is the top in the world.
As for immigrants, the one in denial is you.
| Quote: |
| visitorq wrote: |
| it's obvious you've got no taste... |
Oasis, Led Zeppelin, The Beatles, Radiohead... can America beat them..errrr......
visitorq - you need to learn to shut up. |
Listen to how stupid you sound... I'm not the childish one here trying to compare the subjective (I happen to love British music as well). But for the record, there are lots of Americans on the level: Bob Dylan (pretty much on a level of his own), the Eagles, Hendrix, CCR, Aerosmith, Red Hot Chili Peppers, Nirvana... to name a few (and that's even leaving out the old time rock and roll).
British bands are influenced by American bands, and vice versa. Your saying American bands "suck", just makes you look ridiculous.
| Quote: |
| visitorq wrote: |
| Yeah, do you know what reality is? The monarchy has a massive stake in your corrupt little country, both politically and economically. Last I checked the richest man in England was a member of the royal family. |
LOL hard... what % do you think the monarchy is of the UK economy? You made the initial point like the Queen decided on economic issues... now you're retreating to say 'they're rich'.... you're sooo weak. You're hardly worth responding to visitorq.... sorry. |
Well convenient for you: this is not public knowledge (which at the same time means you don't know). She does have a massive amount of private property (as does the entire peerage), but her stake in the Bank of England (which is also connected into the American Federal Reserve bank) is not disclosed. There is no evidence that the monarchy has lost it's share after all these years, however, so it is safe to assume it's quite substantial (not to mention they print her face on the money  ). |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Thu Sep 24, 2009 5:47 pm Post subject: |
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| Rusty Shackleford wrote: |
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| Unlike toothbrushes and light bulbs, though, when health care fails, people die. |
Govt fails every single day at basically every single thing it does. How is it all of a sudden going to break that streak and provide health care for every one and not spend more or kill more people in the process? |
First of all, the gov't does not fail every single day at basically every single thing it does. That statement is beyond the pale.
Secondly, the proposals on the table do not include nationalized health care or even a single-payer system (gov't pays private-run hospitals). Obama has even said that the public option is not a 'silver bullet' (thereby almost single-handedly burying his last progressive credentials and his pretensions as a brilliant speaker; how often has that silver bullet line been used in Washington, anyway?). So I have no idea why you are talking about 'providing health care for every one.' I don't know, maybe you are thinking about Medicare/Medicaid, which already exist? But the current proposals don't involve the gov't insuring everyone by any means. |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Thu Sep 24, 2009 6:01 pm Post subject: |
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| visitorq wrote: |
| Well convenient for you: this is not public knowledge (which at the same time means you don't know). She does have a massive amount of private property (as does the entire peerage), but her stake in the Bank of England (which is also connected into the American Federal Reserve bank) is not disclosed. There is no evidence that the monarchy has lost it's share after all these years, however, so it is safe to assume it's quite substantial (not to mention they print her face on the money ). |
Why do the cases your kind make always rely on unsubstantiated suppositions about what happens behind closed doors? "You don't know what her stake in the Bank of England is, so it must be huge." "You don't know what Carter's advisors talked about behind closed doors, so any opposition must be a facade and really they're all David Rockefeller's puppets." "You don't know what's in the health care bill, so there's surely pro-eugenics death pannels involved."
Tiresome. |
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shifter2009
Joined: 03 Sep 2006
Location: wisconsin
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| Posted: Thu Sep 24, 2009 8:15 pm Post subject: |
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| RufusW wrote: |
| visitorq wrote: |
| There's a reason you've got such good rock bands: life in the UK is the pits. |
I'll take that - American rock music sucks.
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I'll take all the abuse in the world about our health care system but I will not have our rock bands besmirched. Keep your whiney Brit rock, America is a bastion of the guitar solo. |
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