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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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 Posted: Mon Sep 28, 2009 9:27 pm Post subject: |
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| mises wrote: |
| I don't think when one African calls another by the n-word that they are expressing inferiority any more than when one gay dude calls another 'fag'. |
I don't think they are intending to express inferiority either; expression of superiority is a strong part of the subculture in question, as the data you presented shows.
I do think they debase and humiliate themselves by doing it, however. One can humiliate one's self without intending to, and without even fully realizing one is doing it. |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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| Posted: Mon Sep 28, 2009 9:35 pm Post subject: |
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| Fox wrote: |
| mises wrote: |
| I don't think when one African calls another by the n-word that they are expressing inferiority any more than when one gay dude calls another 'fag'. |
I don't think they are intending to express inferiority either; expression of superiority is a strong part of the subculture in question, as the data you presented shows.
I do think they debase and humiliate themselves by doing it, however. One can humiliate one's self without intending to, and without even fully realizing one is doing it. |
Yeah, could be. |
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ropebreezy
Joined: 27 Aug 2009
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| Posted: Mon Sep 28, 2009 9:56 pm Post subject: |
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| Fox wrote: |
| If you don't think the subculture amongst Blacks that primarily makes use of this word is humilating and self-destructive -- and that their usage of the word is symptomatic of those features -- I don't know what to tell you. |
You can try to have an intellectual debate with me about it. I'm challenging your point-of-view and you're throwing your hands in the air with "I don't know what to tell you."
So again, says who? Have you polled the black populace and asked them if they feel humiliated/debased when they call themselves nigger, or when another ethnicity says the word? Is this the say-so of the NAACP? How are you making these generalities without backing them up with facts? Common sense or because society says so won't be good enough answers.
| Fox wrote: |
| Your "Something is only humilating or debasing if someone chooses to be humilated or debased," theory is right up there with, "Your actions are sexual harassment if the person you're talking to feels harassed." |
It's not. Harrassment is different from saying a word. Harrassment is constant beration, intimidation...you know, actions, not just words. I can call a person a nigger, and that person can choose to be "humiliated," "debased," offended, or whatever you want to call it. I can also constantly shout obscenaties at this person, intimidate them physically, get in their way as they try to leave, and otherwise say all kinds of awful things, and they will feel harassed.
But this opens up a whole can of worms on what harassment entails and I just don't want to get into that debate.
edit:
| Fox wrote: |
| I do think they debase and humiliate themselves by doing it, however. One can humiliate one's self without intending to, and without even fully realizing one is doing it. |
Who sees it as humiliation? Why should we side with their interpretation of a word? You keep pointing to some sort of standard that says nigger=humiliation and I'm just wondering why it has to be that way. Why can't black people call each other niggers and everyone else just mind their own business? Words are words. It's the actions we need to be concerned about.
Last edited by ropebreezy on Mon Sep 28, 2009 10:10 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Mon Sep 28, 2009 10:09 pm Post subject: |
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| ropebreezy wrote: |
| So again, says who? Have you polled the black populace and asked them if they feel humiliated/debased when they call themselves nigger, or when another ethnicity says the word? |
I've all ready said I'm not talking about their feelings. You can debase and humiliate yourself without intending to, or even realizing you're doing it. I assert that is what is happening when Black people use this word in reference to one another.
| ropebreezy wrote: |
| Harrassment is constant beration, intimidation...you know, actions, not just words. |
I agree with you. Many other people do not agree with us, however. There are people who argue someone is harassed if they feel harassed. I disagree with that: harassment is about actions rather than merely feelings. Something can be harassment even if you can endure or ignore it, and something can fail to be harassment despite the fact that you might feel harassed.
I assert the same is true of humiliation and debasement. Something can be damaging to your dignity even if you don't realize it. Haven't you ever met someone who constantly makes a fool of themselves but never realizes it? I have. |
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ropebreezy
Joined: 27 Aug 2009
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| Posted: Mon Sep 28, 2009 10:27 pm Post subject: |
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| Fox wrote: |
| ropebreezy wrote: |
| Harrassment is constant beration, intimidation...you know, actions, not just words. |
I agree with you. Many other people do not agree with us, however. There are people who argue someone is harassed if they feel harassed. I disagree with that: harassment is about actions rather than merely feelings. Something can be harassment even if you can endure or ignore it, and something can fail to be harassment despite the fact that you might feel harassed.
I assert the same is true of humiliation and debasement. Something can be damaging to your dignity even if you don't realize it. Haven't you ever met someone who constantly makes a fool of themselves but never realizes it? I have. |
This is where we differ. There is no standard for humiliation and debasement (when it comes to words). Harassment can be defined, albeit very poorly, especially from a legal perspective, but it's illogical to do the same for humiliation and debasement. To do so would mean defining what words debase and humiliate a human being, and you just can't do that because it differs from person to person.
Please tell me why your interpretation of the word "nigger" should be considered over those who use it casually. You can cite historical reasons but this isn't a good enough reason to dictate what's humiliating and what's not.
Language is an evolving creature that is changing every hour of every day. Why can't "nigger" be how one black man refers to another? Why can't "fag" be how one homosexual greets another, or a cigarrette in England for that matter? It's just silly to proclaim that a group humiliates itself because it adopted a once racist term into something less powerful. The group doesn't feel humiliated; why should you insist that it does? Words are words are words...actions will always be the same but a word will change indefinitely. |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Mon Sep 28, 2009 10:43 pm Post subject: |
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| ropebreezy wrote: |
| Please tell me why your interpretation of the word "nigger" should be considered over those who use it casually. You can cite historical reasons but this isn't a good enough reason to dictate what's humiliating and what's not. |
The exact same logic can be used to justify White usage of the word, especially since you disqualify historic reasons as sufficiently compelling. If that's where you're going with this, go for it. If that's not where you're going for this, reconsider this line of argumentation.
| ropebreezy wrote: |
| Why can't "nigger" be how one black man refers to another? Why can't "fag" be how one homosexual greets or another, or a pack of cigarrettes in England for that matter? |
It can, if they want to take part in a perpetual cycle of self-degredation. And you can see the results of that cycle when you look at the average economic status of Blacks in America. It's not racism that's keeping these people down; companies are interested in hiring them, colleges would love them to attend in order to increase diversity, etc. It's their own culture of self-debasement, self-humiliation, and self-destruction.
| ropebreezy wrote: |
| The group doesn't feel humiliated; why should you? |
Mostly for their children's sake, honestly. If this is how they want to live, so be it, but they're going to reproduce, and they're going to raise their children into this culture. Yes, I'd like it to stop, for their children's sake. I don't care about how they feel, I care about the results, and the results are obvious. Blacks calling each other this -- especially while insisting other groups cannot, which reinforces what a bad word it is in the first place -- may only be a tiny part of the overall ridiculous self-degredation of Black subculture in America, but it's a part of it none the less. If you want to defend that, well, that's your choice. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Tue Sep 29, 2009 1:21 am Post subject: |
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To the OP's point,
I don't think in the pursuit of geopolitical stability fairness is the first priority.
But then again, pointing out the hypocrisy of the EU3 and the US on Israel is a giant Et Tu Quoque and a dodge on the real problem of Iran's shenanigans. |
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Mosley
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
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benji
Joined: 21 Jul 2009
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| Posted: Tue Sep 29, 2009 5:54 am Post subject: |
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| There are probably thousands if not a few million young white kids in America (not to mention the non English speaking world)who wouldnt even know the word nigger existed if not for blacks using it in hip hop music. |
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ropebreezy
Joined: 27 Aug 2009
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| Posted: Wed Sep 30, 2009 5:51 pm Post subject: |
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| Fox wrote: |
| ropebreezy wrote: |
| Please tell me why your interpretation of the word "nigger" should be considered over those who use it casually. You can cite historical reasons but this isn't a good enough reason to dictate what's humiliating and what's not. |
The exact same logic can be used to justify White usage of the word, especially since you disqualify historic reasons as sufficiently compelling. If that's where you're going with this, go for it. If that's not where you're going for this, reconsider this line of argumentation. |
This is what I'm going for.
| Fox wrote: |
| ropebreezy wrote: |
| Why can't "nigger" be how one black man refers to another? Why can't "fag" be how one homosexual greets or another, or a pack of cigarrettes in England for that matter? |
It can, if they want to take part in a perpetual cycle of self-degredation. And you can see the results of that cycle when you look at the average economic status of Blacks in America. It's not racism that's keeping these people down; companies are interested in hiring them, colleges would love them to attend in order to increase diversity, etc. It's their own culture of self-debasement, self-humiliation, and self-destruction. |
The word "nigger" has little to no contribution towards this self-destruction. The causes of this self destruction are: participating in criminal activity, bad parenting, racism, the drug trade, etc.
Many black people are poor for these reasons; their word choices are not reasons for their economic status.
| Fox wrote: |
| ropebreezy wrote: |
| The group doesn't feel humiliated; why should you? |
Mostly for their children's sake, honestly. If this is how they want to live, so be it, but they're going to reproduce, and they're going to raise their children into this culture. Yes, I'd like it to stop, for their children's sake. I don't care about how they feel, I care about the results, and the results are obvious. Blacks calling each other this -- especially while insisting other groups cannot, which reinforces what a bad word it is in the first place -- may only be a tiny part of the overall ridiculous self-degredation of Black subculture in America, but it's a part of it none the less. If you want to defend that, well, that's your choice. |
What results? The word "nigger" has little to do with their plight. But I'm glad you agree it's a small part of their self-destruction, because it absolutely is. I would argue it has no part, because as you can probably guess from my posts, I don't put much value in words nearly as much as actions.
All I'm objecting to is the notion that black people should feel degraded for using the word "nigger." They shouldn't have to feel anything. It's just a word.
Telling people how they should speak is degrading in itself; you are telling these people how they should talk. We (meaning the rest of society) don't own words; no person owns another person's word. Nigger is racist to you. Fine. Nigger isn't racist to them. Also fine. If all the black people one day were to stop saying the word, it wouldn't magically improve their economic status. So why give the word more power than it should have.
And for the record, as you can probably agree, blacks insisting other groups cannot say "nigger" is also wrong. Nobody owns words. |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Wed Sep 30, 2009 6:09 pm Post subject: |
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| ropebreezy wrote: |
| Fox wrote: |
| ropebreezy wrote: |
| Please tell me why your interpretation of the word "nigger" should be considered over those who use it casually. You can cite historical reasons but this isn't a good enough reason to dictate what's humiliating and what's not. |
The exact same logic can be used to justify White usage of the word, especially since you disqualify historic reasons as sufficiently compelling. If that's where you're going with this, go for it. If that's not where you're going for this, reconsider this line of argumentation. |
This is what I'm going for. |
Okay.
I feel the historic connotation of the word has given it a meaning it cannot be separated from which is inherently degrading to people who it is said about. You do not. Because of this disconnect, the best we can do is agree to disagree. You've all ready rejected out of hand what I feel is the basis behind the word's humilating and degrading nature, so we will not find common ground on this issue.
I assert historic reasons can make a word humiliating and degrading. You deny this. We disagree. Unless you feel you have some exceptionally compelling logic that will persuade me, perhaps it's best to leave it at that disagreement. I was fairly convinced from the start you were beyond persuasion after all, so this development is no surprise for me. I'm only participating because you essentially goaded me into it.
| ropebreezy wrote: |
| All I'm objecting to is the notion that black people should feel degraded for using the word "nigger." They shouldn't have to feel anything. It's just a word. |
I didn't say they should feel degraded by it. I said they are degraded by it, regardless of how they feel. It's a word with a very specific meaning, and that meaning is not a good one. If I walk up to you and call you a total fool, perhaps you can simply shrug it off as words, but that doesn't make my words less harsh and degrading. It simply means you don't care about being degraded by my words.
| ropebreezy wrote: |
| The word "nigger" has little to no contribution towards this self-destruction. The causes of this self destruction are: participating in criminal activity, bad parenting, racism, the drug trade, etc. |
It's certain part of an overall culture of self-destruction and self-degredation. Calling someone a "nigger" is a tiny thing, I agree, but that doesn't make it not a bad thing. It simply makes it a small bad (and also, an easily avoidable bad). It's isolating, it's ridiculous, and it only hurts the Black community.
| ropebreezy wrote: |
| Telling people how they should speak is degrading in itself |
No, it's not. A large portion of politeness, for instance, consists of what one should and shouldn't say. However, despite the fact that rules of politeness "Tell people how they should speak," I don't think it's degrading at all to suggest people be polite. Thus, it's fairly clear that there's nothing inherently degrading about saying what people should or shouldn't say. |
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pkang0202
Joined: 09 Mar 2007
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| Posted: Wed Sep 30, 2009 6:30 pm Post subject: |
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I thnk when a country like Iran and NK, who blatantly state they want to wipe the US off the face of the Earth, letting them test missiles is a bad idea.
If your neighbor says he wants to kill you and says it many times, wouldn't you be a little worried if he's shooting guns in his backyard? |
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Reggie
Joined: 21 Sep 2009
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| Posted: Wed Sep 30, 2009 8:26 pm Post subject: |
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1. One can criticize the costs and failures of numerous government programs and that's never controversial. Yet, when one is critical of the costs and failures of our military, it's considered anti-American/unpatriotic, as if America is supposed to be defined by wasted money and failure.
2. Fur coats are targeted by animal rights activists, but leather garments are everywhere and seemingly ignored.
3. Carrie Prejean got laughed at and ridiculed in the mainstream media, understandably, for saying she was chosen by God. Yet, others make the same claim and never get ridiculed. |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Wed Sep 30, 2009 8:47 pm Post subject: |
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| Reggie wrote: |
| 2. Fur coats are targeted by animal rights activists, but leather garments are everywhere and seemingly ignored. |
I was under the impression that the reason fur is generally complained about more vocally than leather is that many people think fur-bearing animals are only killed for their fur, while our primary source of leather would be killed for food even if not for our desire for leather. I was also under the impression that organizations like PETA are strongly against leather products as well.
I'm not sure it's totally fair to call this one a double standard. |
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