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The Gipkik
Joined: 30 Mar 2009
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 Posted: Tue Sep 29, 2009 1:42 am Post subject: |
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| I'm no Picasso wrote: |
Well I'm glad you're not taking this half as earnestly as I am, considering you've felt the need to once again attack me personally, instead of my opinions, when I have still yet to attack you. |
I didn't attack you. You've written so much on this thread that I am giving you my opinion.. I find your arrogance offensive. I stand by these words.
| I'm no Picasso wrote: |
As for a collective "we" and speaking on other people's behalf, yet again you're contradicting yourself and blaming me for things that you've done -- you're the one who's trying to claim that because you don't care for me or my opinions, no other man would as well. |
The "we" in this example has more to do with assuming every woman would naturally agree with you. That is the collective "we" as you call it. It isn't that I care or don't care about your opinions, it's that you have a very negative way of looking at men in general. If you talk to men in this way, I'm sure you'll be a hit.
| I'm no Picasso wrote: |
If you want to go on thinking that I hate men, that's your choice. You don't know me. Clearly. And again, I've given credit where credit is due in this thread -- I haven't lumped all men together. I've seen such a fantastic improvement, in fact, on these forums alone in recent months, as far as men spewing sexist nonsense and other men stepping in and counteracting it. I also know literally dozens of foreign men in this country who genuinely love and respect women (both Korean and foreign) and are a huge asset to the foreign community here -- I'm proud to stand along side them, and have them representing foreigners here in this country. And I will jump on anyone (male or female) who dares to make generalizations about foreign men in Korea, because of the fact that a lot of people I genuinely respect and hold dear happen to be foreign men in this country. |
I hope this isn't the person you represent in real life. You've given credit where credit is due? Really? Show me where? Nice little shibboleth to express your lack of innocence. You've consistently lumped men together--several times on this thread alone--and I gave you the latest sample. You've seen such a fantastic improvement? According to what criteria? What are you the mother hen here? And did you get that position just by being you? A huge asset to the foreign community? What does that mean? Another empty shibboleth. You will jump on anyone who dares to make generalizations about foreign men in Korea? Like you so aptly do? You must jump on yourself with abandon the same way you jump on men on this board. Oh, right. These foreign men aren't representative of your anointed foreign community. Such twaddle.
| I'm no Picasso wrote: |
I know men. I spend literally 95% of my time with men. Good men, who I love and respect, and who love and respect me. My students are 'men'. My brother is a man. All of my closest friends, save for one, are men. I know how many good men there are there. Which is why I don't feel cowered into letting it slide when I see other men making disrespectful commentary about something that is, quite literally, none of their business. |
Yes, yes. And I know women. Very well, too. Yes, my closest and dearest. The loves of my life. Yes, yes. Yes, your commentary is so respectful. Nonsense. Such hypocrisy. You do it so well.
| I'm no Picasso wrote: |
So you don't want women who smoke or have casual sex. You think they are beneath you. That's fine. I know a lot of men who have respect for women as human beings, and respect for their rights to live their lives freely, just as they (as men) do. They respect women who are strong and individualistic and who aren't afraid to give their opinions. You're just another drop in the bucket. We'll survive without you. |
No, I don't think such women are beneath me. I'm not attracted to this type of woman. And that is my right. Are you telling me that I should be attracted to this type of woman? What's wrong with you? Human beings? There you go putting words in my mouth again. How do you know I don't respect women who are strong and individualistic and who aren't afraid to give their opinions? Boy, you sure are reading me wrong. Like I said, you are clueless. If you think that was a name call, it was, but in the most reasonable way possible. And one last thing: we're all drops in a bucket. Some of us just think we're not, Picasso. |
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kabrams
Joined: 15 Mar 2008
Location: your Dad's house
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| Posted: Tue Sep 29, 2009 1:58 am Post subject: |
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Hahahaha, what is going on here.
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| NEVER SAID I DIDN'T. |
Never said you didn't...what?
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| THIS DOESN'T MEAN WHAT YOU'RE SAYING IT MEANS AND CANNOT BE INTERPRETED THE WAY YOU ARE TRYING TO. I'M SEEING WHERE GIPKKIK IS COMING FROM NOW. YOU ARE COMING FROM A FEMINIST AGENDA, I'M JUST BEING OBJECTIVE AND STATING FACTS. |
What do you mean "that doesn't mean what you think it does". I just don't think you understand what I'm saying.
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IF THEY (THE MEN STUPID) SLEEP AROUND TOO MUCH. I'M STATING THIS AS A FACT OF LIFE, NO JUDGEMENT ON MEN OR WOMEN FROM A MORAL VIEWPOINT. YOU HAVE A SCREW LOOSE IF YOU'RE READING MORE THAN THAT INTO IT
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Yes, I know you're talking about the men. That's my entire point! LOL.
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TRUE. TOUGH. LIFE SUCKS SOMETIMES. THAT IS NOT MEN'S FAULT! |
How you can say I'm coming from a "feminist agenda" and then say it's "not men's fault" that women get a "loose" vagina from having sex with a lot of men, and then just think that's okay, well...I don't know what to do but just shake my head in amazement!
As if there is "fault" or "blame" in having a slack or loose vagina. Seriously, WTF???
You're just...missing it.
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| THIS PERTAINS TO WHAT EXACTLY? YOU ARE TWISTING MY WORDS. LIKE I SAID, YOU HAVE A BEE IN YOUR BONNET. I THINK IT'S SO DEEP YOU PROBABLY DON'T REALISE ANYMORE. YOU NEED TO REALISE I WAS SAYING THERE ARE REPERCUSSIONS FOR BOTH MEN AND WOMEN WHO SLEEP AROUND TOO MUCH. YOU ON THE OTHER HAND THINK I WAS SAYING IT ONLY HAS NEGATIVE AFFECTS ON THE MEN - WHICH I NEVER DID!!!!!! |
Dude, seriously? I cannot believe you don't get it.
Yes, you're saying that the repercussions are bad, but that for women, the only thing that's bad for them is that they develop a loose vagina, which in actuality has nothing to do with them, but the men WHO FIND THAT UNAPPEALING.
I cannot believe I have to drive this point home to you again and again.
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FOR BOTH MEN AND WOMEN DUMBO. TO TWIST THINGS IN THE MANNER THAT YOU DO, I MIGHT AS WELL ASK YOU - WHERE DOES IT SAY IN THAT QUOTE 'SO THAT'S NOT GREAT FOR GUYS?' IT DOESN'T. IT DOESN'T STATE A GENDER. WAKE THE F UP. |
Right, because a woman is only as good as her vagina. If her vagina is unappealing to men, then she needs to stop sleeping with so many other men, right?
Because that's essentially what you're saying:
A woman who has a lot of sexual partners develops a loose vagina, and men find that unappealing.
A man who sleeps with a lot of sexual partners becomes bored with sex. And that's also bad.
How you don't see that this is a problem just further illustrates my point that there is a huge problem when it comes to representing female sexuality in a way that 1. does not involve men and 2. does not involve her being relegated to her genitals.
I'm not saying you are an evil person who deserves to burn in hell, I'm just saying misogyny is more than just "OMG, you can't wear short skirts or you're a *beep*!"
It has a lot to do with the fact that, as you've illustrated here in this thread, female sexuality is an extension of men--that is, the truly bad thing about women having a loose vagina is that it is unappealing to men.
Not that it might make her feel less sexually competent, not that it might not bother her at all, not that it might make her feel ugly or undesirable, but that TO MEN, it is unappealing, and that's the major problem.
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I DID. IT'S TRUE! OBVIOUSLY BEING LOOSE DOWN THERE IS NOT APPEALING TO MEN. I DO CONCEDE THAT I WROTE THIS AND MEANT THAT BY IT. WHERE IS THE CRIME IN STATING THAT. IT'S A FACT OF LIFE. PERHAPS IT'S A BUMMER FOR THE WOMAN TOO, BUT IT DOESN'T MAKE ME A MYSOGONYST OR ANYTHING FOR NOT STATING IT LOL. |
Whatever, man. I never called you a misogynist, but of course, you're so hyper about it that you've gotten super-defensive. Seriously, who cares if I call you a misogynist or not?
That's not even the point.
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NO IT BLOODY WELL ISN'T. I STATED THAT BEING LOOSE DOWN THERE IS NOT GOOD FROM A MAN'S PERSPECTIVE. NEVER DENIED THIS. WHEN IT CAME TO MEN BEING BORED / LESS AROUSED IF THEY (THE MEN) GET TOO MUCH EASY, CASUAL SEX I DIDN'T MENTION IT BEING NEGATIVE FROM THE PERSPECTIVE OF EITHER SEX AND I CHALLENGE YOU TO SHOW THAT I DID. YOU WILL FIND THIS HARD TO DO HOWEVER, SEEING AS SUCH WORDS DON'T ACTUALLY EXIST IN MY POST LOL.... |
Everything else is just gibberish because I addressed it above. The bolded part is my point.
You said, "Piccasso, here's the thing and it's coming from me, a guy." and then went on to say some pretty ridiculous things. Like, a woman who has many sex partners will develop a loose vagina, and the bad thing is that guys find that unappealing.
And then you had the nerve to say that a woman who develops a "loose vagina" from having several sex partners is "just as bad" as a man who becomes bored with sex because he's had too much "easy/meaningless" sex.
Honestly, can you not even read yourself?
And I'm bolding this last part, because I really, REALLY want you to fking read and digest:
The really sad thing is that you are assuming a whole lot about women who have many sexual partners, specifically that they all will develop a loose vagina.
This is untrue. The vagina DOES NOT WORK THAT WAY. You will not develop a loose or slack vagina from having sex. How the hell does that even make sense? If that were true, every regularly sexually active woman would have a "loose" vagina. DUH. Think about it, people.
The most common cause of vaginal looseness, since we're on the topic, is childbirth, followed by age or vaginal trauma. STIs also contribute to vaginal looseness but that's pretty specific.
So men saying that women get "loose" because they have a lot of sexual partners are just spreading more ridiculous misinformation. |
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redaxe
Joined: 01 Dec 2008
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| Posted: Tue Sep 29, 2009 2:13 am Post subject: |
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| this thread is about "vaginal looseness" now? really, guys? |
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I'm no Picasso
Joined: 28 Oct 2008
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| Posted: Tue Sep 29, 2009 2:20 am Post subject: |
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| The Gipkik wrote: |
| I'm no Picasso wrote: |
Well I'm glad you're not taking this half as earnestly as I am, considering you've felt the need to once again attack me personally, instead of my opinions, when I have still yet to attack you. |
I didn't attack you. You've written so much on this thread that I am giving you my opinion.. I find your arrogance offensive. I stand by these words.
| I'm no Picasso wrote: |
As for a collective "we" and speaking on other people's behalf, yet again you're contradicting yourself and blaming me for things that you've done -- you're the one who's trying to claim that because you don't care for me or my opinions, no other man would as well. |
The "we" in this example has more to do with assuming every woman would naturally agree with you. That is the collective "we" as you call it. It isn't that I care or don't care about your opinions, it's that you have a very negative way of looking at men in general. If you talk to men in this way, I'm sure you'll be a hit.
| I'm no Picasso wrote: |
If you want to go on thinking that I hate men, that's your choice. You don't know me. Clearly. And again, I've given credit where credit is due in this thread -- I haven't lumped all men together. I've seen such a fantastic improvement, in fact, on these forums alone in recent months, as far as men spewing sexist nonsense and other men stepping in and counteracting it. I also know literally dozens of foreign men in this country who genuinely love and respect women (both Korean and foreign) and are a huge asset to the foreign community here -- I'm proud to stand along side them, and have them representing foreigners here in this country. And I will jump on anyone (male or female) who dares to make generalizations about foreign men in Korea, because of the fact that a lot of people I genuinely respect and hold dear happen to be foreign men in this country. |
I hope this isn't the person you represent in real life. You've given credit where credit is due? Really? Show me where? Nice little shibboleth to express your lack of innocence. You've consistently lumped men together--several times on this thread alone--and I gave you the latest sample. You've seen such a fantastic improvement? According to what criteria? What are you the mother hen here? And did you get that position just by being you? A huge asset to the foreign community? What does that mean? Another empty shibboleth. You will jump on anyone who dares to make generalizations about foreign men in Korea? Like you so aptly do? You must jump on yourself with abandon the same way you jump on men on this board. Oh, right. These foreign men aren't representative of your anointed foreign community. Such twaddle.
| I'm no Picasso wrote: |
I know men. I spend literally 95% of my time with men. Good men, who I love and respect, and who love and respect me. My students are 'men'. My brother is a man. All of my closest friends, save for one, are men. I know how many good men there are there. Which is why I don't feel cowered into letting it slide when I see other men making disrespectful commentary about something that is, quite literally, none of their business. |
Yes, yes. And I know women. Very well, too. Yes, my closest and dearest. The loves of my life. Yes, yes. Yes, your commentary is so respectful. Nonsense. Such hypocrisy. You do it so well.
| I'm no Picasso wrote: |
So you don't want women who smoke or have casual sex. You think they are beneath you. That's fine. I know a lot of men who have respect for women as human beings, and respect for their rights to live their lives freely, just as they (as men) do. They respect women who are strong and individualistic and who aren't afraid to give their opinions. You're just another drop in the bucket. We'll survive without you. |
No, I don't think such women are beneath me. I'm not attracted to this type of woman. And that is my right. Are you telling me that I should be attracted to this type of woman? What's wrong with you? Human beings? There you go putting words in my mouth again. How do you know I don't respect women who are strong and individualistic and who aren't afraid to give their opinions? Boy, you sure are reading me wrong. Like I said, you are clueless. If you think that was a name call, it was, but in the most reasonable way possible. And one last thing: we're all drops in a bucket. Some of us just think we're not, Picasso. |
You find my arrogance offensive because I don't sit back and let men say whatever they want about women, of which I actually am one, yet you think men should be able to say whatever they want and if women don't like it, they can just keep their mouths shut and stay out of the discussion?
As far as a collective 'we', I'll ask you one more time to clarify exactly what you meant when you said that no men would want to have anything to do with me, because you disagree with what I have say.
I don't talk to 'men' (your collectivism there, not mine) in any way. I talk to people in whatever way I deem appropriate. If one person is being a wanker, I talk to that person like they are a wanker.
And again, with the accusations of lumping men together, you haven't provided an example for that yet, so I don't know what you want me to say to that. You can also insist that I claimed the sky was red, as I continue to tell you that I'm quite sure that it's blue. It will get us just about as far. I don't know how many ways I have to acknowledge my understanding that all men are not chauvinist pigs before you can admit that I have said quite clearly that all men are not chauvinist pigs. Just like I never called you cave man, or made any kind of reference to the like, yet you were quite convinced that I did.
I jump on people on this board when I see them making outrageous sexist, racists, or otherwise offensive claims, regardless of whether they are male or female. Again, you are the one who is making this about "men" -- not me. The people I've addressed in this thread so far, including you, happen to be men. Generally, when dealing with an issue of sexism, it is often men who are addressed. But not always, as you will see if you pop over to the plastic surgery thread that got quite heated a while ago, where I "jumped on" a number of women as well. I understand that you're dead set on making this a men vs. women situation, and then blaming me for it, but again, that's coming from you -- not me.
You're not attracted to women who smoke or have casual sex. I get it. It's your choice, your right, whatever. However, my original point way back yonder was about how you decided to make some groundless claim that women are more naturally inclined to follow society's rules. There are a number of critical issues with that statement that, to me, demonstrate a clear lack of understanding of issues relating to gender and society. If you think that's "arrogant", than so be it. As my grandfather says, I calls a spade a spade. I'm entitled to my opinion -- as are you. If you think my opinion being different than yours constitutes the necessity to designate me a complete and total social outcast, while also claiming that *I'm* the one who's self-important, well.... |
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kabrams
Joined: 15 Mar 2008
Location: your Dad's house
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| Posted: Tue Sep 29, 2009 2:32 am Post subject: |
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| redaxe wrote: |
| this thread is about "vaginal looseness" now? really, guys? |
I mean...I'm part of the conversation, and I don't believe it, either.
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I'm no Picasso
Joined: 28 Oct 2008
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| Posted: Tue Sep 29, 2009 2:36 am Post subject: |
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| kabrams wrote: |
| redaxe wrote: |
| this thread is about "vaginal looseness" now? really, guys? |
I mean...I'm part of the conversation, and I don't believe it, either.
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Seconded. Just to clarify, me and kabrams definitely didn't start the loose vag thing. |
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The Gipkik
Joined: 30 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Tue Sep 29, 2009 2:57 am Post subject: |
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| I'm no Picasso wrote: |
Oh, the boxes you men put yourselves in with this nonsense.
By the way, women are more worried about breaking rules than men by nature, as proved by "study" after nameless "study"? Lol. Men don't have nearly as many rules as women to begin with, sport.
Men trying to talk about gender and sociology on this forum make me cringe. It's like listening to your grandpa talk about race relations. They may mean will, but they haven't the slightest clue what's actually going on, most of the time. |
Lumping men? Let's just start with this thread alone--never mind other threads.
You men? Men don't have as many rules as women to begin with, sport? You wanna bet?
Men trying to talk about gender and sociology on this forum make me cringe? Arrogance and misandry. What makes you an expert on gender? Oh, that's right, men don't have a gender. They mean well? Condescending arrogance.
That's just the beginning. Lumping me in with Dave's posters as misogynists is not only incredibly shallow and chauvinistic, but it's wrong. I stand by my words. |
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The Gipkik
Joined: 30 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Tue Sep 29, 2009 3:06 am Post subject: |
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| I'm no Picasso wrote: |
Another thread where men are called on the carpet, and when they can't back up what they said, and even seem fairly embarrassed by it actually (considering that they keep trying to say they didn't say things they clearly did), they claim women are being hysterical, feminist, man haters.
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Lumping. The reason I stated that other men wouldn't find you attractive is this fundamental lack of respect you have for men. Very simple.
And I'm not dead set on making this a man-woman issue. I really care about women and I don't like being lumped into any group. It's interesting when the shoe is on the other foot. Women on this board slander men with impunity rather than identifying the posters, just call them men. However, when I throw it back there is this bristling defensiveness. I don't like to be included when it is something beyond my control--my sex. That is sexist.
I'll say it again about you, Picasso. I think a lot of your posts are well thought out and together, but when you start on gender topics, you just go haywire. Buttons being pressed all over the place. |
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I'm no Picasso
Joined: 28 Oct 2008
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| Posted: Tue Sep 29, 2009 3:12 am Post subject: |
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| The Gipkik wrote: |
| I'm no Picasso wrote: |
Oh, the boxes you men put yourselves in with this nonsense.
By the way, women are more worried about breaking rules than men by nature, as proved by "study" after nameless "study"? Lol. Men don't have nearly as many rules as women to begin with, sport.
Men trying to talk about gender and sociology on this forum make me cringe. It's like listening to your grandpa talk about race relations. They may mean will, but they haven't the slightest clue what's actually going on, most of the time. |
Lumping men? Let's just start with this thread alone--never mind other threads.
You men? Men don't have as many rules as women to begin with, sport? You wanna bet?
Men trying to talk about gender and sociology on this forum make me cringe? Arrogance and misandry. What makes you an expert on gender? Oh, that's right, men don't have a gender. They mean well? Condescending arrogance.
That's just the beginning. Lumping me in with Dave's posters as misogynists is not only incredibly shallow and chauvinistic, but it's wrong. I stand by my words. |
You are right. I should have said, "some men trying to talk about gender and sociology on this forum makes me cringe." I apologize.
That having been said, you still fall into that category, as it was your specific comment that I was addressing. I never called you a misogynist. I said your commentary made me cringe, even though you may mean well.
Being a woman does not make me an expert on gender. Being educated about gender makes me educated about gender. Experiencing gender specific issues (arguably more than men, since I am a woman -- and if you want to argue that women don't have more societal rules dictated to them than men, feel free to go ahead and try -- I'll be amused to see it) makes me educated about gender. Not saying things like women are more naturally inclined to follow social rules makes me educated about gender.
I've met plenty of men who have a highly developed understanding of gender issues. Again, I wasn't addressing all men here (apologies, again, for not including the "some" disclaimer), but I was addressing you. |
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I'm no Picasso
Joined: 28 Oct 2008
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| Posted: Tue Sep 29, 2009 3:17 am Post subject: |
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| The Gipkik wrote: |
| I'm no Picasso wrote: |
Another thread where men are called on the carpet, and when they can't back up what they said, and even seem fairly embarrassed by it actually (considering that they keep trying to say they didn't say things they clearly did), they claim women are being hysterical, feminist, man haters.
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Lumping. The reason I stated that other men wouldn't find you attractive is this fundamental lack of respect you have for men. Very simple.
And I'm not dead set on making this a man-woman issue. I really care about women and I don't like being lumped into any group. It's interesting when the shoe is on the other foot. Women on this board slander men with impunity rather than identifying the posters, just call them men. However, when I throw it back there is this bristling defensiveness. I don't like to be included when it is something beyond my control--my sex. That is sexist.
I'll say it again about you, Picasso. I think a lot of your posts are well thought out and together, but when you start on gender topics, you just go haywire. Buttons being pressed all over the place. |
Earth to Gipkik -- Lumping:
"other men wouldn't find you attractive"
"women on this board slander men... just call them men... that is sexist."
I have yet to go haywire. I'm simply expressing my opinion. You perceived something from the beginning which was not there, which was me name calling and identifying you as a misogynist. You then proceeded to prescribe this imaginary opinion of mine as applying to all men. You have refused to back down on this entirely fabricated premise. Again, I apologize if my first "men on this board" was too general. It was not my intention to implicate all, or even most men, on this board or anywhere else, for that matter.
And just to clarify, in this case, it's a simple matter of grammar -- not a generalization. "Where men are called on the carpet" -- men are being called on the carpet here, are they not? There is no implication of generalization in that statement. You are being overly sensitive.
Last edited by I'm no Picasso on Tue Sep 29, 2009 3:21 am; edited 1 time in total |
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The Gipkik
Joined: 30 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Tue Sep 29, 2009 3:20 am Post subject: |
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| I'm no Picasso wrote: |
That having been said, you still fall into that category, as it was your specific comment that I was addressing. I never called you a misogynist. I said your commentary made me cringe, even though you may mean well.
Being a woman does not make me an expert on gender. Being educated about gender makes me educated about gender. Experiencing gender specific issues (arguably more than men, since I am a woman -- and if you want to argue that women don't have more societal rules dictated to them than men, feel free to go ahead and try -- I'll be amused to see it) makes me educated about gender. Not saying things like women are more naturally inclined to follow social rules makes me educated about gender.
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I fall into that category, do I? What makes you think I'm not educated about gender? What makes you think I haven't experienced gender specific issues? You don't know men very well, do you?
As to the rules that men and women have to follow, whatever. My statement referred to females being rule followers and males taking risks. And this means within the same context, pick one. Women will follow the same rules that are handed out to all members of the group with a lot more devotion and attention. If you know your gender studies, this is introductory stuff.
You still haven't persuaded me that you have a right to your arrogance on these issues. This isn't 1970. Try again. |
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The Gipkik
Joined: 30 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Tue Sep 29, 2009 3:23 am Post subject: |
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| I'm no Picasso wrote: |
Earth to Gipkik -- Lumping:
"other men wouldn't find you attractive"
"women on this board slander men... just call them men... that is sexist."
I have yet to go haywire. I'm simply expressing my opinion. You perceived something from the beginning which was not there, which was me name calling and identifying you as a misogynist. You then proceeded to prescribe this imaginary opinion of mine as applying to all men. You have refused to back down on this entirely fabricated premise. Again, I apologize if my first "men on this board" was too general. It was not my intention to implicate all, or even most men, on this board or anywhere else, for that matter. |
Okay, okay. Having read your posts while reading other threads I saw a trend. I will say that I might have misjudged you. Fair enough. Apology accepted. Can we just call it quits already? |
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I'm no Picasso
Joined: 28 Oct 2008
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| Posted: Tue Sep 29, 2009 3:26 am Post subject: |
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| The Gipkik wrote: |
| I'm no Picasso wrote: |
That having been said, you still fall into that category, as it was your specific comment that I was addressing. I never called you a misogynist. I said your commentary made me cringe, even though you may mean well.
Being a woman does not make me an expert on gender. Being educated about gender makes me educated about gender. Experiencing gender specific issues (arguably more than men, since I am a woman -- and if you want to argue that women don't have more societal rules dictated to them than men, feel free to go ahead and try -- I'll be amused to see it) makes me educated about gender. Not saying things like women are more naturally inclined to follow social rules makes me educated about gender.
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I fall into that category, do I? What makes you think I'm not educated about gender? What makes you think I haven't experienced gender specific issues? You don't know men very well, do you?
As to the rules that men and women have to follow, whatever. My statement referred to females being rule followers and males taking risks. And this means within the same context, pick one. Women will follow the same rules that are handed out to all members of the group with a lot more devotion and attention. If you know your gender studies, this is introductory stuff.
You still haven't persuaded me that you have a right to your arrogance on these issues. This isn't 1970. Try again. |
You fall into that category because it was you who I was addressing. The category was "men who make me cringe when they talk about gender" -- that would be you, in this case. Yes. You don't get to decide what does or does not make me cringe. That's not objectively quantifiable.
As for introductory stuff, you're right about that. You must not have gotten to chapter 2 where such things are explained not as a result of natural inclination, but as another result of social conditioning. Women are expected to adhere to the rules. Men are expected to be leaders, innovators and risk takers. It has nothing to do with nature.
As for men not having social expectations placed on them, I would not and did not say anything of the like. Generally speaking, in modern societies, however, I would argue that there are far more outward rules prescribed for women. Being that I am actually educated about gender however, AND I engage with men on a regular basis, I'm aware of the set of rigid rules that exist for men. Having one gay male friend in high school can teach you that much. Again, you're trying to make my statements blanketed and general, when they are nothing of the sort. |
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I'm no Picasso
Joined: 28 Oct 2008
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| Posted: Tue Sep 29, 2009 3:28 am Post subject: |
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| The Gipkik wrote: |
| I'm no Picasso wrote: |
Earth to Gipkik -- Lumping:
"other men wouldn't find you attractive"
"women on this board slander men... just call them men... that is sexist."
I have yet to go haywire. I'm simply expressing my opinion. You perceived something from the beginning which was not there, which was me name calling and identifying you as a misogynist. You then proceeded to prescribe this imaginary opinion of mine as applying to all men. You have refused to back down on this entirely fabricated premise. Again, I apologize if my first "men on this board" was too general. It was not my intention to implicate all, or even most men, on this board or anywhere else, for that matter. |
Okay, okay. Having read your posts while reading other threads I saw a trend. I will say that I might have misjudged you. Fair enough. Apology accepted. Can we just call it quits already? |
Sure. I'd shake on it, if I could. |
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The Gipkik
Joined: 30 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Tue Sep 29, 2009 3:39 am Post subject: |
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| I'm no Picasso wrote: |
You fall into that category because it was you who I was addressing. The category was "men who make me cringe when they talk about gender" -- that would be you, in this case. Yes. You don't get to decide what does or does not make me cringe. That's not objectively quantifiable. |
Okay. First, I don't care how you feel about me. You are a total stranger and I want it to stay that way, so don't use these touchy feely words. This isn't high school. And back at you again. One cringe deserves another. Will this disagreement ever end!
| I'm no Picasso wrote: |
As for introductory stuff, you're right about that. You must not have gotten to chapter 2 where such things are explained not as a result of natural inclination, but as another result of social conditioning. Women are expected to adhere to the rules. Men are expected to be leaders, innovators and risk takers. It has nothing to do with nature. |
Nope. I was right that you didn't know what you were talking about. I'm not going to look this up for you as the studies are many. Go ahead. Studies have examined children before social conditioning can make a strong impact. It holds for adults and is clearly solid. Only two marked differences have been found to separate the genders in terms of cognition: risk aversion for females and rule obeying. It's pretty obvious with elementary students.
It has nothing to do with nature? Clearly you know nothing about gender after all.
| I'm no Picasso wrote: |
As for men not having social expectations placed on them, I would not and did not say anything of the like. Generally speaking, in modern societies, however, I would argue that there are far more outward rules prescribed for women. Being that I am actually educated about gender however, AND I engage with men on a regular basis, I'm aware of the set of rigid rules that exist for men. Having one gay male friend in high school can teach you that much. Again, you're trying to make my statements blanketed and general, when they are nothing of the sort. |
Sorry, when you say that you're educated about gender, you aren't being persuasive. It sounds like indoctrinated. In terms of how men are socialized and the demands and expectations that society impresses on them: You may not have said this, but the way you write it leaves it open to question. |
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