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bassexpander
Joined: 13 Sep 2007
Location: Someplace you'd rather be.
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 Posted: Tue Sep 29, 2009 5:45 am Post subject: Foreign students blast SNU... good read |
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http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/nation/2009/09/117_52707.html
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An Australian PhD candidate in biotechnology said she is likely to give up studying at SNU, simply because �the conditions are not supportive.�
�I cannot even register for classes without help because the entire sign-up system is all in Korean. My classes are all in Korean and I understand less than five percent. However, I still managed a 4.09 GPA last term just because the quality of teaching here is terrible and the exams were too easy compared to Western standards,� said the 27-year-old student in an e-mail to The Korea Times. |
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Aelric
Joined: 02 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Tue Sep 29, 2009 6:00 am Post subject: |
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Well, to be honest, in regards to the classes and lectures themselves, she should really brush up on her Korean. Don't get me wrong, I'm in the public sector, I realize the high test results are due to question memorizing and not real learning as well as rather easy testing because hey, you are in a good school, meaning you are rich, why challenge you. However, it my university in America were forced to teach in German due to a few transfers, I'd probably suffer a little in my note taking too. You don't study in a foreign uni without knowing the language, come on. Now, in regards to administration, there could probably be some improvement though hiring bi-lingual staff or even hiring interpreters.
The faculty issue is totally out of bounds. You should always hire the best qualified teachers, regardless if it makes some local teachers butt hurt. You are supposed to be the best school, after all. The professor who resigned should have been given at least some proper means to communicate with the administration other than 1330. Be then again, it's only one article, so this is all initial reaction from me. I don't know the whole story and the Korea Times is the fox news of this country, so I don't trust it to give a fully story, even when it comes to foreigner bashing none the less reporting legitimate complaints. |
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misher
Joined: 14 Oct 2008
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| Posted: Tue Sep 29, 2009 6:00 am Post subject: |
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Yikes.
I want to go there to do a master's degree. I guess I'll only go if the $$$ is available through scholarship. |
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redaxe
Joined: 01 Dec 2008
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| Posted: Tue Sep 29, 2009 6:11 am Post subject: |
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Some people... Why on God's green Earth would anyone want a PhD from a Korean institution if they can't read Korean? If you're not Korean and don't speak Korean, but you have to go to Korea to get your PhD, maybe you just aren't cut out to be a PhD. Really, how could anyone possibly get the impression that studying for a graduate degree in Korea would be a good idea? They actually expect the courses to be taught in English?!  |
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optik404
Joined: 24 Jun 2008
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| Posted: Tue Sep 29, 2009 6:20 am Post subject: |
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They should hire a entire staff of English Speaking teachers to accomodate the English speaking students at SNU!!!
Sure they probably dont even make up .01% but still! |
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ldh2222
Joined: 12 Oct 2007
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| Posted: Tue Sep 29, 2009 6:21 am Post subject: Re: Foreign students blast SNU... good read |
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| bassexpander wrote: |
| My classes are all in Korean and I understand less than five percent. However, I still managed a 4.09 GPA last term.. |
Yeah, that should NEVER happen, what a joke.. |
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coralreefer_1
Joined: 19 Jan 2009
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| Posted: Tue Sep 29, 2009 6:25 am Post subject: |
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| redaxe wrote: |
| Some people... Why on God's green Earth would anyone want a PhD from a Korean institution if they can't read Korean? If you're not Korean and don't speak Korean, but you have to go to Korea to get your PhD, maybe you just aren't cut out to be a PhD. Really, how could anyone possibly get the impression that studying for a graduate degree in Korea would be a good idea? They actually expect the courses to be taught in English?! |
I cant help but agree with this. There again though, the article mentioned they were "exchange" students..which I take to mean most of them are only there for a semester or two, not to pursue their entire degree in Korea. That aside, if they come to a foreign country and cannot speak the native language enough to simple communicate with staff about their issues..how in the world can they possibly follow lectures at that level given the language.
The part about the article that gets me the most though, is how the writer implies that Korean universities are not recognized because of their lack of a "globalized" student body and staff. It seems to me most if not all Korean universities do not get recognized because of the universities "lack of expectation" of students, and the tiny amount of work that must be done here even to pursue a 4 year degree.
No-one will recognize you if you are just giving students a mid term, a final, and expecting them to hand in only ONE single report per semester, that is in most cases copied and pasted from Naver and NEVER read by the professors. It is the level of education and lack of real work/study that is holding Korean universities back..not the lack of foreign students or professors. When the universities finally decide to have even half as much expectation for university students as they have for high school students(and push them as such) here..those numbers may increase dramatically. |
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benji
Joined: 21 Jul 2009
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| Posted: Tue Sep 29, 2009 6:32 am Post subject: |
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| I have known many foreign students here in Seoul who came to korea only because the Korean universities gave them scholarships. Otherwise they had no interest in studying here. I suppose the Korean universities were handing out these scholarships like candy in order to increase their international enrollment so that they could improve their rankings. |
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redaxe
Joined: 01 Dec 2008
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| Posted: Tue Sep 29, 2009 6:39 am Post subject: |
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| coralreefer_1 wrote: |
The part about the article that gets me the most though, is how the writer implies that Korean universities are not recognized because of their lack of a "globalized" student body and staff. It seems to me most if not all Korean universities do not get recognized because of the universities "lack of expectation" of students, and the tiny amount of work that must be done here even to pursue a 4 year degree.
No-one will recognize you if you are just giving students a mid term, a final, and expecting them to hand in only ONE single report per semester, that is in most cases copied and pasted from Naver and NEVER read by the professors. It is the level of education and lack of real work/study that is holding Korean universities back..not the lack of foreign students or professors. When the universities finally decide to have even half as much expectation for university students as they have for high school students(and push them as such) here..those numbers may increase dramatically. |
Yeah, basically a lack of English is not really the fundamental problem with the Korean education system, but they seem to see English as the solution.
As for the lax academic standards, well, first of all I think you're exaggerating a little bit, because I did see the coursework my ex-girlfriend did at Ewha and it looked reasonably difficult, and second of all the "really difficult high school, really easy college" system is probably something they actually can blame on the Japanese. In Japan it's the same way, high school is hell and college is for party time and getting a good job based on the name of the school you went to.
But yeah, basically agree, English is not the biggest problem or the best solution. The whole system is messed up and needs to change if Korea wants its universities to be highly regarded and respected internationally.
Of course, the smartest and/or richest Koreans know this, which is why top universities in America are FULL of Koreans. |
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redaxe
Joined: 01 Dec 2008
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| Posted: Tue Sep 29, 2009 6:43 am Post subject: |
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| benji wrote: |
| I have known many foreign students here in Seoul who came to korea only because the Korean universities gave them scholarships. Otherwise they had no interest in studying here. I suppose the Korean universities were handing out these scholarships like candy in order to increase their international enrollment so that they could improve their rankings. |
Ha! So you mean they're basically like ESL teachers then? |
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coralreefer_1
Joined: 19 Jan 2009
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| Posted: Tue Sep 29, 2009 6:54 am Post subject: |
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I cant speak for Ewha, because next to the SKY universities, it is number 4 or 5, but the thing is..most universities in Korea are not like those schools. Most are average or lower, and I can tell you from being at an "average" university...the amount of work we do is simply laughable compared to what I did at an "average" university back in the US.
Here is a story for you. I have been at this university for almost two years now, taking all of my courses in Korean. At this university, there is no kind of feedback about your grades. Students do not really find out how well they are doing until they take a mid-term exam, which counts for 30% of their grade. I have always been bothered by this, because if i have some kind of misunderstanding about something we studied in week 2, i do not find out my mistake until after week 8, when it counts for so much of my average.(even then, i don't know the area I did poorly in, I just know that at the end of the semester, i got a poor grade on the mid-term, but no idea about which area, or subject I did not understand or answer correctly)
Well in one particular class last semester, about a week after the midterm, I asked the professor to let me know how I did not the test, so i could know and understand the areas i did poorly in and go over them again. His response to me went basically something like this...
"You are very disrespectful to ask me for your grade".
"If you had studied harder, you would have confidence that you did well and not worry about you grade"
Not only the lack of work we must do, (again , only one report per semester, and no quizzes, or other such work) but the lack of feedback and information about how well a student is doing is an issue i simply cannot wrap my head around. My professors back in the US were all too happy to tell me "Yes, you should review Chapters 5-7 again"..or some other kind of response. At least that way I can identify what i misunderstood and correct the problem. But in the case of my university here in Korea, (and most other "average" universities here)..there seems to be no system of checks and balances. Even if a student wanted to go the extra mile and correct themselves (I don't imagine many Korean university students at an average university care that much) the system and the method do not seem to be set up to favor the student to better themselves. |
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pkang0202
Joined: 09 Mar 2007
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| Posted: Tue Sep 29, 2009 7:06 am Post subject: |
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| I really like the Sejong-Syracuse MBA program. Why? Half the professors are Syracuse professors that teach. Program is ALL ENGLISH. I've met a couple Korean professors that leave much to be desired, however, most of the Korean professors were good. Majority of them having actually taught at Universities in the US. |
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bassexpander
Joined: 13 Sep 2007
Location: Someplace you'd rather be.
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| Posted: Tue Sep 29, 2009 7:07 am Post subject: |
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| redaxe wrote: |
| Some people... Why on God's green Earth would anyone want a PhD from a Korean institution if they can't read Korean? If you're not Korean and don't speak Korean, but you have to go to Korea to get your PhD, maybe you just aren't cut out to be a PhD. Really, how could anyone possibly get the impression that studying for a graduate degree in Korea would be a good idea? |
With a western mindset, not knowing what I know now, I would have said the same thing. I'm going to answer your question, and when I'm finished, I bet it will all make sense....
First, Exhibit A:
http://www.eslcafe.com/jobs/korea/index.cgi?read=39078
At the moment, there aren't many Ph.D foreigners in South Korea. This will change in a few years... why?
Here's why....
SNU has been advertising that their goal is to offer full degree programs in English. Despite the promises so far, these foreigners in the KT article are complaining that it just isn't happening.
Now why would SNU care about offering classes entirely in English? It all comes down to MONEY. SNU and other Korean schools are tripping over themselves trying to make this happen because Korea is bleeding its best and brightest (and those just below that level) overseas -- not only to the US and Canada, but now to Japanese schools like Waseda, where a student can complete an entire degree in English (with the exception of some required Japanese language courses, I heard). I actually have a former student or two enrolled in such programs right now.
Japan started the ball rolling, hoping to snatch-up and cash-in on the rich Asian students who aren't quite smart enough or adventurous enough (ie: scared to be so far from mama) to get into a full program at an English-speaking country. Now Korea has followed suit, only Korea is learning very quickly that they aren't able to provide programs such as this without native speakers of English. Some schools have tried to have their Korean profs. teach in English (my univ. included), and are failing miserably.
Most Korean profs. either can't do it, or don't want to do it! What's the alternative? Hire more foreign staff, in a variety of disciplines, to make the dream a reality.
Ultimately, this means they have to bite the bullet and start offering Ph.D positions to native speakers. The number of said positions are beginning to grow. My university has already told us about their goals to offer degree programs taught entirely in English, and we're not even a mid-level university in Seoul!
It'd be kind of hard for a Korean school to ignore a foreigner with a Korean Ph.D, wouldn't it? Especially from a SKY school like SNU? What is the university hiring committee, staffed by Yonsei and SNU grads, going to say? Would they say, "We won't even consider you, because Korean degrees are garbage?"
Yeah, right!
Really... think about it.... a Korean Ph.D might be considered poor overseas, but here it can land you a tenured position. A number of MA-holders who populate this very board have begun working on Ph.D's with Korean schools (and many of them ranked far lower than SNU).
I could have someone confused here, and if I do, my apologies, but ask PRagic where his Ph.D is from, and how far it has gotten him. In any case, a Korean Ph.D. can = a tenured position. For a lifer with family in Korea, that's a rather enticing idea.
It's also a very attractive thought for Korean in-laws who hear SNU and Ph.D. in the same sentence, and see dollar signs.
Trust me on this. This very topic was discussed at great length at a dinner -- right in front of me -- by my new family. Kudos to my wife for stepping-in and telling them I was planning on working on an MA from overseas. Quite entertaining to hear aunts, uncles, and cousins (many of whom you just met) deciding your entire future for you. I was slightly bothered by it all, but my wife laughed it off and told me not to take it too seriously.
Still.... |
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Xuanzang
Joined: 10 Apr 2007
Location: Sadang
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| Posted: Tue Sep 29, 2009 2:10 pm Post subject: |
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She should have gone to KAIST. They have full English instruction for their programs. How good is the English? Better than 5%.
Bass: They might make up some excuses like the guy who wanted to be a public school teacher. Such as "Oh your undergrad degree wasn`t from the SKY," etc. |
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redaxe
Joined: 01 Dec 2008
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| Posted: Tue Sep 29, 2009 2:31 pm Post subject: |
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| bassexpander wrote: |
| redaxe wrote: |
| Some people... Why on God's green Earth would anyone want a PhD from a Korean institution if they can't read Korean? If you're not Korean and don't speak Korean, but you have to go to Korea to get your PhD, maybe you just aren't cut out to be a PhD. Really, how could anyone possibly get the impression that studying for a graduate degree in Korea would be a good idea? |
With a western mindset, not knowing what I know now, I would have said the same thing. I'm going to answer your question, and when I'm finished, I bet it will all make sense....
First, Exhibit A:
http://www.eslcafe.com/jobs/korea/index.cgi?read=39078
At the moment, there aren't many Ph.D foreigners in South Korea. This will change in a few years... why?
Here's why....
SNU has been advertising that their goal is to offer full degree programs in English. Despite the promises so far, these foreigners in the KT article are complaining that it just isn't happening.
Now why would SNU care about offering classes entirely in English? It all comes down to MONEY. SNU and other Korean schools are tripping over themselves trying to make this happen because Korea is bleeding its best and brightest (and those just below that level) overseas -- not only to the US and Canada, but now to Japanese schools like Waseda, where a student can complete an entire degree in English (with the exception of some required Japanese language courses, I heard). I actually have a former student or two enrolled in such programs right now.
Japan started the ball rolling, hoping to snatch-up and cash-in on the rich Asian students who aren't quite smart enough or adventurous enough (ie: scared to be so far from mama) to get into a full program at an English-speaking country. Now Korea has followed suit, only Korea is learning very quickly that they aren't able to provide programs such as this without native speakers of English. Some schools have tried to have their Korean profs. teach in English (my univ. included), and are failing miserably.
Most Korean profs. either can't do it, or don't want to do it! What's the alternative? Hire more foreign staff, in a variety of disciplines, to make the dream a reality.
Ultimately, this means they have to bite the bullet and start offering Ph.D positions to native speakers. The number of said positions are beginning to grow. My university has already told us about their goals to offer degree programs taught entirely in English, and we're not even a mid-level university in Seoul!
It'd be kind of hard for a Korean school to ignore a foreigner with a Korean Ph.D, wouldn't it? Especially from a SKY school like SNU? What is the university hiring committee, staffed by Yonsei and SNU grads, going to say? Would they say, "We won't even consider you, because Korean degrees are garbage?"
Yeah, right!
Really... think about it.... a Korean Ph.D might be considered poor overseas, but here it can land you a tenured position. A number of MA-holders who populate this very board have begun working on Ph.D's with Korean schools (and many of them ranked far lower than SNU).
I could have someone confused here, and if I do, my apologies, but ask PRagic where his Ph.D is from, and how far it has gotten him. In any case, a Korean Ph.D. can = a tenured position. For a lifer with family in Korea, that's a rather enticing idea.
It's also a very attractive thought for Korean in-laws who hear SNU and Ph.D. in the same sentence, and see dollar signs.
Trust me on this. This very topic was discussed at great length at a dinner -- right in front of me -- by my new family. Kudos to my wife for stepping-in and telling them I was planning on working on an MA from overseas. Quite entertaining to hear aunts, uncles, and cousins (many of whom you just met) deciding your entire future for you. I was slightly bothered by it all, but my wife laughed it off and told me not to take it too seriously.
Still.... |
OK, getting a PhD from a Korean university in order to get a tenure-track faculty position in Korea does make sense if you are a "lifer" in Korea. I get that.
But you speak Korean, don't you?
The idea of doing a graduate degree program 100% in English, in Korea, still seems very, very far-fetched. I guess it's a good future goal for Korean universities, but I can't imagine them actually pulling it off until many years from now, and only then if they can stimulate a little reverse brain-drain and entice more of those foreign-educated, English-speaking Korean (and gyopo) PhDs to come back to Korea and teach here. |
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