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Mosley
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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 Posted: Tue Sep 29, 2009 6:07 pm Post subject: |
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Fidel told journalist and writer Lee Lockwood years ago that if the Americans had used bikini-clad women to invade Cuba during the Bay of Pigs he would have let them in, or something very similar to that.
This is hardly surprising news. |
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Mosley
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Tue Sep 29, 2009 7:35 pm Post subject: |
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| No, not surprising to you or me...but there are still plenty of starry-eyed fans of this tyrant, ranging in age from 20-80, who still see him as a selfless revolutionary hero of the "masses". So, this provides bit of a reality check.... |
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Moldy Rutabaga
Joined: 01 Jul 2003
Location: Ansan, Korea
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| Posted: Tue Sep 29, 2009 7:42 pm Post subject: |
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Man, power is an aphrodesiac! Unless it's a lot of women with beard fetishes.
>if the Americans had used bikini-clad women to invade Cuba during the Bay of Pigs
Now, this makes me think of The Meaning of Life. If the women were wearing football helmets, all the better! |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Tue Sep 29, 2009 7:53 pm Post subject: |
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| Mosley wrote: |
| ...a selfless revolutionary hero of the "masses." |
I would say that Fidel was very much like this until the Missile Crisis, when he went off the deep end and never came back. Read Lee Lockwood's book.
Also, American Cold Warriors, including, for example, Desmond FitzGerald, respected him. If he had only occurred outside the Cold War, and if he could have articulated his leadership over Cuban affairs without so bitterly opposing the United States, and in all Latin America and the rest of the Third World, things would have developed very differently. |
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Mosley
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Tue Sep 29, 2009 9:29 pm Post subject: |
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In fairness, I think I'll be tempted to check out the Lockwood book, but...
you seem, Gopher(not one who I remember to defend the likes of Castro?) to let him off the hook. Regardless of Soviet sponsorship, he was the archtypical Communist tyrant-was he not? Show trials & summary executions at the beginning of his regime, for example.
Did he not declare himself a Marxist-Leninist well before the Missile Crisis?
Precious few M-Ls have ever proven themselves actual heroes of the "masses"-quite the contrary. |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Tue Sep 29, 2009 10:38 pm Post subject: |
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He very quickly became a dogmatic, Marxist-Leninist, antiAmerican dictator. But he had his moment, Mosley.
You may draw the line where you please. I draw my line when he urged Moscow to nuke the United States during the Missile Crisis. |
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DIsbell
Joined: 15 Oct 2008
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| Posted: Wed Sep 30, 2009 3:05 am Post subject: |
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let's not forget that the US tried to invade Cuba, which prompted his reaction.
I agree; Fidel definitely had his day. he did fall off of things though; he became too paranoid to pass leadership on. the unfortunate element is that he had at least some reason to be paranoid. |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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| Posted: Wed Sep 30, 2009 6:34 am Post subject: |
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| Gopher wrote: |
You may draw the line where you please. I draw my line when he urged Moscow to nuke the United States during the Missile Crisis. |
He loved his people so much he wanted turn the Cuban diaspora into fire. Sure, some of them are a tad hostile to his gov but most just wanted a nice life. Doesn't seem inline with a man who loves his people. |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Wed Sep 30, 2009 6:39 am Post subject: |
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| DIsbell wrote: |
| let's not forget that the US tried to invade Cuba, which prompted his reaction. |
"Who started it?" is an old issue in this discussion. Let us also not forget that the United States trained and semi-backed a Cuban-exile and not an American invasion because Fidel was exporting violent revolution all over the Caribbean and into Latin America, with preliminary moves into Africa as well.
As H. Kissinger once remarked re: S. Allende: remember, he opposed us. And one can ask, why should we not oppose him right back? |
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DIsbell
Joined: 15 Oct 2008
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| Posted: Thu Oct 01, 2009 1:04 am Post subject: |
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by "exported violent revolution" you mean supported people's movements against right-wing military dictatorships? yeah he did do that.
Did Fidel or Allende really have any aims of subverting the American government/people in America? No. Did America take action to subvert the governments/people of Chile and Cuba (among many other places)? Yes. |
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Summer Wine
Joined: 20 Mar 2005
Location: Next to a River
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| Posted: Thu Oct 01, 2009 1:37 am Post subject: |
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by "exported violent revolution" you mean supported people's movements against right-wing military dictatorships? yeah he did do that.
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He sent troops in civilian clothing to help support/propogate certain ideas.
post editted.
Right wing/ Left wingseem to have more to do with "did they support the chinese and the russians or the Spanish and the Americans" in many cases and less to do with thier actual views.
Though, in saying that. Chavez, seems to be looking for trouble that doesn't need to be found. I will respect him when he allows another to run for president of Venezuala, not before, regardless of who he blames for his dictatorship. |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Thu Oct 01, 2009 11:22 am Post subject: |
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| DIsbell wrote: |
by "exported violent revolution" you mean supported people's movements against right-wing military dictatorships? yeah he did do that.
Did Fidel or Allende really have any aims of subverting the American government/people in America? No. Did America take action to subvert the governments/people of Chile and Cuba (among many other places)? Yes. |
Why did your "right-wing military dictatorships" emerge in the first place?
Read C. Guevara's "Message to the Tricontinental" and be sure you understand its aims, which Guevara stated explicitly. See B. Loveman and T. Davies, Guerrilla Warfare and case studies. See P. Gleijeses, Conflicting Missions, on Castro's Cuba in Africa. See J. Dinges, The Condor Years, especially valuable on the JCR and its attempted continental-wide revolution and A. Pinochet and allies' well-known response to it.
You stand poised to repeat and then defend to the death the far-left's by now very clich� and tired master-narrative on what America did to Latin America -- even including these leftists' sanctimonious but still baseless claims to speak on behalf of "the people of X, Y, and/or Z." F. Castro never held an election. And S. Allende won the presidency on a plurality, where he had garned approximately 36% of the vote. Two-thirds of the people of Chile voted against him. The Sandinistas finally held an election, I believe, in 1996. And they lost (and to their credit, they accepted the results and retired from power). But we do not really need to listen to you, however. We can read N. Chomsky for ourselves, or we can google any number of H. Chavez or D. Ortega's recent speeches on the matter. |
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ontheway
Joined: 24 Aug 2005
Location: Somewhere under the rainbow...
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| Posted: Thu Oct 01, 2009 11:29 am Post subject: |
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| DIsbell wrote: |
by "exported violent revolution" you mean supported people's movements against right-wing military dictatorships? yeah he did do that.
Did Fidel or Allende really have any aims of subverting the American government/people in America? No. Did America take action to subvert the governments/people of Chile and Cuba (among many other places)? Yes. |
Fidel sent agents to subvert governments in Europe as well.
Fidel's European agents were in contact with local communist groups, local terror groups such as the Red Brigade, Pan Arab Nationalist groups, exiled Khomeni supporters, and muslim extreemists.
Fidel sought to spread lies, fascist-socialism and terror wherever opportunity presented itself. |
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Reggie
Joined: 21 Sep 2009
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| Posted: Fri Oct 02, 2009 1:07 am Post subject: |
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| Gopher wrote: |
| F. Castro never held an election. And S. Allende won the presidency on a plurality, where he had garned approximately 36% of the vote. Two-thirds of the people of Chile voted against him. The Sandinistas finally held an election, I believe, in 1996. And they lost (and to their credit, they accepted the results and retired from power). |
What does America care about elections? 58,000 Americans and millions of Vietnamese died because we cancelled the 1956 elections in Vietnam when it was obvious that Ho would win. We also helped overthrow Iran's democratically elected leader and isn't Iran just the poster child of American intervention?  In Guatemala, we had Arbenz overthrown even though he was elected. America doesn't care about elections.
And what does it matter if Allende had only 36% of the vote? What's the point? Bush got 47.87% of the vote in 2000 with Gore getting 48.38% of the vote. Do you think Bush's election was as illegitimate as Allende's?
Now, what do we have to show for any of what we've done? We're broke. |
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