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Trevor
Joined: 16 Nov 2005
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chris_J2
Joined: 17 Apr 2006
Location: From Brisbane, Au.
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 Posted: Sun Oct 04, 2009 7:14 am Post subject: Israel |
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If the US were to start attaching conditions for the $3 billion in economic & military aid it gives Israel every year, & insist on a firm roadmap for the creation of a separate Palestinean State, within 5-10 years, that would go a long way in easing ME tensions. The situation as it is now, sure the hell ain't working, so it's def worth a try, imho.
It takes two to tango, btw. Arab atrocities/ Hamas are every bit as bad as Israeli aggression. |
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proustme
Joined: 13 Jun 2009
Location: Nowon-gu
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| Posted: Sun Oct 04, 2009 7:38 am Post subject: |
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| Israel never signed a nuclear non-proliferation treaty. Iran did. |
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Trevor
Joined: 16 Nov 2005
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| Posted: Sun Oct 04, 2009 3:11 pm Post subject: |
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Oh, they never signed it? Well, sorry. My bad. They can have all the nukes they want then and not report it, like everyone else has to.
| proustme wrote: |
| Israel never signed a nuclear non-proliferation treaty. Iran did. |
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cherrycoke
Joined: 13 Sep 2009
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| Posted: Sun Oct 04, 2009 3:40 pm Post subject: Re: Israel |
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| chris_J2 wrote: |
If the US were to start attaching conditions for the $3 billion in economic & military aid it gives Israel every year, & insist on a firm roadmap for the creation of a separate Palestinean State, within 5-10 years, that would go a long way in easing ME tensions. The situation as it is now, sure the hell ain't working, so it's def worth a try, imho.
It takes two to tango, btw. Arab atrocities/ Hamas are every bit as bad as Israeli aggression. |
I'd have to disagree here on the facts. Just look at the number of deaths of both sides.
Palestinian deaths : 1010
Israeli deaths: 13
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jan/14/gaza-city-fighiting-israel-un
any person that chooses to side with Israel has been clearly drinking the cool-aid. Facts are facts, you have to be really crazy to interpret this data to think that Hamas is every bit as bad as Iraelis. If hamas is 'bad' Israel is 77x as bad just based on the numbers alone. It's a complete wash to say to they are the same.
Last edited by cherrycoke on Sun Oct 04, 2009 4:08 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Sergio Stefanuto
Joined: 14 May 2009
Location: UK
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| Posted: Sun Oct 04, 2009 3:59 pm Post subject: Re: Israel |
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| cherrycoke wrote: |
I'd have to disagree here on the facts. Just look at the number of deaths of both sides.
Palestinian deaths : 1001
Israeli deaths: 13
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Here's a slightly bigger picture:
http://img96.imageshack.us/img96/2774/56562278.png
http://img96.imageshack.us/img96/4126/ip2d.png
| cherrycoke wrote: |
| any person that chooses to side with Israel has been clearly drank the cool-aid. |
I absolutely hate that expression - "cool aid". Many folks are in need of a thesaurus. 
Anyway, cool aid such as Britain's leading organ of socialist santimony, the Guardian?
| cherrycoke wrote: |
| Facts are facts, you have to be really crazy to interpret this data to think that Hamas is every bit as bad as Iraelis |
Well, Chris_J2 did write "Arab atrocities/ Hamas are every bit as bad as Israeli aggression".
Admittedly, Israel still loses. But, if we were to let simple arithmetic - adding up the number of corpses - be our guide, Nazi Germany lost 6-9m lives compared to the UK less than 500,000 in World War II.
Tiny flaw. |
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Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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| Posted: Sun Oct 04, 2009 4:19 pm Post subject: |
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A relevant commentary from the Independent:
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Leaders of the rich nations have turned their fire on Iran, quite rightly. On Friday came news that the Islamic Republic had been building a secret uranium enrichment plant near Qom. Then the junta fired test missiles, to prove that the bearded ones have really big willies. Unlike Iraq under Saddam, there are, in Iran, nuclear developments that could lead to weapons of mass destruction. It is not an immediate but a future danger, say credible intelligence experts and indeed Barack Obama himself.
Suddenly the president has got uncharacteristically belligerent, instructing Iran to open up all its nuclear facilities for inspection if it wants to avoid "a path that is going to lead us to confrontation". In May, Obama stood in Washington with the hawkish Benjamin Netanyahu, who we were told was there to seek assurances that there would be no shift from the conventional US position of total and unconditional support for Israel's policies right or wrong, known and clandestine.
On Thursday the US, China, Britain, France, Russia and Germany meet in Geneva and, by that time, Iran will be expected to submit to international scrutiny. As a supporter of the now crushed and broken reformers in Iran, I back the ultimatum to the fanatic and bellicose Iranian President, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad. But what about that camel in the room? The one we all see but can't point out? What about the only power in the Middle East, also fanatic and aggressive, which has a vast stockpile of weapons enough to obliterate the region? Listen people, we need to talk about Israel. And soon. Like now. |
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| The Israeli human rights activist Gideon Spiro bravely asks that his country be subject to the same rules as Iran and all others in the Middle East: "Rein in Israel, compel it to accept a regime of nuclear disarmament and oblige it to open all nuclear, biological and chemical facilities and missile sites to international inspection." The US has leverage because it maintains and funds Israel. If Obama shies away from this, there can be no moral justification to go for Iran or North Korea or any other rogue state. And the leader whose election and dreams gave hope to millions thereby hastens the end of the world. |
http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/yasmin-alibhai-brown/yasmin-alibhaibrown-dont-israels-nuclear-weapons-count-1794275.html
Proliferation has long since got out of hand. Let's hope we do never suffer catastrophic consequences. |
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chris_J2
Joined: 17 Apr 2006
Location: From Brisbane, Au.
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| Posted: Sun Oct 04, 2009 4:37 pm Post subject: |
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cherrycoke, the atrocities did not suddenly start in 2008. Even when I was going to high school back in 1972, the PLO massacred the Israeli team at the Munich Olympics. Before that, there was the 1967 war. After, the Achille Lauro, Ma'alot & numerous other acts of terrorism.
Sergio Stefanuto has given a clearer picture of the big picture reality. And I'm not siding with either. Both are as bad as each other. Do you have a better solution than the creation of a separate Palestinian State?
East Timor in the Indonesian Archipelago seems to be working just fine. |
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Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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| Posted: Sun Oct 04, 2009 4:45 pm Post subject: |
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| chris_J2 wrote: |
cherrycoke, the atrocities did not suddenly start in 2008. Even when I was going to high school back in 1972, the PLO massacred the Israeli team at the Munich Olympics. Before that, there was the 1967 war. After, the Achille Lauro, Ma'alot & numerous other acts of terrorism.
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The PLO took Israeli hostages. Previously it had been common practice for Israel to take Palestinian hostages (and still is). Who knows if the PLO would have massacred the Israeli athletes - quite possibly not. The reason the Israeli athletes died was because the German police were extraordinarily incompetent, and decided to storm the jet and have a shootout with the unfortunate athletes caught in the middle. That's not to say that I approve of the athletes being taken in the first place (I have to put in that caveat because of the extraordinary idiocy demonstrated by many posters on this board), but that I have to point out to that an intent to massacre was not necessarily there.
I don't approve of Palestinians taking hostages, but it seems rather unfair that they are singled out for it when it has long been practice for Israelis to do the same, and on a far greater scale.
Most occupied peoples commit violence against their occupier. The French committed terrorism against their German occupiers in the forties. I've never quite understood why that was deemed OK, yet the Palestinian struggle is not. |
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Trevor
Joined: 16 Nov 2005
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| Posted: Sun Oct 04, 2009 4:52 pm Post subject: |
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| I'm not siding with either. Both are as bad as each other. |
Last edited by Trevor on Sun Nov 14, 2010 11:21 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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| Posted: Sun Oct 04, 2009 4:54 pm Post subject: |
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| Trevor wrote: |
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| I'm not siding with either. Both are as bad as each other. |
A lot of people fall into this trap. They think the most righteous thing to do is to blame both sides equally despite the barbaric disparity in hard numbers of casualties. |
It makes me think of the analogy of a rape victim scratching at the eyes of her violator, and then being condemned for it. If she wasn't being raped in the first place, there would be no need for her to resort to those tactics. And each scratch is held up as proof of her belligerence, when the wounds to her body are far greater than the scratches she occasionally lands on her rapist. |
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cherrycoke
Joined: 13 Sep 2009
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| Posted: Sun Oct 04, 2009 5:04 pm Post subject: |
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| When you deliberately try to equate the human losses and sufferring when it's clearly one-sided, you are being an apologist - in this case for the Israeli government. Even with the bigger data set the numbers still overwhelmingly show that the deaths and human suffering is one-sided. For someone to equate it is as I mentioned before is a complete wash based on the numbers. I'm not going delve into the subjectivity of it, just look at the numbers and ask yourself who is inflicting the most human suffering and deaths. Your answer shouldn't be they are both equal in this aspect if you are truly neutral and objective on the issue. |
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Sergio Stefanuto
Joined: 14 May 2009
Location: UK
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| Posted: Sun Oct 04, 2009 5:28 pm Post subject: |
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| cherrycoke wrote: |
| When you deliberately try to equate the human losses and sufferring when it's clearly one-sided, you are being an apologist - in this case for the Israeli government. |
Nobody's trying to equate anything. I merely showed that your 1001/13 deaths stat was based on the Israel-Hamas War only.
| cherrycoke wrote: |
| Even with the bigger data set the numbers still overwhelmingly show that the deaths and human suffering is one-sided. For someone to equate it is as I mentioned before is a complete wash based on the numbers. I'm not going delve into the subjectivity of it, just look at the numbers and ask yourself who is inflicting the most human suffering and deaths. |
I think I've already addressed this. Nazi Germany lost more lives than Britain and France combined. Simply looking at the number of corpses is superficial, juvenile even. Of course the Nazis lost more lives - they were the aggressors. So too the Palestinians and their 7th century female slavery cult, Islam.
| cherrycoke wrote: |
| Your answer shouldn't be they are both equal in this aspect if you are truly neutral and objective on the issue. |
The first lesson of history and politics is that there is no such thing.
If one were to be neutral and objective, perhaps it'd be a idea to include in one's analysis of "who is inflicting the most human suffering and deaths" facts suchs The Benefits of Israeli Occupation (and the countless mistakes made by Arab leaderships that've ranged from the merely shabby to the absolutely catastrophic)
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The infant mortality rate was reduced from 60 per 1,000 live births in 1968 to 15 per 1,000 in 2000; the GDP of the West Bank grew between 7% and 13% per year between 1967 and 1994.
Data provided by the UN Human Development program of 2005 [7] indicate that the economic difficulties experienced by the Palestinian Arabs were largely the result of policies of the Arafat regime and not from any oppression by the State of Israel. For instance, the second Intifada beginning in Sept. 2000 resulted ��in a sharp deterioration in living standards and life chances.� The poverty rate nearly tripled from 20% in 1999 to 55% in 2003.
By 2002, the West Bank�s GDP was one-tenth of what it was in 1993. |
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Kimbop
Joined: 31 Mar 2008
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| Posted: Sun Oct 04, 2009 5:51 pm Post subject: |
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| cherrycoke wrote: |
| I'm not going delve into the subjectivity of it, just look at the numbers and ask yourself who is inflicting the most human suffering and deaths. Your answer shouldn't be they are both equal in this aspect if you are truly neutral and objective on the issue. |
Your buddies Hamas and Hesbullah are "inflicting the most human suffering and deaths."
Isreal can be trusted with nukes. Iran can't.
My homie Ayn Rand sums it up well:
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AR: Further, why are the Arabs against Israel? (This is the main reason I support Israel.) The Arabs are one of the least developed cultures. They are typically nomads. Their culture is primitive, and they resent Israel because it's the sole beachhead of modern science and civilization on their continent. When you have civilized men fighting savages, you support the civilized men, no matter who they are. Israel is a mixed economy inclined toward socialism. But when it comes to the power of the mind�the development of industry in that wasted desert continent�versus savages who don't want to use their minds, then if one cares about the future of civilization, don't wait for the government to do something. Give whatever you can. This is the first time I've contributed to a public cause: helping Israel in an emergency. |
http://www.aynrand.org/site/PageServer?pagename=media_america_at_war_israeli_arab_conflict |
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ddeubel
Joined: 20 Jul 2005
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| Posted: Sun Oct 04, 2009 6:24 pm Post subject: |
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Isreal can be trusted with nukes. Iran can't.
My homie Ayn Rand sums it up well:
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AR: Further, why are the Arabs against Israel? (This is the main reason I support Israel.) The Arabs are one of the least developed cultures. They are typically nomads. Their culture is primitive, and they resent Israel because it's the sole beachhead of modern science and civilization on their continent. When you have civilized men fighting savages, you support the civilized men, no matter who they are. Israel is a mixed economy inclined toward socialism. But when it comes to the power of the mind�the development of industry in that wasted desert continent�versus savages who don't want to use their minds, then if one cares about the future of civilization, don't wait for the government to do something. Give whatever you can. This is the first time I've contributed to a public cause: helping Israel in an emergency. |
Kimbop,
Iranians are not Arabs. Ayn Rand is not a legitimate source of "anything". Get out of your "hood".
I don't trust any "military" ruled nation with nukes. Iran / N.Korea / Isreal all fit that bill. Military men like to break a few eggs to make an omlette.
Whether or not Israel signed the non-proliferation agreement is a mute question. In all cases, Israel should as any civilized nation must - allow for inspection of nuclear facilities to ensure safety (that stuff travels, just ask the deaths in Egypt and the Sinai from the radioactivity). A nation is not an isolated entity when it comes to nuclear technology - whether that be for military or civilian purposes.
Sanctions should be placed on Israel just like Iran. No inspectors allowed in, sanctions.
DD
http://eflclassroom.com |
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