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cherrycoke
Joined: 13 Sep 2009
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 Posted: Tue Oct 06, 2009 4:33 pm Post subject: gg, USD. |
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http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/the-demise-of-the-dollar-1798175.html
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The demise of the dollar
In a graphic illustration of the new world order, Arab states have launched secret moves with China, Russia and France to stop using the US currency for oil trading
By Robert Fisk
Tuesday, 6 October 2009
Iran announced late last month that its foreign currency reserves would henceforth be held in euros rather than dollars.
In the most profound financial change in recent Middle East history, Gulf Arabs are planning � along with China, Russia, Japan and France � to end dollar dealings for oil, moving instead to a basket of currencies including the Japanese yen and Chinese yuan, the euro, gold and a new, unified currency planned for nations in the Gulf Co-operation Council, including Saudi Arabia, Abu Dhabi, Kuwait and Qatar.
Secret meetings have already been held by finance ministers and central bank governors in Russia, China, Japan and Brazil to work on the scheme, which will mean that oil will no longer be priced in dollars.
The plans, confirmed to The Independent by both Gulf Arab and Chinese banking sources in Hong Kong, may help to explain the sudden rise in gold prices, but it also augurs an extraordinary transition from dollar markets within nine years.
The Americans, who are aware the meetings have taken place � although they have not discovered the details � are sure to fight this international cabal which will include hitherto loyal allies Japan and the Gulf Arabs. Against the background to these currency meetings, Sun Bigan, China's former special envoy to the Middle East, has warned there is a risk of deepening divisions between China and the US over influence and oil in the Middle East. "Bilateral quarrels and clashes are unavoidable," he told the Asia and Africa Review. "We cannot lower vigilance against hostility in the Middle East over energy interests and security."
This sounds like a dangerous prediction of a future economic war between the US and China over Middle East oil � yet again turning the region's conflicts into a battle for great power supremacy. China uses more oil incrementally than the US because its growth is less energy efficient. The transitional currency in the move away from dollars, according to Chinese banking sources, may well be gold. An indication of the huge amounts involved can be gained from the wealth of Abu Dhabi, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait and Qatar who together hold an estimated $2.1 trillion in dollar reserves.
The decline of American economic power linked to the current global recession was implicitly acknowledged by the World Bank president Robert Zoellick. "One of the legacies of this crisis may be a recognition of changed economic power relations," he said in Istanbul ahead of meetings this week of the IMF and World Bank. But it is China's extraordinary new financial power � along with past anger among oil-producing and oil-consuming nations at America's power to interfere in the international financial system � which has prompted the latest discussions involving the Gulf states.
Brazil has shown interest in collaborating in non-dollar oil payments, along with India. Indeed, China appears to be the most enthusiastic of all the financial powers involved, not least because of its enormous trade with the Middle East.
China imports 60 per cent of its oil, much of it from the Middle East and Russia. The Chinese have oil production concessions in Iraq � blocked by the US until this year � and since 2008 have held an $8bn agreement with Iran to develop refining capacity and gas resources. China has oil deals in Sudan (where it has substituted for US interests) and has been negotiating for oil concessions with Libya, where all such contracts are joint ventures.
Furthermore, Chinese exports to the region now account for no fewer than 10 per cent of the imports of every country in the Middle East, including a huge range of products from cars to weapon systems, food, clothes, even dolls. In a clear sign of China's growing financial muscle, the president of the European Central Bank, Jean-Claude Trichet, yesterday pleaded with Beijing to let the yuan appreciate against a sliding dollar and, by extension, loosen China's reliance on US monetary policy, to help rebalance the world economy and ease upward pressure on the euro.
Ever since the Bretton Woods agreements � the accords after the Second World War which bequeathed the architecture for the modern international financial system � America's trading partners have been left to cope with the impact of Washington's control and, in more recent years, the hegemony of the dollar as the dominant global reserve currency.
The Chinese believe, for example, that the Americans persuaded Britain to stay out of the euro in order to prevent an earlier move away from the dollar. But Chinese banking sources say their discussions have gone too far to be blocked now. "The Russians will eventually bring in the rouble to the basket of currencies," a prominent Hong Kong broker told The Independent. "The Brits are stuck in the middle and will come into the euro. They have no choice because they won't be able to use the US dollar."
Chinese financial sources believe President Barack Obama is too busy fixing the US economy to concentrate on the extraordinary implications of the transition from the dollar in nine years' time. The current deadline for the currency transition is 2018.
The US discussed the trend briefly at the G20 summit in Pittsburgh; the Chinese Central Bank governor and other officials have been worrying aloud about the dollar for years. Their problem is that much of their national wealth is tied up in dollar assets.
"These plans will change the face of international financial transactions," one Chinese banker said. "America and Britain must be very worried. You will know how worried by the thunder of denials this news will generate."
Iran announced late last month that its foreign currency reserves would henceforth be held in euros rather than dollars. Bankers remember, of course, what happened to the last Middle East oil producer to sell its oil in euros rather than dollars. A few months after Saddam Hussein trumpeted his decision, the Americans and British invaded Iraq. |
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cherrycoke
Joined: 13 Sep 2009
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| Posted: Tue Oct 06, 2009 4:36 pm Post subject: |
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Sean O'Grady: China will overtake America, the only question is when
Few things would be more powerfully symbolic of the shift in the balance of global economic power than to have oil traded in the Chinese renminbi rather than the American dollar.
True, no one is going to price a barrel of West Texas Intermediate Crude in renminbi tomorrow. But you can see how that could change. Oil is traded in dollars for economic reasons � not sentimental ones. The oil business pretty much started in the US (vividly portrayed in the film There Will be Blood), the giant oil companies are still mostly American, and the US has long been the world's largest consumer, importer and one of the largest producers of oil. The presidency of George W Bush offered ample evidence of the intimate connections between politics and oil. And the dollar is easily the most traded currency in the world. As such, it makes sense to trade oil in dollars.
Yet the financial tectonic plates are shifting � fast. Yesterday the president of the World Bank, Robert Zoellick, articulated what must be weighing on the minds of many Western policy-makers. A legacy of the current crisis "may be a recognition of changed economic power relations". In other words, the recession has accelerated the rise of China. The brutal truth is that for most of the next decade China's economy will grow by more than 10 per cent a year; America's by less than 2 per cent. China will soon be the world's largest economy, and largest creditor nation, a position enjoyed by a pre-eminent America in the 1950s. China will also be the largest consumer of oil, which will help push trading in it and other commodities towards a "basket" of currencies.
Now America is the world's greatest debtor, she can no longer sustain her role as protector of the world's only reserve currency in the long term. The humbling of Wall Street was proof that the American system was not invincible. Suddenly, a G20 embracing China, India and the other emerging powers is the only forum that matters. China has helped bail out our banks. Spats with the Americans and Europeans are set to grow more bitter. Yesterday the head of the IMF, Dominique Strauss-Kahn and the president of the European Central Bank, Jean-Claude Trichet, resumed their attack on the value of the yuan. Next will come an increasing US resentment at the vast debts built up with China, and, in turn, Chinese nervousness about their long-term worth. |
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/comment/sean-ogrady-china-will-overtake-america-the-only-question-is-when-1798176.html |
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mole
Joined: 06 Feb 2003
Location: Act III
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| Posted: Tue Oct 06, 2009 6:03 pm Post subject: |
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What is "gg?"
Wouldn't R.I.P. be appropriate? |
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proustme
Joined: 13 Jun 2009
Location: Nowon-gu
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| Posted: Tue Oct 06, 2009 6:41 pm Post subject: |
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In Yahoo! Pool games, 'gg' means 'good game'  |
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cherrycoke
Joined: 13 Sep 2009
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| Posted: Tue Oct 06, 2009 6:56 pm Post subject: |
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| gg is a reference to starcraft. "good game". |
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kabrams
Joined: 15 Mar 2008
Location: your Dad's house
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| Posted: Tue Oct 06, 2009 7:24 pm Post subject: |
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When will we all figure out that money is only worth what we say it is?
Seriously, if every person in the world sat down one day and said, "So what?" and began to use/make our own materials, what would happen? Would money begin to kill us?
I don't know, lol.
Human beings are so fickle. And who cares? In another 500 years, who is going to be on top? Nigeria? Will it even matter? |
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visitorq
Joined: 11 Jan 2008
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| Posted: Tue Oct 06, 2009 7:39 pm Post subject: |
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| kabrams wrote: |
When will we all figure out that money is only worth what we say it is?
Seriously, if every person in the world sat down one day and said, "So what?" and began to use/make our own materials, what would happen? Would money begin to kill us?
I don't know, lol.
Human beings are so fickle. And who cares? In another 500 years, who is going to be on top? Nigeria? Will it even matter? |
If you don't think it matters, then please allow me to take your money off your hands...
Obviously it's hugely important what happens to the dollar. People in the US and elsewhere keep their savings (hard earned) in dollars. Debasing the currency causes it to lose value, which is basically the same as stealing when we're talking about the government overspending and central banks attaching interest onto money they've created out of thin air.
Anyway, the US dollar has been a fraud since 1913 - a deliberate ponzi scheme created by the banking establishment through the private, criminal Fed. The new move is to replace the waning dollar by creating the same kind of ponzi scheme on a global scale, issuing a new global fiat currency (SDRs) out of thin air (with interest attached) through the World Bank. This has been their intention for quite some time. It will serve to further bankrupt the world, erode national sovereignty of all countries pegged to the new currency, and consolidate power into the hands of the few elite who control its issuance. |
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kabrams
Joined: 15 Mar 2008
Location: your Dad's house
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| Posted: Tue Oct 06, 2009 7:49 pm Post subject: |
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| visitorq wrote: |
| kabrams wrote: |
When will we all figure out that money is only worth what we say it is?
Seriously, if every person in the world sat down one day and said, "So what?" and began to use/make our own materials, what would happen? Would money begin to kill us?
I don't know, lol.
Human beings are so fickle. And who cares? In another 500 years, who is going to be on top? Nigeria? Will it even matter? |
If you don't think it matters, then please allow me to take your money off your hands...
Obviously it's hugely important what happens to the dollar. People in the US and elsewhere keep their savings (hard earned) in dollars. Debasing the currency causes it to lose value, which is basically the same as stealing when we're talking about the government overspending and central banks attaching interest onto money they've created out of thin air.
Anyway, the US dollar has been a fraud since 1913 - a deliberate ponzi scheme created by the banking establishment through the private, criminal Fed. The new move is to replace the waning dollar by creating the same kind of ponzi scheme on a global scale, issuing a new global fiat currency (SDRs) out of thin air (with interest attached) through the World Bank. This has been their intention for quite some time. It will serve to further bankrupt the world, erode national sovereignty of all countries pegged to the new currency, and consolidate power into the hands of the few elite who control its issuance. |
You obviously didn't read my post.
LOL. |
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visitorq
Joined: 11 Jan 2008
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| Posted: Tue Oct 06, 2009 8:35 pm Post subject: |
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| kabrams wrote: |
| visitorq wrote: |
| kabrams wrote: |
When will we all figure out that money is only worth what we say it is?
Seriously, if every person in the world sat down one day and said, "So what?" and began to use/make our own materials, what would happen? Would money begin to kill us?
I don't know, lol.
Human beings are so fickle. And who cares? In another 500 years, who is going to be on top? Nigeria? Will it even matter? |
If you don't think it matters, then please allow me to take your money off your hands...
Obviously it's hugely important what happens to the dollar. People in the US and elsewhere keep their savings (hard earned) in dollars. Debasing the currency causes it to lose value, which is basically the same as stealing when we're talking about the government overspending and central banks attaching interest onto money they've created out of thin air.
Anyway, the US dollar has been a fraud since 1913 - a deliberate ponzi scheme created by the banking establishment through the private, criminal Fed. The new move is to replace the waning dollar by creating the same kind of ponzi scheme on a global scale, issuing a new global fiat currency (SDRs) out of thin air (with interest attached) through the World Bank. This has been their intention for quite some time. It will serve to further bankrupt the world, erode national sovereignty of all countries pegged to the new currency, and consolidate power into the hands of the few elite who control its issuance. |
You obviously didn't read my post.
LOL. |
Obviously I did read it. I guess you're just confused with yourself. |
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Rusty Shackleford
Joined: 08 May 2008
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| Posted: Tue Oct 06, 2009 8:42 pm Post subject: |
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| kabrams wrote: |
When will we all figure out that money is only worth what we say it is?
Seriously, if every person in the world sat down one day and said, "So what?" and began to use/make our own materials, what would happen? Would money begin to kill us?
I don't know, lol.
Human beings are so fickle. And who cares? In another 500 years, who is going to be on top? Nigeria? Will it even matter? |
This isn't likely to happen, considering that money, (well, private savings at least) had to be produced in some way. Those savings represent an amount of goods and services at one point in time. When the govt mandates a currency that isn't sound. It really is stealing as the value of those goods and services are eroded through expansion of the money supply. It's like if I harvested some grain and the govt came along and nibbled a little piece every day.
So, really money does have a specific value. Despite that value eroding away to nothing. |
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kabrams
Joined: 15 Mar 2008
Location: your Dad's house
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| Posted: Wed Oct 07, 2009 7:16 pm Post subject: |
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| visitorq wrote: |
| kabrams wrote: |
| visitorq wrote: |
| kabrams wrote: |
When will we all figure out that money is only worth what we say it is?
Seriously, if every person in the world sat down one day and said, "So what?" and began to use/make our own materials, what would happen? Would money begin to kill us?
I don't know, lol.
Human beings are so fickle. And who cares? In another 500 years, who is going to be on top? Nigeria? Will it even matter? |
If you don't think it matters, then please allow me to take your money off your hands...
Obviously it's hugely important what happens to the dollar. People in the US and elsewhere keep their savings (hard earned) in dollars. Debasing the currency causes it to lose value, which is basically the same as stealing when we're talking about the government overspending and central banks attaching interest onto money they've created out of thin air.
Anyway, the US dollar has been a fraud since 1913 - a deliberate ponzi scheme created by the banking establishment through the private, criminal Fed. The new move is to replace the waning dollar by creating the same kind of ponzi scheme on a global scale, issuing a new global fiat currency (SDRs) out of thin air (with interest attached) through the World Bank. This has been their intention for quite some time. It will serve to further bankrupt the world, erode national sovereignty of all countries pegged to the new currency, and consolidate power into the hands of the few elite who control its issuance. |
You obviously didn't read my post.
LOL. |
Obviously I did read it. I guess you're just confused with yourself. |
Sure thing, buddy! |
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Triban
Joined: 14 Jul 2009
Location: Suwon Station
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| Posted: Thu Oct 08, 2009 6:39 pm Post subject: |
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Kabrams is talking about a barter/trade system where people produce goods and barter the value of them with others, and then trade said goods for what they require. While this is an excellent system in my opinion, it is no longer feasible due to the globalization of our economies. However, if we could work out some sort of connected chain where we produce things to receive things we desire, we would all have what we needed.
That idea, however, is communist. And communism, we all know, is BAD. |
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Old Gil
Joined: 26 Sep 2009
Location: Got out! olleh!
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| Posted: Sun Oct 11, 2009 7:34 am Post subject: |
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| China has to grow at 10% for the next 20 years to be able to compete and remain internally stable, which it's done so far, but to continue at that pace would be incredibly difficult. The CCP has been losing control in a lot of regions and should there be a 1-2 year period of joblessness the whole place could go kaput for a while and stagnate the economy for a decade. |
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visitorq
Joined: 11 Jan 2008
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| Posted: Sun Oct 11, 2009 10:25 am Post subject: |
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| Old Gil wrote: |
| China has to grow at 10% for the next 20 years to be able to compete and remain internally stable, which it's done so far, but to continue at that pace would be incredibly difficult. The CCP has been losing control in a lot of regions and should there be a 1-2 year period of joblessness the whole place could go kaput for a while and stagnate the economy for a decade. |
China's entire economy is basically leveraged against the 2+ trillion dollar surplus they've accumulated through exports and bond purchases over the years. They're totally hooked on the ponzi scheme. When the dollar goes kaput, so will the Chinese economy.
What happens next is the quintillion dollar question... presumably the US dollar will hyperinflate, and will have to be written off (or re-issued as a "new" dollar) basically forsaking all the debt held by the Chinese. This would collapse pretty well every currency on earth, resulting in a total global financial meltdown. This is already in the works thanks to bailout bubble created by Bush and Obama (the largest bubble ever seen in the history of the world by far).
At that point we would then expect the World Bank to step in with its new global currency and peg all other currencies, including the (new) US dollar, to it. This would be the "new world order" everyone is talking about, ushered in with much pomp, as the bankers (who caused the crises in the first place) take full credit (no pun intended) for setting things right...
All nations (including China) will then be collectively indebted to the world central bank and hooked on the new source of credit (ie. fiat money created out of thin air by the bankers, and issued as debt) and forced to pay perpetual interest on it - just as they are individually indebted to their respective national central banks (controlled by a few elite people) already.
In short, this is what the international bankers have been dreaming about for centuries. It will give them total control above the sovereignty of individual nation states. Effectively a non-democratic "world government" run by financial oligarchs. And it's not a conspiracy theory; much of it is actually being openly announced already in the mainstream media. |
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