Korean Job Discussion Forums

[Nowhere Man]

So, in relation to a previous post on capitalism/corporatism shenanigans, I'd like to turn my attention to another �ism� currently being abused: socialism.

From certain parties, a great deal of hoopla is being made of �socialist� European countries, especially in regard to their healthcare and economic systems, and especially especially as compared to the United States', um, non-socialist system?

So, what European countries are socialist!? The UK? No. Germany? No. France? No. There are no �socialist� countries in Europe. The proper term here is �mixed economy�. They're all a blend of socialism and capitalism (yes, capitalism). They vary in terms of how these concepts are mixed. Now, in light of discussion I see both on this board and further afield, it may come as a surprise to some that (drum roll...) the United States of America is also a mixed economy! It is a mixture of both capitalism and socialism.

Now, some might roll their eyes and say, �duh�, but this duhs not justify people rolling into town meetings and screaming �SOCIALISM�.

That is a ploy intended to portray �social interventionism� in one area as full-on Leninist/Maoist communism. This is a strawman.

Obama, not unlike Clinton, is an extremely centrist leader in this respect. He isn't proposing nationalized healthcare, but rather an option in light of the blazingly obvious evidence that private insurance fails to provide the legitimate service it should. In other words, all bandying of �corporatism� aside, healthcare providers and insurance companies have (quite naturally under freer capitalist circumstances) focused themselves on profit in favor of the essential services they provide. In other other words, private healthcare, as a result of their own practices, has brought government to their own doorstep via the practice of bleeding the healthy of their money while turning their backs on those in need of treatment. Don't get me wrong. This IS good business in a perverted sort of way, but it's not a good way to provide what is an integral form of infrastructure to a country.

In mixed economies throughout the world, government typically provides:

-roads
-education
-emergency services
-law enforcement
-utilities (and perhaps communications infrastructure)

Now, how do you feel about that?

a) these are essential services that I don't want some private entity dangling over my head like a carrot
or
b) SOCIALISM!!!

It just so happens that

-healthcare

is fairly unique in terms of the US not including it in the above

So, what are the arguments against having a public healthcare option?

1) We can't afford it
Hmm...We spend a bazillion dollars on defense, and the US Armed Forces is probably the largest SOCIALIST entity functioning within our mixed system.

2) Government is inefficient
Well, government is trying to intervene because private healthcare has maximized efficiency by simply not providing healthcare to the �inefficient�.

3) IT'S SOCIALISM!!!
No, public heathcare would be a great leap forward, not a Great Leap Forward.

4) The free market will take care of it.
Yes, the free market is the great Santa Claus of this recession (or call it a depression). I really like freer markets in some respects. Japanese cars have been kicking the crap out of GM for a good 30 years. Having a car is a choice. Free markets are amoral. In some ways, that's even good. Healthcare should not be for profit. It is positively loony to say that socialism is responsible for all of the pollution in the world. As a brief example, socialism didn't even exist when the buffalo and passenger pigeon were destroyed by short-term capitalists. Laissez faire is amoral. Suggesting that charity would cover essential social needs is to pretend such needs don't exist. Essential services should, at the least, be open to government contract, but never turned over to purely private interests. Free markets remain a myth, they should, and some people these days are ideologically challenged.

Key points:

-moves toward �big S� Socialism are not on the table at this time and a distraction

-Those who try to isolate corporatism from capitalism should also be ready to differentiate between socialism and mixed economies

-Beware the Libertarians. They're at some zealous apex of their young history. If they can actually get more than a handful of people elected on more than a couple of planks in a platform, they'll come back down to Earth. That's when we'll see what they're about.

[seonsengnimble]

Couldn't agree more. While I would love it if America had a healthcare system like France or England's, I wouldn't mind something like Korea's. Granted, I wouldn't want the doctors or hospitals, but the insurance seems like a pretty practical setup. You can get public or private. Private is generally cheaper but offers less coverage. Public is paid for by the people who are enrolled in it, and it's priced based on income. Adjustments would be needed for America, however. A doctor's visit without insurance here is around 10-40K whereas a US doctor's visit is more like $100-200.

[Kimbop]

The government OWES me free healthcare. No need to be responsible, take care of myself, or even look for a job, because the nanny state will provide: 1) My medical treatment 2) My healthy food 3) My housing 4) My schooling. I'm planning on having 5 kids, and I see no need to study hard in school. Heck, my kids can get a unionized janitor job when they grow up, so need to force them to better themselves. Anyone who disagrees with me is a selfish moderate-caucasian-democrat whose hardworking daddy should be ashamed of himself for supporting slavery 150 years ago.

[ontheway]

Add to the list of words which Nowhere man has not learned the meaning of: mixed economy.

Add to the list of historical events which Nowhere man has not read the history of: the extinction of the carrier pigeon and near extinction of the buffalo.


Really. It's back to school time for you Nowhereman, for your information is wrong and just nowhere, man.

[Street Magic]

[Nowhere Man]

[Nowhere Man]

[Troutslayer]

[Street Magic]

[catman]

[Kimbop]

[Nowhere Man]

[Street Magic]

[Kimbop]

Public housing is free in the sense that the welfare assistance office pays the rent.

An all-encompassing state-controlled entity such as univeral healthcare is another cog in the welfare trap. Goodbye personal responsibility.

I don;t need medicare, welfare checks, or daycare assistance for my kids. I am very capable and hardworking, and beleive it or not-- I can fend for myself. I also tell people to better themselves; to strive for great things.

I just remembered: Along with roads and a military, I will also pay taxes to have ajumas clean papers off the streets at 5AM.

[Troutslayer]

Look, I support some form of nationalized health care. As we all know, the U.S. is the only inudustrialized nation NOT to have it. BUT....what I don't want is capital hill shoving a bill over 1000 pages down our throats.

If the U.S. can learn how to create a natioal plan that benefits everyone, yet avoids the pitfalls of other countries with socialized medicince, I am up for it. If I have to pay a bit more in taxes, that is fine as long as...

1. That money is being used properly (LOL!)
2. I can use my plan across state lines
3. Have options as to which plan I need/want (I do like Obamas idea of creating competition in that market).
4. Be assured that I recieve top notch health care under any plan I choose.

Now......how can we make higher education more accessible to everyone? I guess that is a different topic.


slayer of trout